More Urgeok Musings : Most Men Hate Women

[ChronoGrl]

I have to say that I nearly universally agree with Urge except with the usage of the word "hate."

I don't believe that men necessarily "hate" women. I believe that it's a perpetuated ingrained sense of disrespect that permeates through our patriarchal society.

But I don't think that men necessarily consider it "disrespect." This "disrespect" comes from a chauvinistic set of expectations that, when a woman does not meet those expectations (ie satisfy physical need or want to diverge from the maternal role, etc.), men subconsciously label these acts with demeaning terms ("bitches" amongst one of them).

[urgeok2]

every time i read a post where folks cite 'hate' as being too strong ... i try to see it that way ... but man, i'm struggling with it.

maybe its 40% hate
30% strongly dislike
20% tolerate
10% love

i think the hate i've seen has just been so overwhealmingly ugly and loud that it seems more than it is ?

shit - i didnt even mention a lot of other stuff. like the lovely way japanese culturally value their women - among others, violent porn,
(i've actually seen - and i didnt know it was going to be this - porn where guys force themselves down a girls throat violently and hold her nose - making her choke, gag and puke. believe me - the girls dont enjoy themselves.

i've never seen a more vile example of the hatred of women in my life - it was fucking disgusting - not the puking - the thought that it could not only turn on the participant - but the viewers creating a demand for this garbage.


i'm sorry - but hate just keeps coming back.


by the way - i know people who love their wives ... but consider all other women to be unworthy bitches ... complete contempt (not as a misguided pro-wife chivalry - but a complete dislike ... it's bizzare..

and examples like this led me to believe that most women wont even know this exists - or believe it

[Phalanx]

Hm...Honestly, most chicks annoy me, I got m'self hooked up one that doesn't...or it seems like she makes it all worthwhile.
I think how they annoy me mainly is actually that they seem to let their hearts desire guide them a little too much, overlooking clear faults with their male companions in some cases even abuse...the males in question of course thrive on this, it's a bit of a perpetual cycle.
My mother is actually one of these women, claiming she hooked up with one abusive or headfucked asshole after another, making excuses like "it was for the kids" when it seemed to be she'd been programmed to just take abuse.
Sad, guess it might've ran in the family.
I'm just glad I'm not some abusive cunt, it's most of what I ever saw.

That said, I find even more guys annoying than girls - evoking feelings far closer to hatred than I'd boast for most women, to the point I'd say I generally prefer the company of women.

Not much into people in general, so I might not be the best example.

re - the porn you're talking about urg...that shit's fucked up, I've seen the same thing, people that do that, and/or subscribe to that, are pretty fucked up, like theyre out to see women get exploited/hurt.
Yech.

[Ferox13]

i didnt even mention a lot of other stuff. like the lovely way japanese culturally value their women - among others, violent porn,
(i've actually seen - and i didnt know it was going to be this - porn where guys force themselves down a girls throat violently and hold her nose - making her choke, gag and puke. believe me - the girls dont enjoy themselves.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you totally but there is also quiet a bit of S&M/BDSM porn where the man is the bottom (both gay and Hetro) where they are bound/beaten/needles inserted thru scrotums and hot wax dripped on genitals - so it does work both ways.Of course there is just as much BDSM with female bottoms too..

Its hard to make a general statement tosay that the' girls don't enjoy themselves'. In some scenarios, the person getting 'hurt' does get some thing from - 'enjoy' might not be the right word but it definally something voluntary and something that the get a positive experience from..

But also as you stated there are films where women are taken advantage of - I know film makers do put women into situations where they can't back out etc - producer/'porn star' Max hardcore is a scumbag who is notorious for this..

[urgeok2]

Originally Posted by Ferox13

Not that I'm disagreeing with you totally but there is also quiet a bit of S&M/BDSM porn where the man is the bottom (both gay and Hetro) where they are bound/beaten/needles inserted thru scrotums and hot wax dripped on genitals - so it does work both ways.Of course there is just as much BDSM with female bottoms too..
.

yeah i know what you're getting at - but in my example - man there is no comparrison.

no pleasure whatsovever for the woman. no excitement from pain - just pure scorn and hate.

[Ferox13]

Yeah i know what you are talking about - the forementioned Gonzo Max Hardcore type porn....

I would be pretty certain there is gay versions of that type of shit too - so i guess that would be proof of men hating men stuff :)

[_____V_____]

If you include the Jap society's portrayal of women in their cinema, especially underground stuff, "hate" is not even a strong word at all.

And I dont think "contempt" fits, either.

[ChronoGrl]

Originally Posted by urgeok2

every time i read a post where folks cite 'hate' as being too strong ... i try to see it that way ... but man, i'm struggling with it.

maybe its 40% hate
30% strongly dislike
20% tolerate
10% love

i think the hate i've seen has just been so overwhealmingly ugly and loud that it seems more than it is ?

shit - i didnt even mention a lot of other stuff. like the lovely way japanese culturally value their women - among others, violent porn,
(i've actually seen - and i didnt know it was going to be this - porn where guys force themselves down a girls throat violently and hold her nose - making her choke, gag and puke. believe me - the girls dont enjoy themselves.

i've never seen a more vile example of the hatred of women in my life - it was fucking disgusting - not the puking - the thought that it could not only turn on the participant - but the viewers creating a demand for this garbage.


i'm sorry - but hate just keeps coming back.


by the way - i know people who love their wives ... but consider all other women to be unworthy bitches ... complete contempt (not as a misguided pro-wife chivalry - but a complete dislike ... it's bizzare..

and examples like this led me to believe that most women wont even know this exists - or believe it

You misunderstand me.

Here's the thing - I guess I'm making more of a semantic argument here. I'm not saying that "hate" is too strong at all. I think that the word "hate" is too simplistic, Urge.

The reason why you see exploitation, sexploitation, snuff, abuse - Is because these cultures do not even see women as being remotely equal to Men. It's a lack of respect and a lack of consideration for women being other human beings. In this case, it's not necessarily about hate (sometimes it is I am sure)... But ubiquitously, women are not considered as being human to begin with; they're treated like animals, dogs servants. It's not hate; it's a complete and utter disregard for female humanity.

The reason why men (in MM's example) refer to women as "bitches" has nothing to do with hate - it's a complete lack of consideration or empathy. Patriarchy teaches us that the weaker sex is put on this planet to serve as the empty vessel for our procreation and servitude of Men. It's not always "hate." That is WAY too simple. If you don't consider a woman to be human, it's disrespect, condescension, ignorance.

That's not to say that there isn't hate. You just have to look at the issue more holistically.

[urgeok2]

Originally Posted by ChronoGrl

You misunderstand me.

Here's the thing - I guess I'm making more of a semantic argument here. I'm not saying that "hate" is too strong at all. I think that the word "hate" is too simplistic, Urge.

The reason why you see exploitation, sexploitation, snuff, abuse - Is because these cultures do not even see women as being remotely equal to Men. It's a lack of respect and a lack of consideration for women being other human beings. In this case, it's not necessarily about hate (sometimes it is I am sure)... But ubiquitously, women are not considered as being human to begin with; they're treated like animals, dogs servants. It's not hate; it's a complete and utter disregard for female humanity.

The reason why men (in MM's example) refer to women as "bitches" has nothing to do with hate - it's a complete lack of consideration or empathy. Patriarchy teaches us that the weaker sex is put on this planet to serve as the empty vessel for our procreation and servitude of Men. It's not always "hate." That is WAY too simple. If you don't consider a woman to be human, it's disrespect, condescension, ignorance.

That's not to say that there isn't hate. You just have to look at the issue more holistically.

thats definately the bigger picture scenario which i believe to be true.

[ChronoGrl]

Originally Posted by urgeok2

thats definately the bigger picture scenario which i believe to be true.

See? I KNEW we were fighting on the same team.

I'm not ignorant to say that there aren't men out there that hate women, but the bigger issue is honestly gender bias that permeates throughout society. Unfortunately, it manifests it self more violently in different places (ie Asia, Saudia Arabia, etc).

The reason why I diverge from the word "hate" is that you can make the argument that these Men still love Their Women, though (notice the purposeful possessive pronoun here); Women are Their Mothers, Their Sisters, Their Wives, Their Objects - the Woman existing as a byproduct of the Men (thank you Adam for lending me your rib). Patriarchal society has carved out these restricted gender roles and as soon as a woman diverges from that role - Men feel threatened. It's not necessarily hate. It's gender expectations. I hate it - it drives me crazy, it depresses me, and, quite frankly it's refreshing to hear someone (particularly a Man) bring up these issues. Sure, feminism has come a long way, but we still have a long way to go (especially abroad - no pun intended).

...

And people say feminism is dead.