More Urgeok Musings : Most Men Hate Women

[Angra]

Originally Posted by newb

WoW........I'm awol for 1 day and miss a doozy of a thread.

I get where urge is coming from....run into these kind of people ALL the time. But like urge,,,I don't choose to associate with them....but they are there....in abundance.

My feeling on woman are much different. My wife is pretty much the glue that holds the family together...I would be lost without her.We've been married for over 25 years and I have NEVER cheated. Sure I go "out with the guys" once in a while....and she goes "out with the girls" but for the most part its the two of us....together......two peas in a pod....wait...I feel a song coming on



I see the crystal raindrops fall
And the beauty of it all
when the sun comes shining through
To make those rainbows in my mind
When I think of you some time
And I want to spend some time with you

CHORUS:Just the two of us
We can make it if we try
Just the two of us
Just the two of us
Building castles in the sky
Just the two of us
You and I
We look for love, no time for tears
Wasted waters's all that is
And it don't make no flowers grow
Good things might come to those who wait
Not to those who wait to late
We got to go for all we know

Please Newb.. The "mushy thread" is further down the page.

[newb]

Originally Posted by Angra

Please Newb.. The "mushy thread" is further down the page.

Just telling it like it is bro.

You see these old couples around and think...."look at them....they barely even speak to each other". The truth is....after 25 years together..speech is not necessary......communication is all telepathic.




you will see........soon you will find a female Gary Sinese and fall madly in love...get married....and have little Gary Sinese's.

[Angra]

Originally Posted by newb

Just telling it like it is bro.

You see these old couples around and think...."look at them....they barely even speak to each other". The truth is....after 25 years together..speech is not necessary......communication is all telepathic.




you will see........soon you will find a female Gary Sinese and fall madly in love...get married....and have little Gary Sinese's.

Sound's good, dude. :)

[jenna26]

Originally Posted by Doc Faustus

If you consider the rate of abuse, divorce and teen pregnancy, misogyny is pretty rampant. He is talking about the average man here, and the average man hasn't made much headway into male/female relations. How many guys spend more nonsexual time with their girlfriends and wives then they do working or hanging out with their friends? Not that many. How many men care about sharing interests and viewpoints with a woman before opting to date them? How many guys do you know who date women who they would not be friends with? I think the answer is, in fact, most. Liberalism and conservatism aside, the fact is, that the majority of men do not LIKE women as people. Beyond that, there is a group within that demographic that actively dislikes women as people, and within that demographic, one that hates.

This makes all of the sense in the world to me.
I read this thread yesterday, but haven't had a chance to respond so here goes.....
I do think in some ways saying that most men hate women is pretty strong, but there is.....truth in it. And let me explain to some of the women or men that might disagree where I am coming from here. Early on, I had VERY rocky relationships, mostly that was on me, because honestly I distrusted and in general, feared men (outside of my family). I had good reasons, and I swear it seemed sometimes I was almost seeking out men to prove me RIGHT. I dated some real jackasses, but moving on......I spent a lot of time alone. Before I met my husband, I didn't even date for years. I didn't want to attract men, I've never been a very pretty girl, but I like that. I like to not bring attention to myself purely based on my looks. Now that everyone kind of understands how fucked up I was about such things....;) I will say that during that very loooong period of time that I wasn't dating, I actually started to enjoy the company of men. As friends. Some of my best friends have been men. And I have found in my admittedly limited, but convincing experience, that generally men have made much better friends than lovers or partners (except for my husband). The men that were so damn good to me as a friend, the ones that loved to spend time with me, honestly enjoyed my company, asked my advice....etc. would "fall in love" with a woman and start to treat that woman so appallingly bad that I was shocked, and it didn't help my previous hesitation to be in a romantic relationship. They would think of reasons to avoid going home, lie, sometimes cheat, complain about what a bitch she was...sometimes worse....needless to say, most of my friendships died a slow death after they found someone.....:rolleyes:

The reason I think this is, is that a lot of people "settle". I think a lot men and women just haven't figured out how to be friends, as well as lovers. I don't think many believe it even possible. These men would get with women that they found sexually exciting, or made their life easier, or a combination of both and then seemed to want to build a whole life based on that. They love the sex, they love the way they look.....after that, they have NOTHING in common. I think women can be like this too, they are drawn to the guy that turns them on, and don't really seem to get past that. I think that is why so many marriages fail. They forget to actually get to know the other person, and once they do, they realize they don't really like them very much. People seem so focused on the passion of conflict, that they don't seem to realize that you can have passion AND friendship in their relationship. And some men, and hell, some woman, just don't seem to want that anyway.

My husband has noticed the same thing at work, the guys there are always complaining about their wives. There are clubs specially designed so men don't have to go home to their wives or girlfriends. They are completely baffled about why my husband actually ENJOYS being home. We enjoy each other's company. We're friends. We excite each other, but we also agree on a whole lot. We don't fight about petty shit. And hey, he hardly ever "goes out with the boys". He doesn't seem to care for "the boys" very much. :p

But do I think this guys hate their wives/girlfriends? No. Do I think they dislike them? Yes, on some level they obviously do. If not, why do they avoid going home? How can they casually throw the word bitch around? Why do they cheat, and expect the woman to just "get over it", but act madly jealous and suspicious of them? I have seen this happen a whole lot and it has happened to me too much in the past, not to see the truth in Urge's post. I think the women and men that can't see it, maybe they just have had extraordinarily good luck with the opposite sex. But to make it clear, if I haven't already, I think both men AND women are guilty of this prejudice against the opposite sex.

[Papillon Noir]

Originally Posted by urgeok2

1) did you read the post ?

2) how old are you ?

i made a statemement based on 47 years of observation..
do you think i'm championing this ?

it isnt something i like - its something that bothers me ...


i'm assuming you are in your teens or early 20's - in which case you'd be thinking the same thing i was when i was your age - a lot of the things i've observed weren't noticeable to me until not long ago.

if i live in a bubble - it's a pretty big one ...


it's nice that you have a positive outlook ... I am personally doing my best - raising my child to be atypical of this bullshit but i have to say that if you arent able to see what i'm talking about - you're the one in a bubble - albiet a bubble of youth and the limited experience as a result. thats not an insult - its just a reality.


where is the hate coming from ? did you read the post ? i think i explained what i thought were some valid possibilities.

also - as i said above - men dont show this side to women (well except for abused women - but we know that hardly ever happens in this day and age - right ?) because it doesnt serve their purposes now does it.


but many men speak more freely around other men and trust me - the respect isnt there for most of them. far from it.

before i made the post - it's been something i've been discussing with my friends - and believe me - they get it - as do several of the (i'm assuming older) people who responded to the thread before you did.

Yes. I read the post.

I'm actually 27. I don't know if that still qualifies me for the "young naive bubble" or not. I remember this subject coming up in my sociology class when I was in college back in the early part of this decade.

I know there is a group out there (college fraternity/sororitity types are a good example) that only has very gender specific interests and roles. These types typically stay with their own gender because they believe that only these people have any interest to them and therefore possibly the only ones deserving respect. Apparently, these types of people are the ones that you work with and for that I am sorry.

As for the whole wife-beater scenario, I think that is more a dominance thing than a male/female thing, and that these men beat women because they are perceived as weak. I think they would also beat a man if they were being perceived as such. Rape again falls under that whole power trip thing.

Now there is a another group beyond this gender specific group that blurs the lines on gender roles where both men and women have interests in both stereotypical male/female roles. This is the group that usually doesn't only associate with their gender, but with the opposite sex as well. I do not believe that this group is in the minority.

Maybe this is a generational thing as my peers were all born after the women's liberation movement. My personal interests also expand both stereotypical gender roles, so maybe I'm projecting my personal experience on not living within a gender specific role. Regardless, I do believe that gender roles are changing and the traditional stereotypes are no longer the norm.

[Doc Faustus]

Originally Posted by Papillon Noir

Yes. I read the post.

I'm actually 27. I don't know if that still qualifies me for the "young naive bubble" or not. I remember this subject coming up in my sociology class when I was in college back in the early part of this decade.

I know there is a group out there (college fraternity/sororitity types are a good example) that only has very gender specific interests and roles. These types typically stay with their own gender because they believe that only these people have any interest to them and therefore possibly the only ones deserving respect. Apparently, these types of people are the ones that you work with and for that I am sorry.

As for the whole wife-beater scenario, I think that is more a dominance thing than a male/female thing, and that these men beat women because they are perceived as weak. I think they would also beat a man if they were being perceived as such. Rape again falls under that whole power trip thing.

Now there is a another group beyond this gender specific group that blurs the lines on gender roles where both men and women have interests in both stereotypical male/female roles. This is the group that usually doesn't only associate with their gender, but with the opposite sex as well. I do not believe that this group is in the minority.

Maybe this is a generational thing as my peers were all born after the women's liberation movement. My personal interests also expand both stereotypical gender roles, so maybe I'm projecting my personal experience on not living within a gender specific role. Regardless, I do believe that gender roles are changing and the traditional stereotypes are no longer the norm.

Male/female friendship and socializing is becoming the norm, but there are still plenty of people who choose sexual partners and lovers without looking at them as friends. Can you honestly tell me you don't know any men who hang out with other women in a friendly capacity while not spending time socially with the girls they're dating? There are still a lot of divisions there and a lot of people who think it is taboo for friendships to cross into romantic territory, instead of realizing this should be the default. As for rape, yes it is obviously a dominance, but ask yourself: why does an individual feel they have a right to dominate somebody? Women's liberation did happen, but to a certain extent, it's a cultural myth. History isn't that concrete. If Martin Luther King defeated racism as we are taught in elementary school, how come there are still hate groups? I caution you against a complacent sense of triumph over such social ills, Betty Friedan or otherwise. The American male at large still demeans women, still gets girlfriends pregnant and runs out on them, still doesn't respect women as people and still often has a "bros before hos" attitude that is demeaning to relationships. I went to a liberal arts college that I have a feeling is more hippie progressive than most (400 students on a hill living in old farmhouses and eating in a barn) , yet jello shots were still a date rape drug, guys still couldn't wait to ditch their girlfriends to play videogames with their pals and many guys still didn't hold that much of a progressive stance. In this liberal college town, girls were still plowed down with liquor and date raped by townies who ran New Age stores and sold used Noam Chomsky books. It's important to know that the permissive, respectful male is part of a very small group. I'm no misogynist. My mother was an unmarried marine. Taught me to kill a man with my barehands and I knew damn well she could do it to anybody she needed to if it came down to it. I've been dating and living with the same girl for almost five years now and I was a friend to her without laying a hand on her for two years, walking through a blizzard to buy her cigarettes I myself am allergic to. I have no anti-female bias and that's how I can see more clearly when others do and it's still everywhere.

[Papillon Noir]

Originally Posted by Doc Faustus

Male/female friendship and socializing is becoming the norm, but there are still plenty of people who choose sexual partners and lovers without looking at them as friends. Can you honestly tell me you don't know any men who hang out with other women in a friendly capacity while not spending time socially with the girls they're dating? There are still a lot of divisions there and a lot of people who think it is taboo for friendships to cross into romantic territory, instead of realizing this should be the default. As for rape, yes it is obviously a dominance, but ask yourself: why does an individual feel they have a right to dominate somebody? Women's liberation did happen, but to a certain extent, it's a cultural myth. History isn't that concrete. If Martin Luther King defeated racism as we are taught in elementary school, how come there are still hate groups? I caution you against a complacent sense of triumph over such social ills, Betty Friedan or otherwise. The American male at large still demeans women, still gets girlfriends pregnant and runs out on them, still doesn't respect women as people and still often has a "bros before hos" attitude that is demeaning to relationships. I went to a liberal arts college that I have a feeling is more hippie progressive than most (400 students on a hill living in old farmhouses and eating in a barn) , yet jello shots were still a date rape drug, guys still couldn't wait to ditch their girlfriends to play videogames with their pals and many guys still didn't hold that much of a progressive stance. In this liberal college town, girls were still plowed down with liquor and date raped by townies who ran New Age stores and sold used Noam Chomsky books. It's important to know that the permissive, respectful male is part of a very small group. I'm no misogynist. My mother was an unmarried marine. Taught me to kill a man with my barehands and I knew damn well she could do it to anybody she needed to if it came down to it. I've been dating and living with the same girl for almost five years now and I was a friend to her without laying a hand on her for two years, walking through a blizzard to buy her cigarettes I myself am allergic to. I have no anti-female bias and that's how I can see more clearly when others do and it's still everywhere.

In a nutshell, what I think is this:

Yes, there are definitely still gender stereotypes going on, and the whole men vs. women thing. I don't think it's the majority though, and I definitely wouldn't use the label, "most" when talking how men hate women.

[urgeok2]

i want to say that maybe i used the word 'hate' to hastily ... but man, i think of the example of wifebeating and rape, and abandonment, and casual bullshit i've had to listen to for years - and i dunno.

strong dislike ? definately a complete lack of respect (in my world thats as close to hate as you can get)


i understand where you're coming from re. wifebeating as a strong VS weak thing .. but i still believe it;s a male/female thing.

i definately believe the majority of men that abuse women do it because yes - the woman is physically weaker - but there's also contempt as a result of the husband/wife rolls. i dont believe most of these guys would physically strike a weaker man ... there isnt the same inherent problem there.
I've never heard a guy say 'the bitch just doesn't listen' about a buddy. the dynamic is very much different.

of course there are those complete psychos that cannot control their anger in any circumstances and attack anything any anyone - but i'm not talking about them - there really arent that many - outside of jail.


i know we feel advanced and superior here in north america - we've made some strides .. but we're far from 100% equality.

men still get paid more for the same job in many many instances.
there is still the glass ceiling ... i've seen some progress with women directors - they're usually in HR.

i know anyone can cite major exceptions to this - but holy crap - there's still no comparrison.

i say great - if you've managed to surround yourself with men who aren't like this ... (although sometimes you never know)

i personally wouldnt spend time - voluntarily - around people like this either.
my friends arent - nor are they racist .. but sadly i see evidence of it everywhere. it started to come together like pieces in a huge puzzle a few months ago ... and now it's so completely clear to me.



so maybe - against my better judgement - i should change the wording to ...

Most Men Don't Respect or Care for Women That Much .... but jesus it just doesnt seem strong enough to me.

when there isnt a reported rape every 1.3 minutes in the USA

(one source : 683,000 adult American women are forcibly raped each year. This equals 56,916 per month; 1,871 per day; 78 per hour; and 1.3 per minute)

then i'll revamp my stance on this ...

[urgeok2]

Originally Posted by Papillon Noir

... and I definitely wouldn't use the label, "most" when talking how men hate women.

i absolutely would. (if we change hate to something a tiny bit less strong - see above post)

[La Chat Noire]

After reading this thread I feel so blessed to have good men in my life, when apparently they are few and far between. My boyfriend is my best friend. I've never been ditched for "the guys." We love having a home together and each being with each other immensely. But then again, we were friends first. Too many people get involved romantically without first waiting to see if they can make it as friends first. And honestly, if you can't cut it as friends, you'll never last. On the friends note, I have quite a few guy friends who are all wonderful, women-respecting men. So this is my cheers to all the good men, who enjoy the company of their women and respect their women. Thanks for not joining the majority.