Religion

[cheebacheeba]

I'm surprised this got bought up again...I said it as a light hearted thing...but anyways offense may have been caused here, or not? I don't know.
Anyways...

I do not agree that people should not be allowed to practice their religion in public.

See, this to me (and I don't say this specifically to offend, I'm just trying to explain my point of view) is kind of stepping a little bit closer to being fanatical about your religion...because there's places of worship, and then there's not.
Choosing to make the entire open world a place of worship exposes other people to your religious practices without their choice or consent - and I don't think it's respectful of other people who simply choose to either
a: Not follow religion
b: Have religion, but not feel the need to have others observe them.
Of course, if you're part of a larger culture who does this as the "normal" thing, the statements above may not apply - some cultures where people are quite devout, will have this done as part of majority...in which case, I don't think you'd find any/many people to dispute you, as it's more of an appropriate forum where expressing your religious moxy is more widely acceptable.
Though I believe the original statement/play on words that started this thread is mainly applicable to "modern" multicultural societies.
Here, and I'm certain among many multicultural societies, the "normal" thing to do if one is religious is either stick to places of worship or the home.
Nobody is denying you your religion...I mean people may question your productivity if you're spending all day having your God time etc...but, but I honestly think that when you're living among a culture that this is not considered "normal" it's actually a bit disrespectful to conduct yourself in that manner. Not to mention a little strange.
As I said, there's places of worship, there's home, then there's everywhere else. Honestly, I'll say it however offensive it sounds...seeing people pray, kneel down, sing, or any such other display of worship in public...to me is like a guy walking around with a tennis racquet in full gear, swinging it around like he's still in the game, or a person walking along at a fast pace with their hands out in front of them like they're holding a steering wheel. That and, a little bit of "Yeah this is MY thing, just TRY to say anything about it so I can act all offended".

That said, don't even get me started on people who actually seek out others to join their religion in any way shape or form.
For that matter, I also find schools that devote any time whatsoever to religion to be absolutely wrong, no matter who, no matter what.
A person should have freedom to seek out information on their own on any given religion...it should not be thrust upon them like a campaigner looking for votes, and I do not think children should be bought up "in a religion", ever.
That's just my personal values there though, I believe in choice, exploration, and education.

just don't expect others to follow suit or start having conversations about how your religion rocks and everyone else is doomed.

Totally with you there.

Religion is the #1 problem with the human race. There is no sky god going to help us with our problems, It seems the belief in god only causes more problems. And the sooner we can reply on ourselves and science to solve problems, the sooner we can evolve and progress as a whole.
Stem Cell research being delayed, 9/11, Countless wars, All because someone thought it was gods will. People interrupt religion anyway they want. Believe in the pie in the sky because in the end, we're all gonna die.

Yes.
That and the whole abortion issue, people being forced into marriages for family status, eating/not eating certain foods, relationship exclusion of other cultures, and in other more extreme cases "bought up" to think that totally archaic and backward practices are normal to the point they don't even realise they're not afforded basic human rights.


There are reasons that I don't really choose to follow a religion, rather a value system...it's pretty generic and "fits all", not to mention most religions always have the old "Don't fuck about with other religions or else"...how do I know I've got the right one eh?
"They are wrong, we are right", so many religions preach acceptance and forgiveness yet only the most religious folks tend to sling so much shit at others. This mentality should never apply when it comes to religion or lifestyle. It's totally subjective, and unless there's a realisation that none are more valid than the other...
Let people find spirituality to what ends suit them - I just do not think that religion is something that needs to be displayed in public...and if you need to do it, respect others enough to do so discreetly.

[TheWickerFan]

I'm with Cheeba and Deposable on the issue of religion actually being harmful. So many horrors commited and so much progress hindered in the name of religion is enough to make me hate it.

I also can't help but laugh at the religious people who scoff at another religion as being "crazy" (ie: Christians vs. Scientologists). When you start breaking down the belief systems of all the different religions out there, I would be hard pressed to say which one sounded crazier.

[Straker]

I thought the original post was pretty funny, but seriously, there are some really naive opinions flying around this thread...

You folks dont want people practising their religion in public, but then can't we all come up with a bunch of shit we hate to see people doing or advertising in public? Why target religion? I'm sick to death of listening to people flick through their ipod on a train and having to listen to their shite music, or the dick head who comes out of a pub singing his favourite football chant or that silly cow out the back of the bus who wants everyone to hear her stupid fucking conversation. There are millions of people across the world who act out and do shit in public that bugs people or make a point of advertising their way of life. Who gives a fuck if a bunch of nuns wanna sing Kumbaya in public or someone wants to say a prayer before they eat their big mac?

As for 'religion' not being taught in schools and such, I think you really need to define that opinion alot better. Religious texts are some of the best wisdom literature avaliable, it would be retarded to remove religion from education. I'll asume you are just saying you don't like the idea of teaching creationism as a science or the indoctrination of our youth through religion.

As for religion being harmful, come the fuck on, we aren't all 14 year old angry children here are we? 'Religion causes war, blah-blah'. For every one man killed in the name of religion you will find one man who will claim his life has been saved by his religion. That's ignoring the millions raised through religion for worthy causes across the globe. People kill people, sometimes in the name of religion... Are you honestly gonna let yourself believe that if you get rid of religion the world will be a safer place and we are all gonna join hands and sing 'We are the world'?

[Sistinas666]

Originally Posted by cheebacheeba

I'm surprised this got bought up again...I said it as a light hearted thing...but anyways offense may have been caused here, or not? I don't know.
Anyways....

Its my fault this came back up. I was looking through threads and mistook this for a new thread. It took me a full day before I even realized I had replied to a 6 month old Wufong post.:o

[TheWickerFan]

While I don't think there will be absolute world peace if you eliminated religion, I suspect that a lot of the ugliness between many countries would disappear. India and Pakistan, Israel and Palestine, Ireland and England; maybe they would manage to find other things to fight about, but then again, maybe not.

[cheebacheeba]

Why target religion? I'm sick to death of listening to people flick through their ipod on a train and having to listen to their shite music, or the dick head who comes out of a pub singing his favourite football chant or that silly cow out the back of the bus who wants everyone to hear her stupid fucking conversation. There are millions of people across the world who act out and do shit in public that bugs people or make a point of advertising their way of life.

Yeah, I don't personally appreciate those folks either. I don't target religion specifically...it was just the topic that happened to be under discussion.
We've done a "what pisses me off" thread in here somewhere already, if you can find it you'll see religion is not something I particularly focus upon.
There's lists. It's been done.
I think people who react like you have take shit too personally...I mentioned before about certain people who wait to jump at things like this, and here you are questioning my maturity when I am just giving my perspective when someone evidently took offense.
I don't sugar coat things, and I don't speak bullshit.
Hell, all I said is that I don't see a need for religion to become public spectacle...personally, I think it detracts a little bit from any actual faith when you go all out with the whole "look at my faith, world!" bit.
If someone acting in a way that's not culturally "the done thing" I find it strange, a little uncomfortable, and probably most problematically is that it's really just slinging around free advertising for your organised religion of choice isn't it? - I've already said where I stand on people campaigning, and I'm sorry if it counts for me even if it's unwittingly so, and inbuilt through conditioning, another thing I personally don't agree with.
I haven't attacked YOUR religion, or any specific religion. I have nothing *really*against any given faith, just how certain groups and people conduct themselves - and while I find some things about them illogical, people are free to believe in whatever they like and act accordingly.

Religious texts are some of the best wisdom literature avaliable, it would be retarded to remove religion from education.

So if it's not your way, it's retarded...right...
All I can say there without pointing out the fundamental "lets not judge" people bit, is, each to their own.
Chances are, had you been raised in a different way, you may have a different opinion.
Values and ethics can be taught and embraced without having to refer to religious texts. That's all religion is really about, right? I mean if you take all the random crap that's open to interpretation out...being a "good" person...?
Other than that, what is there? Fables/parables presented in different ways.
Again, why this isn't something you feel can be left out of "education", is your own view on the matter.

I'll asume you are just saying you don't like the idea of teaching creationism as a science or the indoctrination of our youth through religion

Yes I prefer fact over fiction, and open philosophical discussion over religion. Less dogmatic. Less "wrong" answers.

I suspect that a lot of the ugliness between many countries would disappear.

Agreed again

maybe they would manage to find other things to fight about, but then again, maybe not.

Probably. But they wouldn't always have the same old fallback of religion - they'd actually have to stop and THINK about why they ought to be angry at each other.

[Deposable]

France banned the burqa ! I think it's great. That's a public ban of religion. Censor religion the way it's censored personal choice. No self respecting woman that hasn't been brain washed would put a burqa on their head.

Religion makes people feel ashamed of who they are. COVER YOURSELF UP ! Be Ashamed if you're black, a woman, gay, different. I'm against all forms of censorship & hate . Practice and preach "Peace & love" . That's the only way forward for us

[Straker]

Originally Posted by cheebacheeba

I think people who react like you have take shit too personally...

Nothing personal, I just think you are talking about a social problem rather than a religious one. Anyone who imposes their belief structure on someone else is wrong, but you get force fed cock everyday, why are you stopping to check the colour?

Your views really arent all that out there, infact as this thread has proven they're pretty much mainstream. I just think its a little tragic that you don't want a religious person to pray before he eats his meal because it might make you feel 'a little uncomfortable'. Personally I think you need to get the fuck over it.

So if it's not your way, it's retarded...right...

If the way involves removing religion from schools then, yes, its totally retarded. You can't deliver a solid educational programme without acknowledging the impact of religion. You can't talk about sociology or History without discussing religion and you can't discuss literature without talking about religious texts. If you were raised in a state school, in the wester world, chances are most of those fables and parables you want to get rid of underpin most of your core values anyway.... You must see there's a huge difference between forced indoctrination or the studying and understanding of a subject.

As for the whole religion kills argument, I don't see why you arent grasping that its a circular argument. Religion kills and saves lives. I have no idea how many lives religion has saved or how many lives religion has taken, neither does anyone else, because its an abstract argument filled with way too many variables.

As for the burqa ban, if you approve of the ban, you are certainly not against all forms of censorship are you?... you just approved a ban. Wouldn't it make more sense for people to wear whatever they want and stop retarded husbands beating on their wives and forcing them to wear shit they don't want to? I don't see how a blanket ban on burqa's actually stops oppression.

[TheWickerFan]

In the U.S., religious teachings have been removed from the schools, years ago. Because not all the children are Christians! Don't you think people of other faiths or non-believers should be spared these teachings which, to them, would seem like a fairy tale or worse, a spit in the face to what they believe in?

Wait a minute! You're the same guy who believed people should be put in jail for missing parent teacher conferences!:eek:

http://www.horror.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56513

[cheebacheeba]

You must see there's a huge difference between forced indoctrination or the studying and understanding of a subject.

That's one thing we can solidly agree on, as "religious studies" say at university/college would be a solid grounding on such knowledge, as opposed to the thinly veiled enrollment in a parents religion of choice that attending a religion-related school does.
"This is how OUR bible works" does not provide a well rounded perspective or understanding at all.

I just think its a little tragic that you don't want a religious person to pray before he eats his meal because it might make you feel 'a little uncomfortable'. Personally I think you need to get the fuck over it.

Tragic it may be...moreso that people are simply not as spiritual as they can or ought to be any more, but it is what it is.
Just saying that I don't need to see it done, in front of me?
Being in the minority as you've acknowledged the counter as the "mainstream", wouldn't you then be taking away a lot more peoples choice not to live immersed in devout religion, than they would be yours?
What I meant by that it was a "little uncomfortable" is, like seeing a person with a strange mark on their face...I don't want to have to feel rude by looking at them wondering whats up with that...and if I do, then what...I'm the prick? or I get the "why are you staring at me, if they catch me looking at them for just a moment?
It's almost like those folks who have a lot of tats then get all aggravated when you pause to take a look at them. See? it causes issues. You might not react that way and I'm not saying you do, but, you cannot tell me this hasn't, or wouldn't happen.
This is (however you choose to perceive it by your own) in my perspective, exposing others to your religion...when you needn't...the whole prayer bit anyways, again it's about spectacle. What, like your God can't hear you without throwing up whatever religious gang sign/pose you do to talk to them? :rolleyes:
By the way, quit looking at me while I'm riding my imaginary bike.

That said, I've nothing against religious garb...unless it's been imposed on people from such a young age that they don't think of their lack of choice in the matter as even a relevant factor.
You may think it's just the same thing as a person praying, but I don't think so, anyone could wear clothes in any way they like.