More Urgeok Musings : Most Men Hate Women

[ChronoGrl]

Originally Posted by urgeok2

well, actually in China it's like this .. in an effort to control an out of hand population crisis in many areas you are onlu allowed to have one child.

if you have a boy - he eventually grows up, gets married - supports his parents - especially when they are older.

they dont have the social assistance like we do for older people. It's the kids that take care of the folks.

if your only child is a girl, then you've pretty much guarenteed a horrible retirement for yourself.


i do believe that like in most places - women are treated as second class citizens - but in the situation of baby girls and adoption ... it's an unfortunate survival issue.

i have this knowledge first hand...

That was a great way to put the One Child Policy into perspective (seriously - not being sarcastic here).

In reality, the Western world (America in particular as we have decided to side with TAIWAN and not mainland China), demonizes China and the One Child Policy. While I don't necessarily agree with the legislation, the fact of the matter is, the country is so ridiculously large that China cannot actually enforce this policy. As soon as one wanders from the major cities an into the outskirts rural life (which is the larger population of China, by the way), you see large family with more than one child. The fact of the matter is, China does not have the funds to enforce the One Child Policy nationally; it's more of a way to extract funds from the rich couples/family of the big cities (bribing runs absolutely rampant in China). Not that I support the One Child Policy, mind you, but the legislation itself has been slanted and spun by the American media to feed into our own issues with Chinese misogyny and Civil Rights issues.

The issues that China has in terms of its female population are far more ingrained than its recently-enforced One Child Policy; as I have mentioned before in this Thread, it's not that Asia specifically targets women; it's that Asia has defines Women as being the weaker sex and as being subservient to men, not equal. It's a more complicated subject when you actually look into its origin permeation in society. It's not that China hates women; it's that for hundreds of years, women have been sub-human in comparison to their male counterparts. Considering how incredibly old this society and culture is in compared to America, it's not that easy to say, Hey, what you've been doing for HUNDREDS OF YEARS is WRONG. Think about it in that context; it'll just take them more time to change.

[Leprucky Cougar]

Originally Posted by ChronoGrl

That was a great way to put the One Child Policy into perspective (seriously - not being sarcastic here).

In reality, the Western world (America in particular as we have decided to side with TAIWAN and not mainland China), demonizes China and the One Child Policy. While I don't necessarily agree with the legislation, the fact of the matter is, the country is so ridiculously large that China cannot actually enforce this policy. As soon as one wanders from the major cities an into the outskirts rural life (which is the larger population of China, by the way), you see large family with more than one child. The fact of the matter is, China does not have the funds to enforce the One Child Policy nationally; it's more of a way to extract funds from the rich couples/family of the big cities (bribing runs absolutely rampant in China). Not that I support the One Child Policy, mind you, but the legislation itself has been slanted and spun by the American media to feed into our own issues with Chinese misogyny and Civil Rights issues.

The issues that China has in terms of its female population are far more ingrained than its recently-enforced One Child Policy; as I have mentioned before in this Thread, it's not that Asia specifically targets women; it's that Asia has defines Women as being the weaker sex and as being subservient to men, not equal. It's a more complicated subject when you actually look into its origin permeation in society. It's not that China hates women; it's that for hundreds of years, women have been sub-human in comparison to their male counterparts. Considering how incredibly old this society and culture is in compared to America, it's not that easy to say, Hey, what you've been doing for HUNDREDS OF YEARS is WRONG. Think about it in that context; it'll just take them more time to change.

How much more time? And even if they interpret is as viewing as the weaker sex isn't that a subcategory of dislike or hate. In other words in order for us to have a favorite of something we like something a bit more; so if we don't love it as much we on the other hand dislike/hate it a little; so technically wouldn't the Chinese culture (maybe not in actuality) but in theory hate women?--because this seems to be the corelation.

[urgeok2]

Originally Posted by Leprucky Cougar

and in terms of the very last part of what you said how so? :confused:

my 1st wife and i were deep in the process of adopting a baby girl from china .. just a couple of weeks away when the marriage completely fell apart.

she was thinking a baby would help - which is completely insane.
a child can put extra stress on a relationship ..a child in a relationship thats already gone to hell ?

i realized i couldnt do that to a kid ... especially one thats had a tough start already. it would have been the same thing i went through as a kid.


still really sad about it though ... always wanted a girl..

[ChronoGrl]

Originally Posted by Leprucky Cougar

How much more time? And even if they interpret is as viewing as the weaker sex isn't that a subcategory of dislike or hate. In other words in order for us to have a favorite of something we like something a bit more; so if we don't love it as much we on the other hand dislike/hate it a little; so technically wouldn't the Chinese culture (maybe not in actuality) but in theory hate women?--because this seems to be the corelation.

"How much more time?" - Are you serious? You're talking about reversing hundreds of years of ingrained and perpetuated assumptions surrounding gender roles... Do you honestly think change would be easy?? Look - I'm a bleeding heart liberal, but I'm a REALIST. You can't even GOOGLE "Tienanmen Square" when inside China and expect results (How do I know that? I spent a year there with no online access to the BBC because of purposeful internet censoring) - the individual's life is so incredibly controlled by the government that it's horrifying. Do you think that the One Child Policy is honestly the biggest issue there?

You're over-simplifying.

Boys = Strong. Can do the farm work. Will physically support the family.
Girls = Baby-makers.

It's not about hating women. If men have typically been the bread-winners OR those who help and physically assist with chores on the family farm, then of COURSE they are favored. In this case, it's a matter of wanting a member of your family who will be able to inherent and run the family farm/business. Traditionally, men take these roles. Therefore, these families favor male babies. So it's not about "hate." "Hate" is far too simple a word to encompass a patriarchal system of ingrained misogyny.

But that doesn't even MATTER because, to tell you the truth, the One Child Policy isn't even enforced in most of the country. The main purpose of the legislation is to legally collect bribes from rich couples who want a big family (if you want more than one child; just pay off the government officials).

The problem with China doesn't come down specifically to the One Child Policy - the country is completely controlled and manipulated by the government (it's so incredibly surreal how close the society is to 1984 there). Women DO deserve these rights, yes, but it will not be easy and to assume that it is is incredibly short-sighted. It is SO easy for our Western culture to rail against what we believe to be the inferior foibles of the Eastern World, but we HAVE to think about it in context. Women honestly believe that their place is in the kitchen; it's the same place where our women were in the 40s and 50s - on the VERGE of revolution, but still scared and embracing the roles that have been set out for them.

It's happening. It truly is. We just have to recognize that this is a significantly older society than ours and that their ethics and mores have been ingrained for a much longer time. Just saying, "CHINA NEEDS TO CHANGE" is all well and good, but you have to understand why they are where they are before railing against their way of life. It seems slightly imperialistic and condescending. Take it into perspective. Show outrage, sure, but realistic about it.

[ChronoGrl]

Originally Posted by urgeok2

my 1st wife and i were deep in the process of adopting a baby girl from china .. just a couple of weeks away when the marriage completely fell apart.

she was thinking a baby would help - which is completely insane.
a child can put extra stress on a relationship ..a child in a relationship thats already gone to hell ?

i realized i couldnt do that to a kid ... especially one thats had a tough start already. it would have been the same thing i went through as a kid.


still really sad about it though ... always wanted a girl..

Oh, Honey...

Have you and your current wife considered a similar adoption?

If my boyfriend and I get to a point where we're ready for children, we will either be foster parents and be a support for the American foster care system... OR we'll go through the process to adopt a baby girl from China. We'll see what happens over the next couple of years.

[Leprucky Cougar]

Originally Posted by urgeok2

my 1st wife and i were deep in the process of adopting a baby girl from china .. just a couple of weeks away when the marriage completely fell apart.

she was thinking a baby would help - which is completely insane.
a child can put extra stress on a relationship ..a child in a relationship thats already gone to hell ?

i realized i couldnt do that to a kid ... especially one thats had a tough start already. it would have been the same thing i went through as a kid.


still really sad about it though ... always wanted a girl..

Hope things are better with your current wife. :)

[Leprucky Cougar]

Originally Posted by ChronoGrl

Oh, Honey...

Have you and your current wife considered a similar adoption?

If my boyfriend and I get to a point where we're ready for children, we will either be foster parents and be a support for the American foster care system... OR we'll go through the process to adopt a baby girl from China. We'll see what happens over the next couple of years.

I agree Chrno....I think people who want kids should always consider adoption first--before creating a "little one" think about the millions of "little ones" already here and want a "grown-up" to be their mommies and daddies.

[urgeok2]

oh everythings cool now ..

several months after my divorce friends of mine introduced me to my current wife 10 years ago .. we've got a son ... (just turned 8)

he also just got his orange belt in tae kwon do - pretty proud of him for that - he's doing really well.

[Leprucky Cougar]

Originally Posted by ChronoGrl

"How much more time?" - Are you serious? You're talking about reversing hundreds of years of ingrained and perpetuated assumptions surrounding gender roles... Do you honestly think change would be easy?? Look - I'm a bleeding heart liberal, but I'm a REALIST. You can't even GOOGLE "Tienanmen Square" when inside China and expect results (How do I know that? I spent a year there with no online access to the BBC because of purposeful internet censoring) - the individual's life is so incredibly controlled by the government that it's horrifying. Do you think that the One Child Policy is honestly the biggest issue there?

You're over-simplifying.

Boys = Strong. Can do the farm work. Will physically support the family.
Girls = Baby-makers.

It's not about hating women. If men have typically been the bread-winners OR those who help and physically assist with chores on the family farm, then of COURSE they are favored. In this case, it's a matter of wanting a member of your family who will be able to inherent and run the family farm/business. Traditionally, men take these roles. Therefore, these families favor male babies. So it's not about "hate." "Hate" is far too simple a word to encompass a patriarchal system of ingrained misogyny.

But that doesn't even MATTER because, to tell you the truth, the One Child Policy isn't even enforced in most of the country. The main purpose of the legislation is to legally collect bribes from rich couples who want a big family (if you want more than one child; just pay off the government officials).

The problem with China doesn't come down specifically to the One Child Policy - the country is completely controlled and manipulated by the government (it's so incredibly surreal how close the society is to 1984 there). Women DO deserve these rights, yes, but it will not be easy and to assume that it is is incredibly short-sighted. It is SO easy for our Western culture to rail against what we believe to be the inferior foibles of the Eastern World, but we HAVE to think about it in context. Women honestly believe that their place is in the kitchen; it's the same place where our women were in the 40s and 50s - on the VERGE of revolution, but still scared and embracing the roles that have been set out for them.

It's happening. It truly is. We just have to recognize that this is a significantly older society than ours and that their ethics and mores have been ingrained for a much longer time. Just saying, "CHINA NEEDS TO CHANGE" is all well and good, but you have to understand why they are where they are before railing against their way of life. It seems slightly imperialistic and condescending. Take it into perspective. Show outrage, sure, but realistic about it.

I totally get what you're saying. And it's not that I'm rushing for China's big "break" from the former upbringing. Like you said, I was displaying my "outrage." It was meant to be rhetorical question anway. But I get you. I just wanted to emphasize that it wasn't impossible.

[ChronoGrl]

Originally Posted by Leprucky Cougar

I agree Chrno....I think people who want kids should always consider adoption first--before creating a "little one" think about the millions of "little ones" already here and want a "grown-up" to be their mommies and daddies.

Seriously - It honestly breaks my heart to think of the hundreds/thousands of children in this country alone who need a strong parental figure. :(

The concept of bearing my own child is amazing; I think it's INCREDIBLE that I (we, WOMEN) can actually create life - that is so incredibly... amazing.

HOWEVER... I feel that if you have the means, the will, the space, the ability, that you should give a child in need a home, you know?

Not that I think it would be easy; my grandparents took, in a foster boy once and it was really difficult for them. The System is so incredibly twisted that these poor children wind up pretty shaken and disturbed.

I have HUGE amount of respect for anyone (or any couple) who want to adopt or foster a family; it takes a LOT of work and a whole lot of Heart. I think that more people should consider these means.