god damn, urge! what is wrong with you? I mean seriously: seriously, think about it, I ask you the question: what the fuck is wrong with you?? writing a thread like this. please be serious. i don't know what yuouare talking about. give it a break man just give it a break okay jeez :confused: :eek: :rolleyes: ;)

"I may be bad... but I feel good"

....Ash's Dark Princess (Army of Darkness)

I have to say that this thread is utter CRAP! Most men hate women?! Do you live in a bubble, Urge? It's utterly idiotic and superficial. How can you think that one gender not only dislikes the other gender (and I'm assuming you only mean heterosexuals here), but also only wants to be around them for sex? I can't believe that in this day and age that you don't think men and women do like to be around each other. Maybe I just grew up in a forward thinking town with open minded-people, but I don't really believe that's the case here.

And where is all this hate coming from? I can understand not liking someone based on their personality or views on life, but because of their gender? It's like not liking someone because they are a different race, sexual orientation, etc. I think it's wrong to group people like that and utterly not true in this day and age.

I can't speak for anyone else. I don't hate my woman and given the option of doing things with or without her I would choose with. We get along as friends as well as partners.

The people who start phrases with "All men are..." or "Every woman is" are small minded idiots.

Wait, what was the topic?

If you consider the rate of abuse, divorce and teen pregnancy, misogyny is pretty rampant. He is talking about the average man here, and the average man hasn't made much headway into male/female relations. How many guys spend more nonsexual time with their girlfriends and wives then they do working or hanging out with their friends? Not that many. How many men care about sharing interests and viewpoints with a woman before opting to date them? How many guys do you know who date women who they would not be friends with? I think the answer is, in fact, most. Liberalism and conservatism aside, the fact is, that the majority of men do not LIKE women as people. Beyond that, there is a group within that demographic that actively dislikes women as people, and within that demographic, one that hates.

1) did you read the post ?

2) how old are you ?

i made a statemement based on 47 years of observation..
do you think i'm championing this ?

it isnt something i like - its something that bothers me ...


i'm assuming you are in your teens or early 20's - in which case you'd be thinking the same thing i was when i was your age - a lot of the things i've observed weren't noticeable to me until not long ago.

if i live in a bubble - it's a pretty big one ...


it's nice that you have a positive outlook ... I am personally doing my best - raising my child to be atypical of this bullshit but i have to say that if you arent able to see what i'm talking about - you're the one in a bubble - albiet a bubble of youth and the limited experience as a result. thats not an insult - its just a reality.


where is the hate coming from ? did you read the post ? i think i explained what i thought were some valid possibilities.

also - as i said above - men dont show this side to women (well except for abused women - but we know that hardly ever happens in this day and age - right ?) because it doesnt serve their purposes now does it.


but many men speak more freely around other men and trust me - the respect isnt there for most of them. far from it.

before i made the post - it's been something i've been discussing with my friends - and believe me - they get it - as do several of the (i'm assuming older) people who responded to the thread before you did.

My wife is part of a group of women that exists so that their kids can play together, kind of a pre-school socialization group.

To pretty much every woman in the group, I am some sort of miraculous anomaly; a man who cook , cleans, helps take care of the kid(s), doesnt mind taking the kid(s) by myself, doesnt mind (and actively encourages) my wife to go out for drinks, movie, just to hang out, whatever. I even "filled in" for Bree a couple of times so that Lily could go to someone's birthday party. Thier husbands wouldnt think of it. Ever.

Bree thinks its ridiculous that it is such a big deal; I could just as easily sleep outside. :)

WoW........I'm awol for 1 day and miss a doozy of a thread.

I get where urge is coming from....run into these kind of people ALL the time. But like urge,,,I don't choose to associate with them....but they are there....in abundance.

My feeling on woman are much different. My wife is pretty much the glue that holds the family together...I would be lost without her.We've been married for over 25 years and I have NEVER cheated. Sure I go "out with the guys" once in a while....and she goes "out with the girls" but for the most part its the two of us....together......two peas in a pod....wait...I feel a song coming on



I see the crystal raindrops fall
And the beauty of it all
when the sun comes shining through
To make those rainbows in my mind
When I think of you some time
And I want to spend some time with you

CHORUS:Just the two of us
We can make it if we try
Just the two of us
Just the two of us
Building castles in the sky
Just the two of us
You and I
We look for love, no time for tears
Wasted waters's all that is
And it don't make no flowers grow
Good things might come to those who wait
Not to those who wait to late
We got to go for all we know

*Lights bic, holds it up*

I'm the same way. Without Bree, I would just be a dirty, smelly guy in a dirty house. Not that she does all of the cleaning, but I wouldnt if her shoe wasnt planted firmly in my lazy ass :)

Please Newb.. The "mushy thread" is further down the page.

Just telling it like it is bro.

You see these old couples around and think...."look at them....they barely even speak to each other". The truth is....after 25 years together..speech is not necessary......communication is all telepathic.




you will see........soon you will find a female Gary Sinese and fall madly in love...get married....and have little Gary Sinese's.

Sound's good, dude. :)

This makes all of the sense in the world to me.
I read this thread yesterday, but haven't had a chance to respond so here goes.....
I do think in some ways saying that most men hate women is pretty strong, but there is.....truth in it. And let me explain to some of the women or men that might disagree where I am coming from here. Early on, I had VERY rocky relationships, mostly that was on me, because honestly I distrusted and in general, feared men (outside of my family). I had good reasons, and I swear it seemed sometimes I was almost seeking out men to prove me RIGHT. I dated some real jackasses, but moving on......I spent a lot of time alone. Before I met my husband, I didn't even date for years. I didn't want to attract men, I've never been a very pretty girl, but I like that. I like to not bring attention to myself purely based on my looks. Now that everyone kind of understands how fucked up I was about such things....;) I will say that during that very loooong period of time that I wasn't dating, I actually started to enjoy the company of men. As friends. Some of my best friends have been men. And I have found in my admittedly limited, but convincing experience, that generally men have made much better friends than lovers or partners (except for my husband). The men that were so damn good to me as a friend, the ones that loved to spend time with me, honestly enjoyed my company, asked my advice....etc. would "fall in love" with a woman and start to treat that woman so appallingly bad that I was shocked, and it didn't help my previous hesitation to be in a romantic relationship. They would think of reasons to avoid going home, lie, sometimes cheat, complain about what a bitch she was...sometimes worse....needless to say, most of my friendships died a slow death after they found someone.....:rolleyes:

The reason I think this is, is that a lot of people "settle". I think a lot men and women just haven't figured out how to be friends, as well as lovers. I don't think many believe it even possible. These men would get with women that they found sexually exciting, or made their life easier, or a combination of both and then seemed to want to build a whole life based on that. They love the sex, they love the way they look.....after that, they have NOTHING in common. I think women can be like this too, they are drawn to the guy that turns them on, and don't really seem to get past that. I think that is why so many marriages fail. They forget to actually get to know the other person, and once they do, they realize they don't really like them very much. People seem so focused on the passion of conflict, that they don't seem to realize that you can have passion AND friendship in their relationship. And some men, and hell, some woman, just don't seem to want that anyway.

My husband has noticed the same thing at work, the guys there are always complaining about their wives. There are clubs specially designed so men don't have to go home to their wives or girlfriends. They are completely baffled about why my husband actually ENJOYS being home. We enjoy each other's company. We're friends. We excite each other, but we also agree on a whole lot. We don't fight about petty shit. And hey, he hardly ever "goes out with the boys". He doesn't seem to care for "the boys" very much. :p

But do I think this guys hate their wives/girlfriends? No. Do I think they dislike them? Yes, on some level they obviously do. If not, why do they avoid going home? How can they casually throw the word bitch around? Why do they cheat, and expect the woman to just "get over it", but act madly jealous and suspicious of them? I have seen this happen a whole lot and it has happened to me too much in the past, not to see the truth in Urge's post. I think the women and men that can't see it, maybe they just have had extraordinarily good luck with the opposite sex. But to make it clear, if I haven't already, I think both men AND women are guilty of this prejudice against the opposite sex.

Yes. I read the post.

I'm actually 27. I don't know if that still qualifies me for the "young naive bubble" or not. I remember this subject coming up in my sociology class when I was in college back in the early part of this decade.

I know there is a group out there (college fraternity/sororitity types are a good example) that only has very gender specific interests and roles. These types typically stay with their own gender because they believe that only these people have any interest to them and therefore possibly the only ones deserving respect. Apparently, these types of people are the ones that you work with and for that I am sorry.

As for the whole wife-beater scenario, I think that is more a dominance thing than a male/female thing, and that these men beat women because they are perceived as weak. I think they would also beat a man if they were being perceived as such. Rape again falls under that whole power trip thing.

Now there is a another group beyond this gender specific group that blurs the lines on gender roles where both men and women have interests in both stereotypical male/female roles. This is the group that usually doesn't only associate with their gender, but with the opposite sex as well. I do not believe that this group is in the minority.

Maybe this is a generational thing as my peers were all born after the women's liberation movement. My personal interests also expand both stereotypical gender roles, so maybe I'm projecting my personal experience on not living within a gender specific role. Regardless, I do believe that gender roles are changing and the traditional stereotypes are no longer the norm.

Male/female friendship and socializing is becoming the norm, but there are still plenty of people who choose sexual partners and lovers without looking at them as friends. Can you honestly tell me you don't know any men who hang out with other women in a friendly capacity while not spending time socially with the girls they're dating? There are still a lot of divisions there and a lot of people who think it is taboo for friendships to cross into romantic territory, instead of realizing this should be the default. As for rape, yes it is obviously a dominance, but ask yourself: why does an individual feel they have a right to dominate somebody? Women's liberation did happen, but to a certain extent, it's a cultural myth. History isn't that concrete. If Martin Luther King defeated racism as we are taught in elementary school, how come there are still hate groups? I caution you against a complacent sense of triumph over such social ills, Betty Friedan or otherwise. The American male at large still demeans women, still gets girlfriends pregnant and runs out on them, still doesn't respect women as people and still often has a "bros before hos" attitude that is demeaning to relationships. I went to a liberal arts college that I have a feeling is more hippie progressive than most (400 students on a hill living in old farmhouses and eating in a barn) , yet jello shots were still a date rape drug, guys still couldn't wait to ditch their girlfriends to play videogames with their pals and many guys still didn't hold that much of a progressive stance. In this liberal college town, girls were still plowed down with liquor and date raped by townies who ran New Age stores and sold used Noam Chomsky books. It's important to know that the permissive, respectful male is part of a very small group. I'm no misogynist. My mother was an unmarried marine. Taught me to kill a man with my barehands and I knew damn well she could do it to anybody she needed to if it came down to it. I've been dating and living with the same girl for almost five years now and I was a friend to her without laying a hand on her for two years, walking through a blizzard to buy her cigarettes I myself am allergic to. I have no anti-female bias and that's how I can see more clearly when others do and it's still everywhere.

In a nutshell, what I think is this:

Yes, there are definitely still gender stereotypes going on, and the whole men vs. women thing. I don't think it's the majority though, and I definitely wouldn't use the label, "most" when talking how men hate women.

i want to say that maybe i used the word 'hate' to hastily ... but man, i think of the example of wifebeating and rape, and abandonment, and casual bullshit i've had to listen to for years - and i dunno.

strong dislike ? definately a complete lack of respect (in my world thats as close to hate as you can get)


i understand where you're coming from re. wifebeating as a strong VS weak thing .. but i still believe it;s a male/female thing.

i definately believe the majority of men that abuse women do it because yes - the woman is physically weaker - but there's also contempt as a result of the husband/wife rolls. i dont believe most of these guys would physically strike a weaker man ... there isnt the same inherent problem there.
I've never heard a guy say 'the bitch just doesn't listen' about a buddy. the dynamic is very much different.

of course there are those complete psychos that cannot control their anger in any circumstances and attack anything any anyone - but i'm not talking about them - there really arent that many - outside of jail.


i know we feel advanced and superior here in north america - we've made some strides .. but we're far from 100% equality.

men still get paid more for the same job in many many instances.
there is still the glass ceiling ... i've seen some progress with women directors - they're usually in HR.

i know anyone can cite major exceptions to this - but holy crap - there's still no comparrison.

i say great - if you've managed to surround yourself with men who aren't like this ... (although sometimes you never know)

i personally wouldnt spend time - voluntarily - around people like this either.
my friends arent - nor are they racist .. but sadly i see evidence of it everywhere. it started to come together like pieces in a huge puzzle a few months ago ... and now it's so completely clear to me.



so maybe - against my better judgement - i should change the wording to ...

Most Men Don't Respect or Care for Women That Much .... but jesus it just doesnt seem strong enough to me.

when there isnt a reported rape every 1.3 minutes in the USA

(one source : 683,000 adult American women are forcibly raped each year. This equals 56,916 per month; 1,871 per day; 78 per hour; and 1.3 per minute)

then i'll revamp my stance on this ...

i absolutely would. (if we change hate to something a tiny bit less strong - see above post)

After reading this thread I feel so blessed to have good men in my life, when apparently they are few and far between. My boyfriend is my best friend. I've never been ditched for "the guys." We love having a home together and each being with each other immensely. But then again, we were friends first. Too many people get involved romantically without first waiting to see if they can make it as friends first. And honestly, if you can't cut it as friends, you'll never last. On the friends note, I have quite a few guy friends who are all wonderful, women-respecting men. So this is my cheers to all the good men, who enjoy the company of their women and respect their women. Thanks for not joining the majority.

It really does make you appreciate all the good men in your life. There are some members of my family (some, not all :rolleyes: ) and my husband that make me see everyday, there are good guys out there that are respectful, and loving, and appreciate the women in their lives. Like your boyfriend is for you, my husband is also my best friend. So I'm with you, in thanking those that have managed to avoid turning into the kind of men that we are talking about here, for being stronger and smarter than that.

it also shows you have good sense and judge of character (and good luck too i think)

anyone taking the time in a relationship to make sure there's a real partnership has a far less chance of ending up with an asshole ...

but before you found the right guy - how many guys didnt pass the test and why ...?
(i realize it can just be compatabiliy)

I dated a lot of guys before (I'll guess somewhere in the 7-10 range) I found my boyfriend, Tyler, four years ago, and he's been the only long term boyfriend I've had. Most of them didn't make it past the first or second date because they made it so plainly obvious all they cared about was sex. And there was one or two who just were too quiet and I didn't feel any connection at all with. I knew Tyler was a good man though, because I was proud to bring him to meet my family. And they all loved him right away, so I had backup judgment.

I agree with Papillon Noir, I definitely wouldn't say most men hate women.

and i sincerely hope nothing ever happens to change your opinion .

It's hard to believe a theory proposed by some dirty smiling rabbit goblin with pointy ears and creepy looking eyes!

I honestly have to agree with what Nova was saying earlier on.I'm only 24 and that may make some of you think that i am too young to understand where Urge is coming from.I feel alot older than i am and thats because i have to deal with things that most people deal with alot later in life if ever.I am really not sure if i want to believe that most men hate women because i'm trying to be really positive right now.On the negative side,i have to say,i would be one of the women that hates men.I know its unfir to blame the entire male population for the wrong doings of one man.I'm trying hard not to think this way,i really am.I do agree that most men are only looking for a good time and have no intrest in a woman as a person.I just strongly hope that somewhere out there i can find the one that isnt a complete dick.

there are always exceptions. i do know some really good guys who are out there. you just have to take your time and hopefully get to know who they really are, not just what they wanbt you to see.

one thing you can bank on : people are always great when things are going their way ... but if you want to see what someone is really like deep inside - see how they handle negative experiences .. that's the true litmus test.

I'm a senior in high school, I'm around people who refer to women as "bitches" a lot. I hate it, a perfectly nice little church girl gets referred to as "That bitch over there in the green."I fucking hate it. I fucking hate that word, I'll say it jokingly from time to time, but when used to describe something as beautiful as a girl who managed to remain perfectly innocent and uncorrupted all the way through school I can't stand it.

Most of my friends only think of women as something to stick their parts into, I love all of my friends, but that bugs me a lot.

I love girls. The honesty and innocence that some of them have... it just amazes me. I love it. I'd rather spend my time with a group of sweet church girls than most any of my male friends.

I think women are cool. I might be a little annoyed at certain ones for being jerks, but I am annoyed by certain guys who are jerks. You see what I are saying? :confused: :confused: :confused: If I dislike someone I think it's the exception rather than the rule.

I have to say that I nearly universally agree with Urge except with the usage of the word "hate."

I don't believe that men necessarily "hate" women. I believe that it's a perpetuated ingrained sense of disrespect that permeates through our patriarchal society.

But I don't think that men necessarily consider it "disrespect." This "disrespect" comes from a chauvinistic set of expectations that, when a woman does not meet those expectations (ie satisfy physical need or want to diverge from the maternal role, etc.), men subconsciously label these acts with demeaning terms ("bitches" amongst one of them).

every time i read a post where folks cite 'hate' as being too strong ... i try to see it that way ... but man, i'm struggling with it.

maybe its 40% hate
30% strongly dislike
20% tolerate
10% love

i think the hate i've seen has just been so overwhealmingly ugly and loud that it seems more than it is ?

shit - i didnt even mention a lot of other stuff. like the lovely way japanese culturally value their women - among others, violent porn,
(i've actually seen - and i didnt know it was going to be this - porn where guys force themselves down a girls throat violently and hold her nose - making her choke, gag and puke. believe me - the girls dont enjoy themselves.

i've never seen a more vile example of the hatred of women in my life - it was fucking disgusting - not the puking - the thought that it could not only turn on the participant - but the viewers creating a demand for this garbage.


i'm sorry - but hate just keeps coming back.


by the way - i know people who love their wives ... but consider all other women to be unworthy bitches ... complete contempt (not as a misguided pro-wife chivalry - but a complete dislike ... it's bizzare..

and examples like this led me to believe that most women wont even know this exists - or believe it

Hm...Honestly, most chicks annoy me, I got m'self hooked up one that doesn't...or it seems like she makes it all worthwhile.
I think how they annoy me mainly is actually that they seem to let their hearts desire guide them a little too much, overlooking clear faults with their male companions in some cases even abuse...the males in question of course thrive on this, it's a bit of a perpetual cycle.
My mother is actually one of these women, claiming she hooked up with one abusive or headfucked asshole after another, making excuses like "it was for the kids" when it seemed to be she'd been programmed to just take abuse.
Sad, guess it might've ran in the family.
I'm just glad I'm not some abusive cunt, it's most of what I ever saw.

That said, I find even more guys annoying than girls - evoking feelings far closer to hatred than I'd boast for most women, to the point I'd say I generally prefer the company of women.

Not much into people in general, so I might not be the best example.

re - the porn you're talking about urg...that shit's fucked up, I've seen the same thing, people that do that, and/or subscribe to that, are pretty fucked up, like theyre out to see women get exploited/hurt.
Yech.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you totally but there is also quiet a bit of S&M/BDSM porn where the man is the bottom (both gay and Hetro) where they are bound/beaten/needles inserted thru scrotums and hot wax dripped on genitals - so it does work both ways.Of course there is just as much BDSM with female bottoms too..

Its hard to make a general statement tosay that the' girls don't enjoy themselves'. In some scenarios, the person getting 'hurt' does get some thing from - 'enjoy' might not be the right word but it definally something voluntary and something that the get a positive experience from..

But also as you stated there are films where women are taken advantage of - I know film makers do put women into situations where they can't back out etc - producer/'porn star' Max hardcore is a scumbag who is notorious for this..

yeah i know what you're getting at - but in my example - man there is no comparrison.

no pleasure whatsovever for the woman. no excitement from pain - just pure scorn and hate.

Yeah i know what you are talking about - the forementioned Gonzo Max Hardcore type porn....

I would be pretty certain there is gay versions of that type of shit too - so i guess that would be proof of men hating men stuff :)

If you include the Jap society's portrayal of women in their cinema, especially underground stuff, "hate" is not even a strong word at all.

And I dont think "contempt" fits, either.

You misunderstand me.

Here's the thing - I guess I'm making more of a semantic argument here. I'm not saying that "hate" is too strong at all. I think that the word "hate" is too simplistic, Urge.

The reason why you see exploitation, sexploitation, snuff, abuse - Is because these cultures do not even see women as being remotely equal to Men. It's a lack of respect and a lack of consideration for women being other human beings. In this case, it's not necessarily about hate (sometimes it is I am sure)... But ubiquitously, women are not considered as being human to begin with; they're treated like animals, dogs servants. It's not hate; it's a complete and utter disregard for female humanity.

The reason why men (in MM's example) refer to women as "bitches" has nothing to do with hate - it's a complete lack of consideration or empathy. Patriarchy teaches us that the weaker sex is put on this planet to serve as the empty vessel for our procreation and servitude of Men. It's not always "hate." That is WAY too simple. If you don't consider a woman to be human, it's disrespect, condescension, ignorance.

That's not to say that there isn't hate. You just have to look at the issue more holistically.

thats definately the bigger picture scenario which i believe to be true.

See? I KNEW we were fighting on the same team.

I'm not ignorant to say that there aren't men out there that hate women, but the bigger issue is honestly gender bias that permeates throughout society. Unfortunately, it manifests it self more violently in different places (ie Asia, Saudia Arabia, etc).

The reason why I diverge from the word "hate" is that you can make the argument that these Men still love Their Women, though (notice the purposeful possessive pronoun here); Women are Their Mothers, Their Sisters, Their Wives, Their Objects - the Woman existing as a byproduct of the Men (thank you Adam for lending me your rib). Patriarchal society has carved out these restricted gender roles and as soon as a woman diverges from that role - Men feel threatened. It's not necessarily hate. It's gender expectations. I hate it - it drives me crazy, it depresses me, and, quite frankly it's refreshing to hear someone (particularly a Man) bring up these issues. Sure, feminism has come a long way, but we still have a long way to go (especially abroad - no pun intended).

...

And people say feminism is dead.