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GorePhobia
02-14-2004, 09:53 PM
i read all of this....are you all for abortion sam??

Sam The Egg
02-14-2004, 09:53 PM
By the way, since I keep saying no religion, I feel I should make it clear that personally, I believe in souls. No, I don't know whether or not the soul is in the fetus the whole time or not. But not everybody does, so I'm not bringing in my personal religious beliefs into the argument.

Rotting Eye
02-14-2004, 09:59 PM
Hey, why not then.

I'm agnostic, not religious at all. But I believe there are souls also, and that it does go somewhere after you die. Where I'm not sure, and when a fetus is given one I'm not sure.

But neither of those are part of this debate :P

Sam The Egg
02-14-2004, 10:04 PM
Only reason I said it is because I got the feeling that it was gonna start to look like I had some bias against religion. You're right, it isn't part of the debate.


Now...*awaits facts*

Nate
02-14-2004, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by GorePhobia
hey Im with you and sam....soo i can post right?

No offense gore but i think if sam told you to whipe his ass you would.You need a mind of your own and quit being a puppet.And sam you brought up some good points.But thats the great thing about this world u can disagree about things and not get stupid about it.

GorePhobia
02-14-2004, 10:15 PM
wait a sec fucker....dont tell me that im a puppet because i work alone mother fucker....i listen to sam cause he acually knows what the fuck he is saying....so untill i see facts on ur part then maybe i'd listen to you

Sam The Egg
02-14-2004, 10:17 PM
Like I've said over and over again. I'm not necissarily for abortion. My point is that the arguments that support it are fundamentally religious and are thus unimportant as it pertains to outlawing abortion.

Sam The Egg
02-14-2004, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by GorePhobia
wait a sec fucker....dont tell me that im a puppet because i work alone mother fucker....i listen to sam cause he acually knows what the fuck he is saying....so untill i see facts on ur part then maybe i'd listen to you

You're still not helping. Calm down.

GorePhobia
02-14-2004, 10:18 PM
i said that i am for it if the baby isnt fully developed so 2 months....if after 2 months and it starts to fully develop then no don't do it....

GorePhobia
02-14-2004, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by Sam The Egg
You're still not helping. Calm down.

sorry dude he just pisses me off just cause i agree with you that i am up your ass and shit....its just my opinion too....cause I agree with you

Rotting Eye
02-14-2004, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Nate
But thats the great thing about this world u can disagree about things and not get stupid about it.

Ok.. so disagree. With proof. Otherwise you're just like a mother that tells her infant "because I said so."

You need to have backing in your beliefs, otherwise why would you believe in it?

Nate
02-14-2004, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by Rotting Eye
Ok.. so disagree. With proof. Otherwise you're just like a mother that tells her infant "because I said so."

You need to have backing in your beliefs, otherwise why would you believe in it?

I didnt see proof on either side.I do have backing in my beliefs and if someone wants to believe it takes a spine to be considered human life so be it.To me a hearbeat is enough.Scientists crontradict eachother all the time and one will tell you human life starts the way sam decribed and another will tell you it starts right after conception.I agree with some of what he sad just not all of it.Seems the only thing we dissagree on is when its considered a human life.

Sam The Egg
02-14-2004, 10:45 PM
http://www.horror.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4179
There's evidence brought up in there.

It's enough to have a heartbeat? Man, if you're not a vegetarian then you're a cannibal.
If you don't have the physical traits that classify you as a human, you're not human.

By the way, you've yet to list your sources for anything remotely scientific you've brought up.

Rotting Eye
02-14-2004, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by Nate
I didnt see proof on either side.

:rolleyes: You must be blind. Sam already posted some.. and he already beat me to rementioning it.

Haunted
02-15-2004, 06:24 AM
Originally posted by Sam The Egg
I'm still waiting for them to use fact. Yes, science is re-written, and the second they come up with facts that say they're humans the whole time, or that they have souls, fine. But as of right now, the things that classify something as a mammal include both lungs and a spinal chord. They don't have those until 8 weeks in. That is fact. You don't have facts. None of you. You whine about them being living humans, when they aren't human the whole time. Then you say "How do you know" to everything, when you know less because you're so quick to disregard scientific evidence even though it's based in fact. I'm not saying you shouldn't have your own beliefs, but to make laws based on that is wrong, and it's pushing your beliefs on everybody else. You're just as bad as the people who started the "Jesus Died For You" thread. Probably worse, because they never called anybody murderers, they never compared anybody to mass murdering dictators, and they never wished death on people.

You all still have nothing. You haven't brought up one single fact to support anything you've said. And when someone brings in factual evidence to support the opposite side, you're quick to dismiss it and say "Come on, bring something better than THAT". How about you come up with something better than NOTHING. You can't, and that's why you've been so quick to resort to petty insults. You have no proof, no evidence. Just some pseudo-religious bullshit.


Bravo, Sam. Very well stated, I think. I agree that you can have your beliefs, however you can't impose those beliefs on other people. That's the problem with the Religious Right. They try and make everyone have those outdated out moded oppressive beliefs.

C'mon people, don't be like the Religious Right.

Just to clarify and reiterate, I could never have an abortion, but there is no way in hell that I would tell another woman that she couldn't. Fundementally and for myself, I'm Pro-CHOICE. There should always be a choice.

allmykids
02-15-2004, 08:33 AM
This thread is to long so i did not read the whole thing but still want to post how i feel. When i was 15 i became pregnent. My boyfriends parents asked if i had considered abortion. I hit the roof Because my choses came before i got pregnent. When you become pregnent a life starts "FACT". If you stop it you have killed it "FACT". I don't belive we have the right to kill our children. As you can see I have very strong feelings about this. If you don't want a baby, Don't get pregnent!!! I also want you to know that my best friend had an abortion when she was young and while it was hard to hear, I stood by her side. She is still haunted today over that Experence.

Killer Clown#1
02-15-2004, 08:55 AM
I'm not going to type a lengthy explanation, I just think it's wrong.

Nate
02-15-2004, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Sam The Egg
http://www.horror.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4179
There's evidence brought up in there.

It's enough to have a heartbeat? Man, if you're not a vegetarian then you're a cannibal.
If you don't have the physical traits that classify you as a human, you're not human.

By the way, you've yet to list your sources for anything remotely scientific you've brought up.

Im not argueing your point sam.What i want to know is at what point is it ok to have an abortion and what point is not??Just because some people need to hear that it reached what they conider the human stage so is that when it shouldnt be allowed to abort?The sites you posted is nothing new and stuff to be honest u learn in 7th grade.

Why even bring science in this when its a moral issue??science dont teach you morals and values.You place to much on physical traits when without a heartbeat you die right??DNA makes up everythin we become and DNA is unique to each indvidual so therefore DNA is a human life at its earliest stages.DNA seperates us from the rest of the animal kingdom so therefore with testing we know without a doubt its a human life.It doesnt matter that you wanna knocK DNA.The point is once you have DNA you cannott prove against it as being a human life.

fluffho
02-15-2004, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by Nate
Why even bring science in this when its a moral issue??


.....
he's not serious...

please tell me he's not being serious

Haunted
02-15-2004, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Nate
DNA makes up everythin we become and DNA is unique to each indvidual so therefore DNA is a human life at its earliest stages.DNA seperates us from the rest of the animal kingdom so therefore with testing we know without a doubt its a human life.It doesnt matter that you wanna knocK DNA.The point is once you have DNA you cannott prove against it as being a human life.

Uh...DNA is contained within every living thing, and that includes plants and animals. Dude, you might want to re-examine your facts, because you appear to be WRONG.

By the way, Nate, this is not a moral issue, and even if it were what makes you or any other pro-lifer qualified to decide the morals for an ENTIRE FUCKING WORLD? That's why it's not a more issue.

I don't mean to yell at you man, but don't come up in here spouting bullshit. Check your facts. See, if this were an actual debate, you AND Sam would have to qualify your facts with hard data. Sam was pretty good about doing that at the beginning. Let's see some data.

Vodstok
02-15-2004, 12:17 PM
Here, I will distill this whole ting to its base parts.....


Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control for thoses who dont feel like using a pill or copndom, BUT, should be available.

PArtial Birth abortion is SICK, and really should only be used in cases where the mother will die without it.

Regular abortion for women who will die from giving birth, were raped, or are victims of fate in some other way should have nice, vclean, legal facilities available to them without question.


Women who have had an abortion are ALWAYS affected by it emotionally. It is not a "get out of motherhood free" card, it comes with a heavy emotional price that most pro-lifers convenietnly ignore.


Finally, If you are pro-life, then you are volunteering to care for the children that would have otherwise been aborted. If it is ever made illeagal, i will be advertisisng your homes as places for mother to drop off thei runwanted children. By forcing them to have them, you have volunteered to be their caretakers. Have a ball.

fluffho
02-15-2004, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Vodstok
Finally, If you are pro-life, then you are volunteering to care for the children that would have otherwise been aborted. If it is ever made illeagal, i will be advertisisng your homes as places for mother to drop off thei runwanted children. By forcing them to have them, you have volunteered to be their caretakers. Have a ball.

never thought of that, but good one. people always say 'you got pregnant, you're stuck with it.' now as much of an ass that i can be, id go along with that, except how about the child? sure, stupid ass teenagers should take responsibility for their actions, but as much as i'd like for them to have to give up and dreams and partying that they wanted to do, i really couldnt do that to a child.

again, i'm not for partial birth abortion EXCEPT in very special cases (eg my aunt and the brain tumor). however i'm all for gettin a shot/pill and gettin rid of it, rather than raising a kid in a bad situation. you know how most of them turn out.....

Nate
02-15-2004, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Vodstok





Finally, If you are pro-life, then you are volunteering to care for the children that would have otherwise been aborted. If it is ever made illeagal, i will be advertisisng your homes as places for mother to drop off thei runwanted children. By forcing them to have them, you have volunteered to be their caretakers. Have a ball.

I aint volunteerng for shit.People need to take responsbilitys on themselves if they think there responsible enough to get there groove on then they sure as hell need to take responsibility for that child.There are people willing to adopt that cant have children, and sometmes there on awaiting list for years before they ever get to adopt so theres more then eough people willing to adopt.Your making an excuse for people to not take responsibility for there action.so what if the same person has 3 abortions because they keep getting pregnant?they aint learning shit that way and your telling that person its ok??bullshit

Rotting Eye
02-15-2004, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by Nate
I aint volunteerng for shit.People need to take responsbilitys on themselves if they think there responsible enough to get there groove on then they sure as hell need to take responsibility for that child.There are people willing to adopt that cant have children, and sometmes there on awaiting list for years before they ever get to adopt so theres more then eough people willing to adopt.Your making an excuse for people to not take responsibility for there action.so what if the same person has 3 abortions because they keep getting pregnant?they aint learning shit that way and your telling that person its ok??bullshit

So you're either not having sex, or you're hoping that the condom doesn't break, right? People do take responsibilities for their actions- that's why birth control was invented. Like I said earlier, people like to have sex, and mistakes still happen. Teens have sex all the time, and they're practicing it safely. When a mishap does happen, and they're not at all suitable to raise a child, what are they supposed to do? The only other option is adoption, but which is more difficult? Have an abortion, or put your child up for adoption? I don't want that answered, because it's not part of this debate. I just want you to think about it.

Ritualistic
02-15-2004, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Sam The Egg
If you think it has a soul, which makes it human, which makes abortion wrong, that's fine for you. But you can't make it illegal based on that. I could care ess if it is illegal or not.. I think everyone is entitled to do whatever they want to their bodies, but when something is growing inside of you that is another person and killing it is wrong IMO.



I just find it funny that I can go out to a clinic and get a baby ripped out of me after 2 1/2 months of it being inside of me legally, but then I go smoke a joint and I go to jail... Ha Ha

This is an neverending debate, I have been a few pschology classes and debates/discussions about this subject end up in threats and shit like that. Anyone who is for abortion will voice their opinion and anyone who is not will surely voice their opinion as well. You are for it or eighter your not... case closed

Vodstok
02-15-2004, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Nate
I aint volunteerng for shit.People need to take responsbilitys on themselves if they think there responsible enough to get there groove on then they sure as hell need to take responsibility for that child.There are people willing to adopt that cant have children, and sometmes there on awaiting list for years before they ever get to adopt so theres more then eough people willing to adopt.Your making an excuse for people to not take responsibility for there action.so what if the same person has 3 abortions because they keep getting pregnant?they aint learning shit that way and your telling that person its ok??bullshit

I make no excuse for anyone. your insistance of your point, and I of mine are the reason your logic fails. People dont change, or do so rarely. Irresponsible people wont just BECOME responsible. You are making excuses. People with your attitude live in a fantasy world where people have something bad happen to them, and they shape up overnight. Grow up.

And yes, you are volunteering. Quit trying to dictatae what people can and can not do with their bodies.


And do you knwo anyone who hase ever had more than one abortion? do you have any good, relieble, documented proof? What-if arguments are useless without some data to back them up.