More Urgeok Musings : Most Men Hate Women

[urgeok2]

Recently I've become aware of something...
It's true that - if you have a shred of intelligence - you have a better understanding of the world as you get older. You see things, stuff starts to sink in and make sense.

i recently realized not long ago that most men don't like women.

they may want them,
desire them,
need them.

but they dont like them. they are a neccessary evil.
they're good for getting a nut off, for cooking, cleaning, laundry..etc

but they would rather spend 99% of their time doing anything but being around a woman - unless it's in the pursuit or act of sex.

Once i realized this through conversation and observation of action and interraction I started to take a look at the reason why.

there are a bunch of reasons .... but i think the weight of it comes from how children are raised traditionally.

the concept of the fair - or weaker sex is still cultivated today.

****** At this point I'll make a disclaimer ... most of these observations focus on mr average joe. mr steak and potatoes. or backward cultures.
I know there are a number of enlightened people out there trying to change the world with a progressive vision - but they are by far the minority. And they're fighting a battle they will never win********

usually - boys are raised to be the rough kids - encouraged to participate in sports, playing with trucks and cars, getting dirty .... girls are handed dolls and they begin the 'nurturing program' Taking care of things ...playing tea party ... shopping games....

Eventually they grow to teens ... where girls are encouraged to hold on to their virginity until they marry their prince charming, and the boys are not discouraged from chasing everything and anything like it's the national sport.


so now most boys - who are incredibly emotionally immature when this process starts - are faced with the very probable experience with rejection ..

yes yes, no no, please please, wait wait ... etc .and so on.

plus - girls are different ... they like to shop, they dont care about sports, or car engines...

but mostly - they wont put out without a fight or a hell of a lot of hard work.
and how many guys once they get it - immediately lose interest .. and the girl gets branded a slut.... easy.

sounds like 1950s pulp fiction - but it exists today.

i see guys casually referring to women as 'bitches' all the time. not out of anger ... just a word to use. Funny how 'bitch' became such a popular word ... it's used to describe men who arent 'hard'
But i hear more guys referring to women as bitches now - I believe as a result of the popular usage of the word - that guys can now express their true feelings without it being noticeable.

I'm always hearing about guys that need to 'get away with the boys'
they enjoy themselves more 'with the boys' they can be themselves.

why is that ? who are the women they chose to be with that wont let them 'be themselves' why did they settle for that woman ??
because she cooks and keeps the house clean ? she's pretty ?
But she's someone who's incapable of being a friend ?

Men rape. every fucking day men rape. men are predators. and it's not a crime of passion .. its a crime of hate and power. Sept. 2008 in our great and advanced civilization and yet every single city in north america has several places a woman just cant go at night because she'd be 'asking for it'
a guarenteed rape victim.

fucking think about this for a second.

Most men don't like women. they are bitches, they are intimidating, they are impossible to understand, they have only one thing a man could want and after he gets it the woman has no value until he wants it again.

oh - and heaven forbid a woman cheats on a man .. because then they are all sluts. every last one of them - good for nothing dirty sluts.

get rejected by a girl .. they're all bitches .. stuck up fucking bitches.

think i'm making this up ? i work in a corporate environment with 1000's of people - i hear these things all the time. I hear them in the sports i play, i hear them all over.

i DONT hear them from friends because i dont associate with people sad and stupid enough to feel this way - but they exist... and they are the majority.

Most women (unless physically or emotionally abused) wont see much of this - because it wouldnt serve the purpose of any man to show this lovely side of himself to someone who could potentially be of use to him, even if for just a brief time.

personally - i love women... I love the idea of women, i love being around them, the way they look, smell, laugh....
other then the aesthetically pleasing aspects - i dont differentiate between men and woman (other than shoe buying jokes)

i differentiate between stupid and decent people. people i can stand to be around and people i cant .... and the numbers are pretty much even.

i wouldnt marry someone i couldnt be myself with.... someone i couldnt hang out with and do the same things with i would one of the guys.
I have no need to get away - we do things as a group.
I dont got to parties where the guys hang in the den drinking and talking sports and trucks and the tits on the admin assistant, and the women hang in the kitched talking about the sales ... and neither does my wife.

thats a bunch of bullshit but it still exists today - and it is the majority.

dont like it ? - raise your kids not to be stereotypical assholes.

rant off.


what i dont know is ... do most women hate men ? ( i suspect not - but i really cant be sure)

[_____V_____]

I would think so.

Except for the fact that most women are faithful towards their men. Any act of unfaithfulness originates only when their man does something which instigates that.

But generally, women do have a bit of hate towards all men. Plus, they hate women more. Plenty of examples in 20s and 30s women - haven't seen this much in older ones though.

[urgeok2]

I would think so.

Except for the fact that most women are faithful towards their men. Any act of unfaithfulness originates only when their man does something which instigates that.

.

woah - i'd have to disgree with that one ..

not these days

[Vodstok]

what i dont know is ... do most women hate men ? ( i suspect not - but i really cant be sure)
For many of them, everythign you wrote preceeding this. Maybe its because I married a woman who knows more about people than anyone i've ever met, but I am not used to being around women who dont have a firm grasp of how men usually are.

I wasnt actually raised to treat women as equals, but that was one area where my parents managed to not screw up too badly. My dad never treated my mom as anything other than a partner. He worked, she was a housewife, but those were their jobs, and nothign i really associated with their "place" because of their gender.

For this reason, i find 50's style parodies hilarious, because they are just ridiculous. I would love to see a man try to treat my wife like a "typical woman". That would be a very rude awakeneing. :)

[_____V_____]

woah - i'd have to disgree with that one ..

not these days

Yep, these days too. A vast majority still stick with their men - be it drunken bastards or useless asswipes who do nothing all day but get stuck to their couches watching TV and drinking beer.

There is a streak of faithfulness in a woman - you have to admire that.

[Angra]

woah - i'd have to disgree with that one ..

not these days

I have to agree with Urge.

Women are nothing but dirty pigs who only think with their.... erhem.

[urgeok2]

For many of them, everythign you wrote preceeding this.


huh ?

(i think you left a thought uncomplete here)

[urgeok2]

Yep, these days too. A vast majority still stick with their men - be it drunken bastards or useless asswipes who do nothing all day but get stuck to their couches watching TV and drinking beer.

There is a streak of faithfulness in a woman - you have to admire that.

i dont admire that at all (in that scenario)

[Vodstok]

huh ?

(i think you left a thought uncomplete here)
aha, i thought you wrote this:
what i dont know is ... why do most women hate men ?

[urgeok2]

aha, i thought you wrote this:
what i dont know is ... why do most women hate men ?


ohh ok gotcha ... you mean many do - for the very same behaviors i outlined

[_____V_____]

i dont admire that at all (in that scenario)

You d rather have em kick those assholes out eh?

[urgeok2]

You d rather have em kick those assholes out eh?


i'd rather see some strength - survivor instincts.
lack of dependancy.

it's got to be a partnership.

i dont admire willing victims.


we have one life to live .. do everything in your power to make the most of it.

[hellfire1]

I think most women hate other women more. Nobody can rip a woman to shreds better than another woman, cause we know exactly what buttons to push.

Which is why I stay away from them... crazy bitches.

[_____V_____]

I think most women hate other women more. Nobody can rip a woman to shreds better than another woman, cause we know exactly what buttons to push.

Which is why I stay away from them... crazy bitches.

Attaboy, hellfire! :D

[novakru]

I would think so.

Except for the fact that most women are faithful towards their men. Any act of unfaithfulness originates only when their man does something which instigates that.


Amen brother.
I had a list of men I was going to fuck after my BS happened.
Turns out, I just don't have it in me to do that:(



But one day,there will be Justice for pain.
Not so much in the biblical sense or human law.
There has to be a balance between calm and chaos, and these days chaos is the majority, which cannot continue without some serious repercussions.
I have to believe this or else I'll go insane.


Urgeok has alot of valid points.I pretty much agree.
But I think also that there are bad men from bad upbringing and giving the chance, could turn into a very enlightened male not buying into being a base animal.


Also, I have to agree with your point about hating females more.
We get old and guess what? Some cute young twat starts shaking her ass and being adorable.
What man can really resist that and what woman can compete?

[urgeok2]

I think most women hate other women more. Nobody can rip a woman to shreds better than another woman, cause we know exactly what buttons to push.

Which is why I stay away from them... crazy bitches.



i think thats part of the problem again - with how kids are traditionally raised.

i found that as a boy - i was encouraged to play team sports ... and now many years later (i'm stillplaying them) i've seen the benefits - reflected in how men interreact.

there are a lot of insecure guys. That breeds inferiority problems, like mistrust, envy, competition... I'm betting most of these guys didnt play team sports - or play them long.

what i got out of these sports was comraderie, sportsmanship, confidence, fair play, honesty, and the enjoyment of being a team player.

guys who experienced this have better relationships at work .. they dont feel they have to prove something all the time, if there is a conflict they approach it dead on and get it resolved.

(sales and marketing people tend to gravitate to solo sports - which speaks volumes)

until recently - girls weren't encouraged to participate in team sports ...
(its changing though and you can see the positive effects)

but my wife works in a mostly female environment and man are they fucking nuts .. fighting all the time, one camp against the other - people taking sides, back stabbing.

i'm not saying there arent guys that do this but they seem to be the minority - and are not popular people.

I'm not talking about superjocks here ... i'm just talking about guys who learned about teamwork at an early age and brought the positive aspects of that to everything they did later.

[hellfire1]

Attaboy, hellfire! :D



No prob'... just doing my part to fuel the hatred against my gender. ;)

[urgeok2]

Also, I have to agree with your point about hating females more.
We get old and guess what? Some cute young twat starts shaking her ass and being adorable.
What man can really resist that and what woman can compete?

i find that really disturbing ...

cute young twat ?

you're condeming/blaming people for being young and attractive ?

if thats all it takes for a guy to stray - why would want that man ?

youth has it's attractions - but it lacks experience. even as a kid i loved older women... i love the confidence that should come with maturity.
A youthful beautiful body might turn my head for a second in appreciation - but a mature self confident woman exudes a sexiness that keeps my head turned constantly.

bitterness is not attractive.

[Vodstok]

ohh ok gotcha ... you mean many do - for the very same behaviors i outlined
yes.


If i keep it to one word answers, I reduce the risk of looking like an ass...

[novakru]

i find that really disturbing ...

cute young twat ?

you're condeming/blaming people for being young and attractive ? No, I'm not. I have seen alot of these precious young things lately and listened to where there head is at-and THAT is disturbing

if thats all it takes for a guy to stray - why would want that man ?

youth has it's attractions - but it lacks experience. even as a kid i loved older women... i love the confidence that should come with maturity.
A youthful beautiful body might turn my head for a second in appreciation - but a mature self confident woman exudes a sexiness that keeps my head turned constantly.

bitterness is not attractive.
And it's not bitterness, ask any woman over 35 if things are starting to worry her about losing that youth and beauty. Why do you think my age group is the highest percentage going to plastic surgery?
It's not fun growing old in a society that does not value Females in any respect.
Ask ANY female here, I am sure they can explain it better than I.
You have no idea what it like to be born without a dick, it's a whole different world!The pressure that starts before puberty....

You know? If you have a wife that is that secure- then God Bless her soul, but most of us struggle with self-esteem and we don't even know WHY.


I'm done with this converstion-you believe whatever you want about me.

[hellfire1]

until recently - girls weren't encouraged to participate in team sports ...
(its changing though and you can see the positive effects)

but my wife works in a mostly female environment and man are they fucking nuts .. fighting all the time, one camp against the other - people taking sides, back stabbing.

i'm not saying there arent guys that do this but they seem to be the minority - and are not popular people.

I'm not talking about superjocks here ... i'm just talking about guys who learned about teamwork at an early age and brought the positive aspects of that to everything they did later.



I don't know about participating in team sports (which I did... hmm... ok I see your point a bit better), but I do know that women have always been competitive, although for different reasons today. And the reason is men.

And here we are again... back full circle. And it doesn't just happen with the 20s or 30s, although it's more frequent in those age groups. I'm talking 60 year olds trying to compete with 40 year olds, etc... We've been taught that we're not worthy unless we can capture men's attentions and favors. Our only validation comes from a guy's approval. These are ideas that are still perpetuated today and are evident everywhere, even in this damn forum. That's the way it goes. Except women, instead of revolting together against these dangerous thoughts, we lash out on each other.


See? Man-hating dykes and hardcore feminists had it right all along. :p

[The Flayed One]

It can be a vicious circle, the whole older guy younger girl scenario. I just went through one with my last roommate. He had just broke up with his girlfriend and started dating an 18yr old. Then he ended up complaining constantly about her maturity level. Well, she IS 18, mate.

I get the constant guy at work think, too. "Dude, you need to go out and get laid." No, I don't. Getting your rocks off is all fine and dandy, but I find it pointless if it's not with someone who I at least enjoy being around. Not that I didn't spend a few years going to the bar and doing just that. I found out that that loses its charm really quick.

It is partly social upbringing. It's also part of the mans/womans mentality and their ability to learn from their mistakes of being "young, dumb and full of cum." If a guy can't learn that finding someone you enjoy doing things with other than sex is more important than finding that 'smokin' young hottie' then he'll most likely never find anyone of the opposite sex that he can relate to on any level. Therefore, he's going to end up being miserable and possibly hating the opposite sex. If the woman can't get over trying to attract a guy simply by being a hottie and realize that she should probably find a guy who wants to do things with her other than have sex, then she'll inevitably end up losing faith in all men and hating them.

Fortunately, a lot of people seem to learn this as they grow older. Unfortunately, there are just as many who never do.

I have to go with urge on the older female attraction level, too. I've always been attracted to older women since I was a young tyke.

[urgeok2]

And it's not bitterness, ask any woman over 35 if things are starting to worry her about losing that youth and beauty. Why do you think my age group is the highest percentage going to plastic surgery?
It's not fun growing old in a society that does not value Females in any respect.
Ask ANY female here, I am sure they can explain it better than I.
You have no idea what it like to be born without a dick, it's a whole different world!The pressure that starts before puberty....

You know? If you have a wife that is that secure- then God Bless her soul, but most of us struggle with self-esteem and we don't even know WHY.


I'm done with this converstion-you believe whatever you want about me.

i believe things are changing in re. to how older women are perceived .. but women are maturing differently as well.


there is a recent focus on 'quality of life' - in the last 20 years or so.
they are saying that 50 is the new 40 - because of this.

it wasnt long ago that the trend was - well, i'm married - who gives a shit about what kind of shape i'm in... and men - and women would stop taking care of themselves and slip into sexless blob status.

i guess this did bother men more than the women (i'm guessing) because men are more visually driven than women .. not sure why - but this is something else thats changing.


i think older women are coming into their own these days (speaking from personal experience)

shit we have a woman on our floor who must be in her 50's ... she walks with confidence, dresses well, has a decent figure (not a willowy teen figure - but a figure) a sexy walk - and there isnt a guy who doesnt smile when she walks past - young or old.

she kept herself in decent shape - but more important - projects an air of confidence and subtle sexuallity - nothing overt.

i know young guys think every girl has to look like early britney .. but why would any mature woman in her right mind feel she has to compete with that ?

i think 30 - 40 is tough on a woman - but after that many seem to come into their own and become comfortable with themselves - if they made the choice to care about their health and appearance.

and this goes for men too - aklthough nasty old guys seem far TOO comfortable as they mature.


anyway - i dont know why you'd be 'done' with the conversation .. it's an interesting dialogue.

all i think of you is that you aren't as happy as you should be ...

i'd like to see everyone happy. (except a couple of my ex-bosses)

[The Flayed One]

Proof that you can still be extremely sexy in your 50's:

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BOTQxNjAzNTg0NF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwODg4MzU0._V1._ SX257_SY400_.jpg

[urgeok2]

oh yeah ... nothing sexier to me than a little box with a red X in it ..

go baby go !!! :p

[The Flayed One]

This work better?

http://www.mainandcentral.org/home/mainand/public_html/Elvira%20and%20I.jpg

[neverending]

Nobody here is mentioning biological imperative. Is it considered invalid? We may be thinking, feeling individuals, but we are members of a species as well, and as such we have a biological urge to perpetuate the species. It's instinct. Men are hard coded to spread their seed and create as many cubs as possible- for the good of the species. Women seek out a steady relationship so the young can be reared safely- for the good of the species.

I'm not saying this as an endorsement of any religious or political agenda- just from an anthropological standpoint it explains a lot of behavior. Certainly we have free will to behave any way we choose- but I think a lot of people don't make concious choices in their lives- they just go along doing whatever seems easiest at the time.

I was raised in a family where both parents worked but it was apparent to me that my mother was more intelligent and made more money. I also had a talented and intelligent sister. I didn't participate it sports, but I did do theatre- which is just as good for team building skills.

[urgeok2]

oh yeah :) much



mind you- she has to keep looking good for professional reasons .. my hats off to the older women who do it for themselves.


funny - i think some people use the phrase 'cougar' in a negative fashion ..

its a big turn on for me ... good for those older women, looking hot and getting a young guy.

it'll be the most rewarding experience that young man will probably ever have

[urgeok2]

Nobody here is mentioning biological imperative. Is it considered invalid? We may be thinking, feeling individuals, but we are members of a species as well, and as such we have a biological urge to perpetuate the species. It's instinct. Men are hard coded to spread their seed and create as many cubs as possible- for the good of the species. Women seek out a steady relationship so the young can be reared safely- for the good of the species.

I'm not saying this as an endorsement of any religious or political agenda- just from an anthropological standpoint it explains a lot of behavior. Certainly we have free will to behave any way we choose- but I think a lot of people don't make concious choices in their lives- they just go along doing whatever seems easiest at the time.
.

yeah - i was anticipating this and it's valid - for the 'lower order'

we have a lot of built in instincts at a genetic level that we have been able to overcome with our advanced intelligence.

sure if you want to be base and stupid you can allow animal instincts to rule you..

ever see little kids play together ... as soon as they are old enough to notice - the boys and girls seperate .. eventually the black and white kids seperate. it's natural .. like blue fish swimming together, yellow fish swiming together..

but we use our 'superior intelligence' to combat that. we learn that you dont have to be afraid or untrusting of something because it's different.

respect replaces fear.

its the same exact thing as the whole reproduction arguement ...
i know its was the primary reason why we have an urge to have sex, its the primary reason why we continue to survive against all odds .. the continuation of the species ..

but a mature adult surely has control over these things - finds other values in a woman rather than just a place to make a baby.

[hammerfan]

A 49-year-old's opinion:

I don't hate men. Even after multiple failed relationships, I don't hate men. In fact, I enjoy being around men (urge, someday I'm coming to Canada and not telling my uncle). I don't hate women. I also enjoy being around women. Truth be told, I enjoy being around people. Maybe it's my age, I don't know. I have no time for assholes. If you're going to be an asshole - male or female - I'm walking away. Have a great life.

I don't worry about my looks disappearing. I do color my hair, but only because I think the gray makes me look washed out. But as for the wrinkles, sagging, etc. - who gives a shit. I have many female friends that are in their late teens/early 20s.

*steps off soapbox*

[urgeok2]

A 49-year-old's opinion:

I don't hate men. Even after multiple failed relationships, I don't hate men. In fact, I enjoy being around men (urge, someday I'm coming to Canada and not telling my uncle). I don't hate women. I also enjoy being around women. Truth be told, I enjoy being around people. Maybe it's my age, I don't know. I have no time for assholes. If you're going to be an asshole - male or female - I'm walking away. Have a great life.

I don't worry about my looks disappearing. I do color my hair, but only because I think the gray makes me look washed out. But as for the wrinkles, sagging, etc. - who gives a shit. I have many female friends that are in their late teens/early 20s.

*steps off soapbox*

and thats just sexy.

[novakru]

anyway - i dont know why you'd be 'done' with the conversation .. it's an interesting dialogue. (except a couple of my ex-bosses)

Because it's a knee-jerk reaction when someone hits me where truth is.

Bitter? not so much on the harsh side, but I have my moments when I see very clearly a chick shaking her ass at my husband because she has grown up in an even MORE youth and beauty oriented miasma than I and thinks she can pull some stupid shit because I am older, so I couldn't possibly compete with her regardless of what he feels for me.
And I do not doubt this man loves me, because I have made it very clear where the door is if he is not happy, you dig?
He knows I am not the type to resort to dragging him down, or making it hard where the children are concerned. He has free reign to do what he wants and he has chosen to be a family.

Miserable? yes, sometimes I am quite miserable because I feel trapped and there is not a GD thing I can do about right now.
And to top it off, I am getting older, I do not get looked at as much now and honey-I feel it. This is important to me, I am not sure if it's just a Hormone thing or if it was beat into me growing up. Probably a mixture of both.

Shallow? Yes, absolutely, but the truth is I was never approached by male or female because I was smart or a really good person.
And now I am old.
And I have not cultivated my mind or the sense of who I am . My fault, I take full responsiblity for that-but now I am left with not much except to raise some decent children. This is not a lament- just fact.

And before you say it, yes, I have steps in my life right now leading to change what I do not like.
Because I am a big believer in Life Is What You Make It

[Roderick Usher]

dont like it ? - raise your kids not to be stereotypical assholes.

rant off.

I'm a stay at home dad and my wife works full-time - so stereotypes busted here.

[urgeok2]

I'm a stay at home dad and my wife works full-time - so stereotypes busted here.

well, those stereotypes anyway ;)

[Vodstok]

I'm a stay at home dad and my wife works full-time - so stereotypes busted here.
*Snort* Queer....


Oh wait, i was doing that until a month ago....

I like me a strong woman, and they don't get much stronger than Bree. I grew up loving characters like Ripley and Sarah Conner, while the actresses were pretty attractive physically, they were never my type in that department (I like some meat, and i like big boobs. not my fault, i don't know why, i just do), but their attitude and frankly, balls attracted me.

Bree is very speak your mind, take no shit, but has avoided being the "corporate bitch" type who is always on and has pretty much no soft side. She inst a man hating sociopath, just a woman who will voice her opinion without fear of what the other person might say back. She welcomes conflict.

I on the other hand, hate conflict. I have gotten way better about facing it, but i still hate it.

[illdojo]

A 49-year-old's opinion:

I don't hate men. Even after multiple failed relationships, I don't hate men. In fact, I enjoy being around men (urge, someday I'm coming to Canada and not telling my uncle). I don't hate women. I also enjoy being around women. Truth be told, I enjoy being around people. Maybe it's my age, I don't know. I have no time for assholes. If you're going to be an asshole - male or female - I'm walking away. Have a great life.

I don't worry about my looks disappearing. I do color my hair, but only because I think the gray makes me look washed out. But as for the wrinkles, sagging, etc. - who gives a shit. I have many female friends that are in their late teens/early 20s.

*steps off soapbox*

If most people lived by your ideals the world would be a better place, Hammer. :cool:

[X¤MurderDoll¤X]

most men hate women? most women hate women!

infact, the average man doesn't even know what hate is. You can feel hate, it doesn't have a taste but you can still be blindfolded and be like "ok, some bitch is hating me right now. take off this blindfold right now!"

[Angra]

You can feel hate, it doesn't have a taste but you can still be blindfolded and be like "ok, some bitch is hating me right now. take off this blindfold right now!"



Thank you. That didn't make any sense.

[X¤MurderDoll¤X]

Thank you. That didn't make any sense.

Since it's coming from the land of nonsense ambassador, I'm not really phased by that remark. ;)

[urgeok2]

most men hate women? most women hate women!

infact, the average man doesn't even know what hate is. You can feel hate, it doesn't have a taste but you can still be blindfolded and be like "ok, some bitch is hating me right now. take off this blindfold right now!"

that's a woman scorned, emotional, hot flash hate...
like a momentary psycho hate.


the men i'm talking about experience it as a matter of fact - like the sky is blue and the leaves are green.

i'd rather see an emotion invoked on one person in a rage rather than a pathetic loser painting half the planet with the bitch/slut brush because they cant get laid.

[crabapple]

god damn, urge! what is wrong with you? I mean seriously: seriously, think about it, I ask you the question: what the fuck is wrong with you?? writing a thread like this. please be serious. i don't know what yuouare talking about. give it a break man just give it a break okay jeez :confused: :eek: :rolleyes: ;)

[Elvis_Christ]

All Women Are Bad

......................

[urgeok2]

"I may be bad... but I feel good"

....Ash's Dark Princess (Army of Darkness)

[Papillon Noir]

I have to say that this thread is utter CRAP! Most men hate women?! Do you live in a bubble, Urge? It's utterly idiotic and superficial. How can you think that one gender not only dislikes the other gender (and I'm assuming you only mean heterosexuals here), but also only wants to be around them for sex? I can't believe that in this day and age that you don't think men and women do like to be around each other. Maybe I just grew up in a forward thinking town with open minded-people, but I don't really believe that's the case here.

And where is all this hate coming from? I can understand not liking someone based on their personality or views on life, but because of their gender? It's like not liking someone because they are a different race, sexual orientation, etc. I think it's wrong to group people like that and utterly not true in this day and age.

[Abominus]

I can't speak for anyone else. I don't hate my woman and given the option of doing things with or without her I would choose with. We get along as friends as well as partners.

The people who start phrases with "All men are..." or "Every woman is" are small minded idiots.

Wait, what was the topic?

[Doc Faustus]

I have to say that this thread is utter CRAP! Most men hate women?! Do you live in a bubble, Urge? It's utterly idiotic and superficial. How can you think that one gender not only dislikes the other gender (and I'm assuming you only mean heterosexuals here), but also only wants to be around them for sex? I can't believe that in this day and age that you don't think men and women do like to be around each other. Maybe I just grew up in a forward thinking town with open minded-people, but I don't really believe that's the case here.

And where is all this hate coming from? I can understand not liking someone based on their personality or views on life, but because of their gender? It's like not liking someone because they are a different race, sexual orientation, etc. I think it's wrong to group people like that and utterly not true in this day and age.
If you consider the rate of abuse, divorce and teen pregnancy, misogyny is pretty rampant. He is talking about the average man here, and the average man hasn't made much headway into male/female relations. How many guys spend more nonsexual time with their girlfriends and wives then they do working or hanging out with their friends? Not that many. How many men care about sharing interests and viewpoints with a woman before opting to date them? How many guys do you know who date women who they would not be friends with? I think the answer is, in fact, most. Liberalism and conservatism aside, the fact is, that the majority of men do not LIKE women as people. Beyond that, there is a group within that demographic that actively dislikes women as people, and within that demographic, one that hates.

[urgeok2]

I have to say that this thread is utter CRAP! Most men hate women?! Do you live in a bubble, Urge? It's utterly idiotic and superficial. How can you think that one gender not only dislikes the other gender (and I'm assuming you only mean heterosexuals here), but also only wants to be around them for sex? I can't believe that in this day and age that you don't think men and women do like to be around each other. Maybe I just grew up in a forward thinking town with open minded-people, but I don't really believe that's the case here.

And where is all this hate coming from? I can understand not liking someone based on their personality or views on life, but because of their gender? It's like not liking someone because they are a different race, sexual orientation, etc. I think it's wrong to group people like that and utterly not true in this day and age.


1) did you read the post ?

2) how old are you ?

i made a statemement based on 47 years of observation..
do you think i'm championing this ?

it isnt something i like - its something that bothers me ...


i'm assuming you are in your teens or early 20's - in which case you'd be thinking the same thing i was when i was your age - a lot of the things i've observed weren't noticeable to me until not long ago.

if i live in a bubble - it's a pretty big one ...


it's nice that you have a positive outlook ... I am personally doing my best - raising my child to be atypical of this bullshit but i have to say that if you arent able to see what i'm talking about - you're the one in a bubble - albiet a bubble of youth and the limited experience as a result. thats not an insult - its just a reality.


where is the hate coming from ? did you read the post ? i think i explained what i thought were some valid possibilities.

also - as i said above - men dont show this side to women (well except for abused women - but we know that hardly ever happens in this day and age - right ?) because it doesnt serve their purposes now does it.


but many men speak more freely around other men and trust me - the respect isnt there for most of them. far from it.

before i made the post - it's been something i've been discussing with my friends - and believe me - they get it - as do several of the (i'm assuming older) people who responded to the thread before you did.

[Vodstok]

If you consider the rate of abuse, divorce and teen pregnancy, misogyny is pretty rampant. He is talking about the average man here, and the average man hasn't made much headway into male/female relations. How many guys spend more nonsexual time with their girlfriends and wives then they do working or hanging out with their friends? Not that many. How many men care about sharing interests and viewpoints with a woman before opting to date them? How many guys do you know who date women who they would not be friends with? I think the answer is, in fact, most. Liberalism and conservatism aside, the fact is, that the majority of men do not LIKE women as people. Beyond that, there is a group within that demographic that actively dislikes women as people, and within that demographic, one that hates.
My wife is part of a group of women that exists so that their kids can play together, kind of a pre-school socialization group.

To pretty much every woman in the group, I am some sort of miraculous anomaly; a man who cook , cleans, helps take care of the kid(s), doesnt mind taking the kid(s) by myself, doesnt mind (and actively encourages) my wife to go out for drinks, movie, just to hang out, whatever. I even "filled in" for Bree a couple of times so that Lily could go to someone's birthday party. Thier husbands wouldnt think of it. Ever.

Bree thinks its ridiculous that it is such a big deal; I could just as easily sleep outside. :)

[newb]

WoW........I'm awol for 1 day and miss a doozy of a thread.

I get where urge is coming from....run into these kind of people ALL the time. But like urge,,,I don't choose to associate with them....but they are there....in abundance.

My feeling on woman are much different. My wife is pretty much the glue that holds the family together...I would be lost without her.We've been married for over 25 years and I have NEVER cheated. Sure I go "out with the guys" once in a while....and she goes "out with the girls" but for the most part its the two of us....together......two peas in a pod....wait...I feel a song coming on



I see the crystal raindrops fall
And the beauty of it all
when the sun comes shining through
To make those rainbows in my mind
When I think of you some time
And I want to spend some time with you

CHORUS:Just the two of us
We can make it if we try
Just the two of us
Just the two of us
Building castles in the sky
Just the two of us
You and I
We look for love, no time for tears
Wasted waters's all that is
And it don't make no flowers grow
Good things might come to those who wait
Not to those who wait to late
We got to go for all we know

[Vodstok]

I see the crystal raindrops fall
And the beauty of it all
when the sun comes shining through
To make those rainbows in my mind
When I think of you some time
And I want to spend some time with you

CHORUS:Just the two of us
We can make it if we try
Just the two of us
Just the two of us
Building castles in the sky
Just the two of us
You and I
We look for love, no time for tears
Wasted waters's all that is
And it don't make no flowers grow
Good things might come to those who wait
Not to those who wait to late
We got to go for all we know
*Lights bic, holds it up*

I'm the same way. Without Bree, I would just be a dirty, smelly guy in a dirty house. Not that she does all of the cleaning, but I wouldnt if her shoe wasnt planted firmly in my lazy ass :)

[Angra]

WoW........I'm awol for 1 day and miss a doozy of a thread.

I get where urge is coming from....run into these kind of people ALL the time. But like urge,,,I don't choose to associate with them....but they are there....in abundance.

My feeling on woman are much different. My wife is pretty much the glue that holds the family together...I would be lost without her.We've been married for over 25 years and I have NEVER cheated. Sure I go "out with the guys" once in a while....and she goes "out with the girls" but for the most part its the two of us....together......two peas in a pod....wait...I feel a song coming on



I see the crystal raindrops fall
And the beauty of it all
when the sun comes shining through
To make those rainbows in my mind
When I think of you some time
And I want to spend some time with you

CHORUS:Just the two of us
We can make it if we try
Just the two of us
Just the two of us
Building castles in the sky
Just the two of us
You and I
We look for love, no time for tears
Wasted waters's all that is
And it don't make no flowers grow
Good things might come to those who wait
Not to those who wait to late
We got to go for all we know



Please Newb.. The "mushy thread" is further down the page.

[newb]

Please Newb.. The "mushy thread" is further down the page.

Just telling it like it is bro.

You see these old couples around and think...."look at them....they barely even speak to each other". The truth is....after 25 years together..speech is not necessary......communication is all telepathic.




you will see........soon you will find a female Gary Sinese and fall madly in love...get married....and have little Gary Sinese's.

[Angra]

Just telling it like it is bro.

You see these old couples around and think...."look at them....they barely even speak to each other". The truth is....after 25 years together..speech is not necessary......communication is all telepathic.




you will see........soon you will find a female Gary Sinese and fall madly in love...get married....and have little Gary Sinese's.


Sound's good, dude. :)

[jenna26]

If you consider the rate of abuse, divorce and teen pregnancy, misogyny is pretty rampant. He is talking about the average man here, and the average man hasn't made much headway into male/female relations. How many guys spend more nonsexual time with their girlfriends and wives then they do working or hanging out with their friends? Not that many. How many men care about sharing interests and viewpoints with a woman before opting to date them? How many guys do you know who date women who they would not be friends with? I think the answer is, in fact, most. Liberalism and conservatism aside, the fact is, that the majority of men do not LIKE women as people. Beyond that, there is a group within that demographic that actively dislikes women as people, and within that demographic, one that hates.

This makes all of the sense in the world to me.
I read this thread yesterday, but haven't had a chance to respond so here goes.....
I do think in some ways saying that most men hate women is pretty strong, but there is.....truth in it. And let me explain to some of the women or men that might disagree where I am coming from here. Early on, I had VERY rocky relationships, mostly that was on me, because honestly I distrusted and in general, feared men (outside of my family). I had good reasons, and I swear it seemed sometimes I was almost seeking out men to prove me RIGHT. I dated some real jackasses, but moving on......I spent a lot of time alone. Before I met my husband, I didn't even date for years. I didn't want to attract men, I've never been a very pretty girl, but I like that. I like to not bring attention to myself purely based on my looks. Now that everyone kind of understands how fucked up I was about such things....;) I will say that during that very loooong period of time that I wasn't dating, I actually started to enjoy the company of men. As friends. Some of my best friends have been men. And I have found in my admittedly limited, but convincing experience, that generally men have made much better friends than lovers or partners (except for my husband). The men that were so damn good to me as a friend, the ones that loved to spend time with me, honestly enjoyed my company, asked my advice....etc. would "fall in love" with a woman and start to treat that woman so appallingly bad that I was shocked, and it didn't help my previous hesitation to be in a romantic relationship. They would think of reasons to avoid going home, lie, sometimes cheat, complain about what a bitch she was...sometimes worse....needless to say, most of my friendships died a slow death after they found someone.....:rolleyes:

The reason I think this is, is that a lot of people "settle". I think a lot men and women just haven't figured out how to be friends, as well as lovers. I don't think many believe it even possible. These men would get with women that they found sexually exciting, or made their life easier, or a combination of both and then seemed to want to build a whole life based on that. They love the sex, they love the way they look.....after that, they have NOTHING in common. I think women can be like this too, they are drawn to the guy that turns them on, and don't really seem to get past that. I think that is why so many marriages fail. They forget to actually get to know the other person, and once they do, they realize they don't really like them very much. People seem so focused on the passion of conflict, that they don't seem to realize that you can have passion AND friendship in their relationship. And some men, and hell, some woman, just don't seem to want that anyway.

My husband has noticed the same thing at work, the guys there are always complaining about their wives. There are clubs specially designed so men don't have to go home to their wives or girlfriends. They are completely baffled about why my husband actually ENJOYS being home. We enjoy each other's company. We're friends. We excite each other, but we also agree on a whole lot. We don't fight about petty shit. And hey, he hardly ever "goes out with the boys". He doesn't seem to care for "the boys" very much. :p

But do I think this guys hate their wives/girlfriends? No. Do I think they dislike them? Yes, on some level they obviously do. If not, why do they avoid going home? How can they casually throw the word bitch around? Why do they cheat, and expect the woman to just "get over it", but act madly jealous and suspicious of them? I have seen this happen a whole lot and it has happened to me too much in the past, not to see the truth in Urge's post. I think the women and men that can't see it, maybe they just have had extraordinarily good luck with the opposite sex. But to make it clear, if I haven't already, I think both men AND women are guilty of this prejudice against the opposite sex.

[Papillon Noir]

1) did you read the post ?

2) how old are you ?

i made a statemement based on 47 years of observation..
do you think i'm championing this ?

it isnt something i like - its something that bothers me ...


i'm assuming you are in your teens or early 20's - in which case you'd be thinking the same thing i was when i was your age - a lot of the things i've observed weren't noticeable to me until not long ago.

if i live in a bubble - it's a pretty big one ...


it's nice that you have a positive outlook ... I am personally doing my best - raising my child to be atypical of this bullshit but i have to say that if you arent able to see what i'm talking about - you're the one in a bubble - albiet a bubble of youth and the limited experience as a result. thats not an insult - its just a reality.


where is the hate coming from ? did you read the post ? i think i explained what i thought were some valid possibilities.

also - as i said above - men dont show this side to women (well except for abused women - but we know that hardly ever happens in this day and age - right ?) because it doesnt serve their purposes now does it.


but many men speak more freely around other men and trust me - the respect isnt there for most of them. far from it.

before i made the post - it's been something i've been discussing with my friends - and believe me - they get it - as do several of the (i'm assuming older) people who responded to the thread before you did.

Yes. I read the post.

I'm actually 27. I don't know if that still qualifies me for the "young naive bubble" or not. I remember this subject coming up in my sociology class when I was in college back in the early part of this decade.

I know there is a group out there (college fraternity/sororitity types are a good example) that only has very gender specific interests and roles. These types typically stay with their own gender because they believe that only these people have any interest to them and therefore possibly the only ones deserving respect. Apparently, these types of people are the ones that you work with and for that I am sorry.

As for the whole wife-beater scenario, I think that is more a dominance thing than a male/female thing, and that these men beat women because they are perceived as weak. I think they would also beat a man if they were being perceived as such. Rape again falls under that whole power trip thing.

Now there is a another group beyond this gender specific group that blurs the lines on gender roles where both men and women have interests in both stereotypical male/female roles. This is the group that usually doesn't only associate with their gender, but with the opposite sex as well. I do not believe that this group is in the minority.

Maybe this is a generational thing as my peers were all born after the women's liberation movement. My personal interests also expand both stereotypical gender roles, so maybe I'm projecting my personal experience on not living within a gender specific role. Regardless, I do believe that gender roles are changing and the traditional stereotypes are no longer the norm.

[Doc Faustus]

Yes. I read the post.

I'm actually 27. I don't know if that still qualifies me for the "young naive bubble" or not. I remember this subject coming up in my sociology class when I was in college back in the early part of this decade.

I know there is a group out there (college fraternity/sororitity types are a good example) that only has very gender specific interests and roles. These types typically stay with their own gender because they believe that only these people have any interest to them and therefore possibly the only ones deserving respect. Apparently, these types of people are the ones that you work with and for that I am sorry.

As for the whole wife-beater scenario, I think that is more a dominance thing than a male/female thing, and that these men beat women because they are perceived as weak. I think they would also beat a man if they were being perceived as such. Rape again falls under that whole power trip thing.

Now there is a another group beyond this gender specific group that blurs the lines on gender roles where both men and women have interests in both stereotypical male/female roles. This is the group that usually doesn't only associate with their gender, but with the opposite sex as well. I do not believe that this group is in the minority.

Maybe this is a generational thing as my peers were all born after the women's liberation movement. My personal interests also expand both stereotypical gender roles, so maybe I'm projecting my personal experience on not living within a gender specific role. Regardless, I do believe that gender roles are changing and the traditional stereotypes are no longer the norm.
Male/female friendship and socializing is becoming the norm, but there are still plenty of people who choose sexual partners and lovers without looking at them as friends. Can you honestly tell me you don't know any men who hang out with other women in a friendly capacity while not spending time socially with the girls they're dating? There are still a lot of divisions there and a lot of people who think it is taboo for friendships to cross into romantic territory, instead of realizing this should be the default. As for rape, yes it is obviously a dominance, but ask yourself: why does an individual feel they have a right to dominate somebody? Women's liberation did happen, but to a certain extent, it's a cultural myth. History isn't that concrete. If Martin Luther King defeated racism as we are taught in elementary school, how come there are still hate groups? I caution you against a complacent sense of triumph over such social ills, Betty Friedan or otherwise. The American male at large still demeans women, still gets girlfriends pregnant and runs out on them, still doesn't respect women as people and still often has a "bros before hos" attitude that is demeaning to relationships. I went to a liberal arts college that I have a feeling is more hippie progressive than most (400 students on a hill living in old farmhouses and eating in a barn) , yet jello shots were still a date rape drug, guys still couldn't wait to ditch their girlfriends to play videogames with their pals and many guys still didn't hold that much of a progressive stance. In this liberal college town, girls were still plowed down with liquor and date raped by townies who ran New Age stores and sold used Noam Chomsky books. It's important to know that the permissive, respectful male is part of a very small group. I'm no misogynist. My mother was an unmarried marine. Taught me to kill a man with my barehands and I knew damn well she could do it to anybody she needed to if it came down to it. I've been dating and living with the same girl for almost five years now and I was a friend to her without laying a hand on her for two years, walking through a blizzard to buy her cigarettes I myself am allergic to. I have no anti-female bias and that's how I can see more clearly when others do and it's still everywhere.

[Papillon Noir]

Male/female friendship and socializing is becoming the norm, but there are still plenty of people who choose sexual partners and lovers without looking at them as friends. Can you honestly tell me you don't know any men who hang out with other women in a friendly capacity while not spending time socially with the girls they're dating? There are still a lot of divisions there and a lot of people who think it is taboo for friendships to cross into romantic territory, instead of realizing this should be the default. As for rape, yes it is obviously a dominance, but ask yourself: why does an individual feel they have a right to dominate somebody? Women's liberation did happen, but to a certain extent, it's a cultural myth. History isn't that concrete. If Martin Luther King defeated racism as we are taught in elementary school, how come there are still hate groups? I caution you against a complacent sense of triumph over such social ills, Betty Friedan or otherwise. The American male at large still demeans women, still gets girlfriends pregnant and runs out on them, still doesn't respect women as people and still often has a "bros before hos" attitude that is demeaning to relationships. I went to a liberal arts college that I have a feeling is more hippie progressive than most (400 students on a hill living in old farmhouses and eating in a barn) , yet jello shots were still a date rape drug, guys still couldn't wait to ditch their girlfriends to play videogames with their pals and many guys still didn't hold that much of a progressive stance. In this liberal college town, girls were still plowed down with liquor and date raped by townies who ran New Age stores and sold used Noam Chomsky books. It's important to know that the permissive, respectful male is part of a very small group. I'm no misogynist. My mother was an unmarried marine. Taught me to kill a man with my barehands and I knew damn well she could do it to anybody she needed to if it came down to it. I've been dating and living with the same girl for almost five years now and I was a friend to her without laying a hand on her for two years, walking through a blizzard to buy her cigarettes I myself am allergic to. I have no anti-female bias and that's how I can see more clearly when others do and it's still everywhere.

In a nutshell, what I think is this:

Yes, there are definitely still gender stereotypes going on, and the whole men vs. women thing. I don't think it's the majority though, and I definitely wouldn't use the label, "most" when talking how men hate women.

[urgeok2]

i want to say that maybe i used the word 'hate' to hastily ... but man, i think of the example of wifebeating and rape, and abandonment, and casual bullshit i've had to listen to for years - and i dunno.

strong dislike ? definately a complete lack of respect (in my world thats as close to hate as you can get)


i understand where you're coming from re. wifebeating as a strong VS weak thing .. but i still believe it;s a male/female thing.

i definately believe the majority of men that abuse women do it because yes - the woman is physically weaker - but there's also contempt as a result of the husband/wife rolls. i dont believe most of these guys would physically strike a weaker man ... there isnt the same inherent problem there.
I've never heard a guy say 'the bitch just doesn't listen' about a buddy. the dynamic is very much different.

of course there are those complete psychos that cannot control their anger in any circumstances and attack anything any anyone - but i'm not talking about them - there really arent that many - outside of jail.


i know we feel advanced and superior here in north america - we've made some strides .. but we're far from 100% equality.

men still get paid more for the same job in many many instances.
there is still the glass ceiling ... i've seen some progress with women directors - they're usually in HR.

i know anyone can cite major exceptions to this - but holy crap - there's still no comparrison.

i say great - if you've managed to surround yourself with men who aren't like this ... (although sometimes you never know)

i personally wouldnt spend time - voluntarily - around people like this either.
my friends arent - nor are they racist .. but sadly i see evidence of it everywhere. it started to come together like pieces in a huge puzzle a few months ago ... and now it's so completely clear to me.



so maybe - against my better judgement - i should change the wording to ...

Most Men Don't Respect or Care for Women That Much .... but jesus it just doesnt seem strong enough to me.

when there isnt a reported rape every 1.3 minutes in the USA

(one source : 683,000 adult American women are forcibly raped each year. This equals 56,916 per month; 1,871 per day; 78 per hour; and 1.3 per minute)

then i'll revamp my stance on this ...

[urgeok2]

... and I definitely wouldn't use the label, "most" when talking how men hate women.

i absolutely would. (if we change hate to something a tiny bit less strong - see above post)

[La Chat Noire]

After reading this thread I feel so blessed to have good men in my life, when apparently they are few and far between. My boyfriend is my best friend. I've never been ditched for "the guys." We love having a home together and each being with each other immensely. But then again, we were friends first. Too many people get involved romantically without first waiting to see if they can make it as friends first. And honestly, if you can't cut it as friends, you'll never last. On the friends note, I have quite a few guy friends who are all wonderful, women-respecting men. So this is my cheers to all the good men, who enjoy the company of their women and respect their women. Thanks for not joining the majority.

[jenna26]

After reading this thread I feel so blessed to have good men in my life, when apparently they are few and far between. My boyfriend is my best friend. I've never been ditched for "the guys." We love having a home together and each being with each other immensely. But then again, we were friends first. Too many people get involved romantically without first waiting to see if they can make it as friends first. And honestly, if you can't cut it as friends, you'll never last. On the friends note, I have quite a few guy friends who are all wonderful, women-respecting men. So this is my cheers to all the good men, who enjoy the company of their women and respect their women. Thanks for not joining the majority.

It really does make you appreciate all the good men in your life. There are some members of my family (some, not all :rolleyes: ) and my husband that make me see everyday, there are good guys out there that are respectful, and loving, and appreciate the women in their lives. Like your boyfriend is for you, my husband is also my best friend. So I'm with you, in thanking those that have managed to avoid turning into the kind of men that we are talking about here, for being stronger and smarter than that.

[urgeok2]

it also shows you have good sense and judge of character (and good luck too i think)

anyone taking the time in a relationship to make sure there's a real partnership has a far less chance of ending up with an asshole ...

but before you found the right guy - how many guys didnt pass the test and why ...?
(i realize it can just be compatabiliy)

[La Chat Noire]

I dated a lot of guys before (I'll guess somewhere in the 7-10 range) I found my boyfriend, Tyler, four years ago, and he's been the only long term boyfriend I've had. Most of them didn't make it past the first or second date because they made it so plainly obvious all they cared about was sex. And there was one or two who just were too quiet and I didn't feel any connection at all with. I knew Tyler was a good man though, because I was proud to bring him to meet my family. And they all loved him right away, so I had backup judgment.

[X¤MurderDoll¤X]

I agree with Papillon Noir, I definitely wouldn't say most men hate women.

[urgeok2]

I agree with Papillon Noir, I definitely wouldn't say most men hate women.

and i sincerely hope nothing ever happens to change your opinion .

[crabapple]

It's hard to believe a theory proposed by some dirty smiling rabbit goblin with pointy ears and creepy looking eyes!

[pinkfloyd45769]

I honestly have to agree with what Nova was saying earlier on.I'm only 24 and that may make some of you think that i am too young to understand where Urge is coming from.I feel alot older than i am and thats because i have to deal with things that most people deal with alot later in life if ever.I am really not sure if i want to believe that most men hate women because i'm trying to be really positive right now.On the negative side,i have to say,i would be one of the women that hates men.I know its unfir to blame the entire male population for the wrong doings of one man.I'm trying hard not to think this way,i really am.I do agree that most men are only looking for a good time and have no intrest in a woman as a person.I just strongly hope that somewhere out there i can find the one that isnt a complete dick.

[urgeok2]

I just strongly hope that somewhere out there i can find the one that isnt a complete dick.

there are always exceptions. i do know some really good guys who are out there. you just have to take your time and hopefully get to know who they really are, not just what they wanbt you to see.

one thing you can bank on : people are always great when things are going their way ... but if you want to see what someone is really like deep inside - see how they handle negative experiences .. that's the true litmus test.

[massacre man]

I'm a senior in high school, I'm around people who refer to women as "bitches" a lot. I hate it, a perfectly nice little church girl gets referred to as "That bitch over there in the green."I fucking hate it. I fucking hate that word, I'll say it jokingly from time to time, but when used to describe something as beautiful as a girl who managed to remain perfectly innocent and uncorrupted all the way through school I can't stand it.

Most of my friends only think of women as something to stick their parts into, I love all of my friends, but that bugs me a lot.

I love girls. The honesty and innocence that some of them have... it just amazes me. I love it. I'd rather spend my time with a group of sweet church girls than most any of my male friends.

[crabapple]

I think women are cool. I might be a little annoyed at certain ones for being jerks, but I am annoyed by certain guys who are jerks. You see what I are saying? :confused: :confused: :confused: If I dislike someone I think it's the exception rather than the rule.

[ChronoGrl]

I have to say that I nearly universally agree with Urge except with the usage of the word "hate."

I don't believe that men necessarily "hate" women. I believe that it's a perpetuated ingrained sense of disrespect that permeates through our patriarchal society.

But I don't think that men necessarily consider it "disrespect." This "disrespect" comes from a chauvinistic set of expectations that, when a woman does not meet those expectations (ie satisfy physical need or want to diverge from the maternal role, etc.), men subconsciously label these acts with demeaning terms ("bitches" amongst one of them).

[urgeok2]

every time i read a post where folks cite 'hate' as being too strong ... i try to see it that way ... but man, i'm struggling with it.

maybe its 40% hate
30% strongly dislike
20% tolerate
10% love

i think the hate i've seen has just been so overwhealmingly ugly and loud that it seems more than it is ?

shit - i didnt even mention a lot of other stuff. like the lovely way japanese culturally value their women - among others, violent porn,
(i've actually seen - and i didnt know it was going to be this - porn where guys force themselves down a girls throat violently and hold her nose - making her choke, gag and puke. believe me - the girls dont enjoy themselves.

i've never seen a more vile example of the hatred of women in my life - it was fucking disgusting - not the puking - the thought that it could not only turn on the participant - but the viewers creating a demand for this garbage.


i'm sorry - but hate just keeps coming back.


by the way - i know people who love their wives ... but consider all other women to be unworthy bitches ... complete contempt (not as a misguided pro-wife chivalry - but a complete dislike ... it's bizzare..

and examples like this led me to believe that most women wont even know this exists - or believe it

[Phalanx]

Hm...Honestly, most chicks annoy me, I got m'self hooked up one that doesn't...or it seems like she makes it all worthwhile.
I think how they annoy me mainly is actually that they seem to let their hearts desire guide them a little too much, overlooking clear faults with their male companions in some cases even abuse...the males in question of course thrive on this, it's a bit of a perpetual cycle.
My mother is actually one of these women, claiming she hooked up with one abusive or headfucked asshole after another, making excuses like "it was for the kids" when it seemed to be she'd been programmed to just take abuse.
Sad, guess it might've ran in the family.
I'm just glad I'm not some abusive cunt, it's most of what I ever saw.

That said, I find even more guys annoying than girls - evoking feelings far closer to hatred than I'd boast for most women, to the point I'd say I generally prefer the company of women.

Not much into people in general, so I might not be the best example.

re - the porn you're talking about urg...that shit's fucked up, I've seen the same thing, people that do that, and/or subscribe to that, are pretty fucked up, like theyre out to see women get exploited/hurt.
Yech.

[Ferox13]

i didnt even mention a lot of other stuff. like the lovely way japanese culturally value their women - among others, violent porn,
(i've actually seen - and i didnt know it was going to be this - porn where guys force themselves down a girls throat violently and hold her nose - making her choke, gag and puke. believe me - the girls dont enjoy themselves.


Not that I'm disagreeing with you totally but there is also quiet a bit of S&M/BDSM porn where the man is the bottom (both gay and Hetro) where they are bound/beaten/needles inserted thru scrotums and hot wax dripped on genitals - so it does work both ways.Of course there is just as much BDSM with female bottoms too..

Its hard to make a general statement tosay that the' girls don't enjoy themselves'. In some scenarios, the person getting 'hurt' does get some thing from - 'enjoy' might not be the right word but it definally something voluntary and something that the get a positive experience from..

But also as you stated there are films where women are taken advantage of - I know film makers do put women into situations where they can't back out etc - producer/'porn star' Max hardcore is a scumbag who is notorious for this..

[urgeok2]

Not that I'm disagreeing with you totally but there is also quiet a bit of S&M/BDSM porn where the man is the bottom (both gay and Hetro) where they are bound/beaten/needles inserted thru scrotums and hot wax dripped on genitals - so it does work both ways.Of course there is just as much BDSM with female bottoms too..
.


yeah i know what you're getting at - but in my example - man there is no comparrison.

no pleasure whatsovever for the woman. no excitement from pain - just pure scorn and hate.

[Ferox13]

Yeah i know what you are talking about - the forementioned Gonzo Max Hardcore type porn....

I would be pretty certain there is gay versions of that type of shit too - so i guess that would be proof of men hating men stuff :)

[_____V_____]

If you include the Jap society's portrayal of women in their cinema, especially underground stuff, "hate" is not even a strong word at all.

And I dont think "contempt" fits, either.

[ChronoGrl]

every time i read a post where folks cite 'hate' as being too strong ... i try to see it that way ... but man, i'm struggling with it.

maybe its 40% hate
30% strongly dislike
20% tolerate
10% love

i think the hate i've seen has just been so overwhealmingly ugly and loud that it seems more than it is ?

shit - i didnt even mention a lot of other stuff. like the lovely way japanese culturally value their women - among others, violent porn,
(i've actually seen - and i didnt know it was going to be this - porn where guys force themselves down a girls throat violently and hold her nose - making her choke, gag and puke. believe me - the girls dont enjoy themselves.

i've never seen a more vile example of the hatred of women in my life - it was fucking disgusting - not the puking - the thought that it could not only turn on the participant - but the viewers creating a demand for this garbage.


i'm sorry - but hate just keeps coming back.


by the way - i know people who love their wives ... but consider all other women to be unworthy bitches ... complete contempt (not as a misguided pro-wife chivalry - but a complete dislike ... it's bizzare..

and examples like this led me to believe that most women wont even know this exists - or believe it

You misunderstand me.

Here's the thing - I guess I'm making more of a semantic argument here. I'm not saying that "hate" is too strong at all. I think that the word "hate" is too simplistic, Urge.

The reason why you see exploitation, sexploitation, snuff, abuse - Is because these cultures do not even see women as being remotely equal to Men. It's a lack of respect and a lack of consideration for women being other human beings. In this case, it's not necessarily about hate (sometimes it is I am sure)... But ubiquitously, women are not considered as being human to begin with; they're treated like animals, dogs servants. It's not hate; it's a complete and utter disregard for female humanity.

The reason why men (in MM's example) refer to women as "bitches" has nothing to do with hate - it's a complete lack of consideration or empathy. Patriarchy teaches us that the weaker sex is put on this planet to serve as the empty vessel for our procreation and servitude of Men. It's not always "hate." That is WAY too simple. If you don't consider a woman to be human, it's disrespect, condescension, ignorance.

That's not to say that there isn't hate. You just have to look at the issue more holistically.

[urgeok2]

You misunderstand me.

Here's the thing - I guess I'm making more of a semantic argument here. I'm not saying that "hate" is too strong at all. I think that the word "hate" is too simplistic, Urge.

The reason why you see exploitation, sexploitation, snuff, abuse - Is because these cultures do not even see women as being remotely equal to Men. It's a lack of respect and a lack of consideration for women being other human beings. In this case, it's not necessarily about hate (sometimes it is I am sure)... But ubiquitously, women are not considered as being human to begin with; they're treated like animals, dogs servants. It's not hate; it's a complete and utter disregard for female humanity.

The reason why men (in MM's example) refer to women as "bitches" has nothing to do with hate - it's a complete lack of consideration or empathy. Patriarchy teaches us that the weaker sex is put on this planet to serve as the empty vessel for our procreation and servitude of Men. It's not always "hate." That is WAY too simple. If you don't consider a woman to be human, it's disrespect, condescension, ignorance.

That's not to say that there isn't hate. You just have to look at the issue more holistically.

thats definately the bigger picture scenario which i believe to be true.

[ChronoGrl]

thats definately the bigger picture scenario which i believe to be true.

See? I KNEW we were fighting on the same team.

I'm not ignorant to say that there aren't men out there that hate women, but the bigger issue is honestly gender bias that permeates throughout society. Unfortunately, it manifests it self more violently in different places (ie Asia, Saudia Arabia, etc).

The reason why I diverge from the word "hate" is that you can make the argument that these Men still love Their Women, though (notice the purposeful possessive pronoun here); Women are Their Mothers, Their Sisters, Their Wives, Their Objects - the Woman existing as a byproduct of the Men (thank you Adam for lending me your rib). Patriarchal society has carved out these restricted gender roles and as soon as a woman diverges from that role - Men feel threatened. It's not necessarily hate. It's gender expectations. I hate it - it drives me crazy, it depresses me, and, quite frankly it's refreshing to hear someone (particularly a Man) bring up these issues. Sure, feminism has come a long way, but we still have a long way to go (especially abroad - no pun intended).

...

And people say feminism is dead.

[urgeok2]

...as soon as a woman diverges from that role - weak Men feel threatened.



that statement needed fixing :)

[ChronoGrl]

that statement needed fixing :)

True. VERY true.

And I'd like to go out of my way right now to say that I TOTALLY heart Urge.

*cuddles Urge*

[monster123]

So this is a semi old thread i decided to read and all i can say is your a pretty awesome guy probably one of the best I've ever seen. I grew up in a family that completely hates women, my fathers first marriege went to hell and now he treats his second wife (my mom) like dirt. He taught his boys that women were sluts and evil. So i totally get what your saying people need to raise there kids to love and cherish women. I think your a good person Urgeok! (idk your real name).

[Leprucky Cougar]

So this is a semi old thread i decided to read and all i can say is your a pretty awesome guy probably one of the best I've ever seen. I grew up in a family that completely hates women, my fathers first marriege went to hell and now he treats his second wife (my mom) like dirt. He taught his boys that women were sluts and evil. So i totally get what your saying people need to raise there kids to love and cherish women. I think your a good person Urgeok! (idk your real name).

Has she considered divorcing him?

I'm a female and I grew up in a household with both parents and they both respected each other. My mom however, is my dad's second wife. He divorced his first because of very caniving things she did to him (and kept away from him in the past). Before he met my mother, I wouldn't say he gave up on women, because like many of you guys was a "nice guy"--a gentleman even. But after enduring all he did with his ex-wife, he was skeptical about women and their intentions; and his only weakness when I think about it was loving one (a woman) either too easily or too hard (not knowing, but thinking the feeling's mutual).

I think China though builds being sexist as a family value. There's a child limit there and all female children are disapprovals and "disgraces" to them; I assume that's why so many Americans adopt chinese girls and bring them to America.

[crabapple]

I heart urge too! :) :)

Well not really :mad: :eek: :rolleyes:

[Leprucky Cougar]

I heart urge too! :) :)

Well not really :mad: :eek: :rolleyes:

Yeah urge is awesome !

[monster123]

Has she considered divorcing him?

I'm a female and I grew up in a household with both parents and they both respected each other. My mom however, is my dad's second wife. He divorced his first because of very caniving things she did to him (and kept away from him in the past). Before he met my mother, I wouldn't say he gave up on women, because like many of you guys was a "nice guy"--a gentleman even. But after enduring all he did with his ex-wife, he was skeptical about women and their intentions; and his only weakness when I think about it was loving one (a woman) either too easily or too hard (not knowing, but thinking the feeling's mutual).

I think China though builds being sexist as a family value. There's a child limit there and all female children are disapprovals and "disgraces" to them; I assume that's why so many Americans adopt chinese girls and bring them to America.

My mom is so depended on my dad it would be impossible for her to leave in her mind :(

I had alittle girl when i was 18 shes my pride and joy but her dad left me :mad: id love to adopt a little chinese girl i think China is a pretty messed up place.

[Leprucky Cougar]

My mom is so depended on my dad it would be impossible for her to leave in her mind :(

I had alittle girl when i was 18 shes my pride and joy but her dad left me :mad: id love to adopt a little chinese girl i think China is a pretty messed up place.

How your mom is is how one of my neigbors suposed "wife" is.

Here's their story:

He used to be a heavy drinker, not as much smoker. I got to the alcholic level and he was pretty much a hell raiser.

About 30+ years or so ago, he used to date my cousin's mom. I guess they broke up because eventually my cousin's mom had her by my blood Uncle.

Any way my neighbor meets another woman during the same time he was in bad shape and they become bf and gf and wound up living together for 25+ years. They had a daughter together who is mentally disabled. No one really knows if they're married--all we know is that they've been living together for a long time and whenever we mention "anniversary" or ask about his "wedding ring" they act as if they don't hear us or always say they "forgot." A few times my parents assisted helping the guy out of alleys and gutters when he would pass out. In the 90s when I was born he started to slack down because his diabetes and ashtma got really bad and he would have frequent hospital trips. But he got better.

Eventually his daughter grew up and met some guy in high school, became her boyfriend and after high school moved in with her and her parents. 9 months later she has a son by him, whom is also mentally disabled and has speech and behavoir problems (He might be declared with mental retardation and autism; not down syndrome because he has no physical impairments) Now she and the mother stayed home ---she was very dependent on the mother--they went ever where together; Her supposed husband and son in law worked. When the son was about 8 the supposed husband had an accident and was declared disabled and told not to work (He still does though--under the table, in addition to getting disability $ from the government) When the boy reaches 10 she's pregnant with this guy's second child. No changes. Still not married...two adults living in the parents home with 2 kids and one's disabled.

The supposed husband was pretty angry at the situation and wanted them to leave. He would wittness times when the guy was abusive verbal and at times physical to his daughter and children. But the supposed wife ignored it all and said to him "if you love me, it wouldn't matter; because if they go, I'll go." So they didn't leave. She said she needed him and her and went on this tangent. Anyways they recently left this summer after 13 years of adulthood in her parents' home.

Sorry for the long story, just saying I know some people {women} are like that.

[urgeok2]

I think China though builds being sexist as a family value. There's a child limit there and all female children are disapprovals and "disgraces" to them; I assume that's why so many Americans adopt chinese girls and bring them to America.

well, actually in China it's like this .. in an effort to control an out of hand population crisis in many areas you are onlu allowed to have one child.

if you have a boy - he eventually grows up, gets married - supports his parents - especially when they are older.

they dont have the social assistance like we do for older people. It's the kids that take care of the folks.

if your only child is a girl, then you've pretty much guarenteed a horrible retirement for yourself.


i do believe that like in most places - women are treated as second class citizens - but in the situation of baby girls and adoption ... it's an unfortunate survival issue.

i have this knowledge first hand...

[Leprucky Cougar]

well, actually in China it's like this .. in an effort to control an out of hand population crisis in many areas you are onlu allowed to have one child.

if you have a boy - he eventually grows up, gets married - supports his parents - especially when they are older.

they dont have the social assistance like we do for older people. It's the kids that take care of the folks.

if your only child is a girl, then you've pretty much guarenteed a horrible retirement for yourself.


i do believe that like in most places - women are treated as second class citizens - but in the situation of baby girls and adoption ... it's an unfortunate survival issue.

i have this knowledge first hand...


Well even before they were classified as "overpopulated" I thought they were this way...now they have a legitimate excuse now...and in terms of the very last part of what you said how so? :confused:

[ChronoGrl]

well, actually in China it's like this .. in an effort to control an out of hand population crisis in many areas you are onlu allowed to have one child.

if you have a boy - he eventually grows up, gets married - supports his parents - especially when they are older.

they dont have the social assistance like we do for older people. It's the kids that take care of the folks.

if your only child is a girl, then you've pretty much guarenteed a horrible retirement for yourself.


i do believe that like in most places - women are treated as second class citizens - but in the situation of baby girls and adoption ... it's an unfortunate survival issue.

i have this knowledge first hand...

That was a great way to put the One Child Policy into perspective (seriously - not being sarcastic here).

In reality, the Western world (America in particular as we have decided to side with TAIWAN and not mainland China), demonizes China and the One Child Policy. While I don't necessarily agree with the legislation, the fact of the matter is, the country is so ridiculously large that China cannot actually enforce this policy. As soon as one wanders from the major cities an into the outskirts rural life (which is the larger population of China, by the way), you see large family with more than one child. The fact of the matter is, China does not have the funds to enforce the One Child Policy nationally; it's more of a way to extract funds from the rich couples/family of the big cities (bribing runs absolutely rampant in China). Not that I support the One Child Policy, mind you, but the legislation itself has been slanted and spun by the American media to feed into our own issues with Chinese misogyny and Civil Rights issues.

The issues that China has in terms of its female population are far more ingrained than its recently-enforced One Child Policy; as I have mentioned before in this Thread, it's not that Asia specifically targets women; it's that Asia has defines Women as being the weaker sex and as being subservient to men, not equal. It's a more complicated subject when you actually look into its origin permeation in society. It's not that China hates women; it's that for hundreds of years, women have been sub-human in comparison to their male counterparts. Considering how incredibly old this society and culture is in compared to America, it's not that easy to say, Hey, what you've been doing for HUNDREDS OF YEARS is WRONG. Think about it in that context; it'll just take them more time to change.

[Leprucky Cougar]

That was a great way to put the One Child Policy into perspective (seriously - not being sarcastic here).

In reality, the Western world (America in particular as we have decided to side with TAIWAN and not mainland China), demonizes China and the One Child Policy. While I don't necessarily agree with the legislation, the fact of the matter is, the country is so ridiculously large that China cannot actually enforce this policy. As soon as one wanders from the major cities an into the outskirts rural life (which is the larger population of China, by the way), you see large family with more than one child. The fact of the matter is, China does not have the funds to enforce the One Child Policy nationally; it's more of a way to extract funds from the rich couples/family of the big cities (bribing runs absolutely rampant in China). Not that I support the One Child Policy, mind you, but the legislation itself has been slanted and spun by the American media to feed into our own issues with Chinese misogyny and Civil Rights issues.

The issues that China has in terms of its female population are far more ingrained than its recently-enforced One Child Policy; as I have mentioned before in this Thread, it's not that Asia specifically targets women; it's that Asia has defines Women as being the weaker sex and as being subservient to men, not equal. It's a more complicated subject when you actually look into its origin permeation in society. It's not that China hates women; it's that for hundreds of years, women have been sub-human in comparison to their male counterparts. Considering how incredibly old this society and culture is in compared to America, it's not that easy to say, Hey, what you've been doing for HUNDREDS OF YEARS is WRONG. Think about it in that context; it'll just take them more time to change.

How much more time? And even if they interpret is as viewing as the weaker sex isn't that a subcategory of dislike or hate. In other words in order for us to have a favorite of something we like something a bit more; so if we don't love it as much we on the other hand dislike/hate it a little; so technically wouldn't the Chinese culture (maybe not in actuality) but in theory hate women?--because this seems to be the corelation.

[urgeok2]

and in terms of the very last part of what you said how so? :confused:



my 1st wife and i were deep in the process of adopting a baby girl from china .. just a couple of weeks away when the marriage completely fell apart.

she was thinking a baby would help - which is completely insane.
a child can put extra stress on a relationship ..a child in a relationship thats already gone to hell ?

i realized i couldnt do that to a kid ... especially one thats had a tough start already. it would have been the same thing i went through as a kid.


still really sad about it though ... always wanted a girl..

[ChronoGrl]

How much more time? And even if they interpret is as viewing as the weaker sex isn't that a subcategory of dislike or hate. In other words in order for us to have a favorite of something we like something a bit more; so if we don't love it as much we on the other hand dislike/hate it a little; so technically wouldn't the Chinese culture (maybe not in actuality) but in theory hate women?--because this seems to be the corelation.

"How much more time?" - Are you serious? You're talking about reversing hundreds of years of ingrained and perpetuated assumptions surrounding gender roles... Do you honestly think change would be easy?? Look - I'm a bleeding heart liberal, but I'm a REALIST. You can't even GOOGLE "Tienanmen Square" when inside China and expect results (How do I know that? I spent a year there with no online access to the BBC because of purposeful internet censoring) - the individual's life is so incredibly controlled by the government that it's horrifying. Do you think that the One Child Policy is honestly the biggest issue there?

You're over-simplifying.

Boys = Strong. Can do the farm work. Will physically support the family.
Girls = Baby-makers.

It's not about hating women. If men have typically been the bread-winners OR those who help and physically assist with chores on the family farm, then of COURSE they are favored. In this case, it's a matter of wanting a member of your family who will be able to inherent and run the family farm/business. Traditionally, men take these roles. Therefore, these families favor male babies. So it's not about "hate." "Hate" is far too simple a word to encompass a patriarchal system of ingrained misogyny.

But that doesn't even MATTER because, to tell you the truth, the One Child Policy isn't even enforced in most of the country. The main purpose of the legislation is to legally collect bribes from rich couples who want a big family (if you want more than one child; just pay off the government officials).

The problem with China doesn't come down specifically to the One Child Policy - the country is completely controlled and manipulated by the government (it's so incredibly surreal how close the society is to 1984 there). Women DO deserve these rights, yes, but it will not be easy and to assume that it is is incredibly short-sighted. It is SO easy for our Western culture to rail against what we believe to be the inferior foibles of the Eastern World, but we HAVE to think about it in context. Women honestly believe that their place is in the kitchen; it's the same place where our women were in the 40s and 50s - on the VERGE of revolution, but still scared and embracing the roles that have been set out for them.

It's happening. It truly is. We just have to recognize that this is a significantly older society than ours and that their ethics and mores have been ingrained for a much longer time. Just saying, "CHINA NEEDS TO CHANGE" is all well and good, but you have to understand why they are where they are before railing against their way of life. It seems slightly imperialistic and condescending. Take it into perspective. Show outrage, sure, but realistic about it.

[ChronoGrl]

my 1st wife and i were deep in the process of adopting a baby girl from china .. just a couple of weeks away when the marriage completely fell apart.

she was thinking a baby would help - which is completely insane.
a child can put extra stress on a relationship ..a child in a relationship thats already gone to hell ?

i realized i couldnt do that to a kid ... especially one thats had a tough start already. it would have been the same thing i went through as a kid.


still really sad about it though ... always wanted a girl..

Oh, Honey...

Have you and your current wife considered a similar adoption?

If my boyfriend and I get to a point where we're ready for children, we will either be foster parents and be a support for the American foster care system... OR we'll go through the process to adopt a baby girl from China. We'll see what happens over the next couple of years.

[Leprucky Cougar]

my 1st wife and i were deep in the process of adopting a baby girl from china .. just a couple of weeks away when the marriage completely fell apart.

she was thinking a baby would help - which is completely insane.
a child can put extra stress on a relationship ..a child in a relationship thats already gone to hell ?

i realized i couldnt do that to a kid ... especially one thats had a tough start already. it would have been the same thing i went through as a kid.


still really sad about it though ... always wanted a girl..


Hope things are better with your current wife. :)

[Leprucky Cougar]

Oh, Honey...

Have you and your current wife considered a similar adoption?

If my boyfriend and I get to a point where we're ready for children, we will either be foster parents and be a support for the American foster care system... OR we'll go through the process to adopt a baby girl from China. We'll see what happens over the next couple of years.

I agree Chrno....I think people who want kids should always consider adoption first--before creating a "little one" think about the millions of "little ones" already here and want a "grown-up" to be their mommies and daddies.

[urgeok2]

oh everythings cool now ..

several months after my divorce friends of mine introduced me to my current wife 10 years ago .. we've got a son ... (just turned 8)

he also just got his orange belt in tae kwon do - pretty proud of him for that - he's doing really well.

[Leprucky Cougar]

"How much more time?" - Are you serious? You're talking about reversing hundreds of years of ingrained and perpetuated assumptions surrounding gender roles... Do you honestly think change would be easy?? Look - I'm a bleeding heart liberal, but I'm a REALIST. You can't even GOOGLE "Tienanmen Square" when inside China and expect results (How do I know that? I spent a year there with no online access to the BBC because of purposeful internet censoring) - the individual's life is so incredibly controlled by the government that it's horrifying. Do you think that the One Child Policy is honestly the biggest issue there?

You're over-simplifying.

Boys = Strong. Can do the farm work. Will physically support the family.
Girls = Baby-makers.

It's not about hating women. If men have typically been the bread-winners OR those who help and physically assist with chores on the family farm, then of COURSE they are favored. In this case, it's a matter of wanting a member of your family who will be able to inherent and run the family farm/business. Traditionally, men take these roles. Therefore, these families favor male babies. So it's not about "hate." "Hate" is far too simple a word to encompass a patriarchal system of ingrained misogyny.

But that doesn't even MATTER because, to tell you the truth, the One Child Policy isn't even enforced in most of the country. The main purpose of the legislation is to legally collect bribes from rich couples who want a big family (if you want more than one child; just pay off the government officials).

The problem with China doesn't come down specifically to the One Child Policy - the country is completely controlled and manipulated by the government (it's so incredibly surreal how close the society is to 1984 there). Women DO deserve these rights, yes, but it will not be easy and to assume that it is is incredibly short-sighted. It is SO easy for our Western culture to rail against what we believe to be the inferior foibles of the Eastern World, but we HAVE to think about it in context. Women honestly believe that their place is in the kitchen; it's the same place where our women were in the 40s and 50s - on the VERGE of revolution, but still scared and embracing the roles that have been set out for them.

It's happening. It truly is. We just have to recognize that this is a significantly older society than ours and that their ethics and mores have been ingrained for a much longer time. Just saying, "CHINA NEEDS TO CHANGE" is all well and good, but you have to understand why they are where they are before railing against their way of life. It seems slightly imperialistic and condescending. Take it into perspective. Show outrage, sure, but realistic about it.

I totally get what you're saying. And it's not that I'm rushing for China's big "break" from the former upbringing. Like you said, I was displaying my "outrage." It was meant to be rhetorical question anway. But I get you. I just wanted to emphasize that it wasn't impossible.

[ChronoGrl]

I agree Chrno....I think people who want kids should always consider adoption first--before creating a "little one" think about the millions of "little ones" already here and want a "grown-up" to be their mommies and daddies.

Seriously - It honestly breaks my heart to think of the hundreds/thousands of children in this country alone who need a strong parental figure. :(

The concept of bearing my own child is amazing; I think it's INCREDIBLE that I (we, WOMEN) can actually create life - that is so incredibly... amazing.

HOWEVER... I feel that if you have the means, the will, the space, the ability, that you should give a child in need a home, you know?

Not that I think it would be easy; my grandparents took, in a foster boy once and it was really difficult for them. The System is so incredibly twisted that these poor children wind up pretty shaken and disturbed.

I have HUGE amount of respect for anyone (or any couple) who want to adopt or foster a family; it takes a LOT of work and a whole lot of Heart. I think that more people should consider these means.

[Leprucky Cougar]

oh everythings cool now ..

several months after my divorce friends of mine introduced me to my current wife 10 years ago .. we've got a son ... (just turned 8)

he also just got his orange belt in tae kwon do - pretty proud of him for that - he's doing really well.

Very cool...give 'em another 5 years and even he will be able to battle Chuck Norris.....:D

[Leprucky Cougar]

Seriously - It honestly breaks my heart to think of the hundreds/thousands of children in this country alone who need a strong parental figure. :(

The concept of bearing my own child is amazing; I think it's INCREDIBLE that I (we, WOMEN) can actually create life - that is so incredibly... amazing.

HOWEVER... I feel that if you have the means, the will, the space, the ability, that you should give a child in need a home, you know?

Not that I think it would be easy; my grandparents took, in a foster boy once and it was really difficult for them. The System is so incredibly twisted that these poor children wind up pretty shaken and disturbed.

I have HUGE amount of respect for anyone (or any couple) who want to adopt or foster a family; it takes a LOT of work and a whole lot of Heart. I think that more people should consider these means.

Yeah especially the ones whom the main reason they adopted was because they physically were infertile to do so. But the only difficult process after they've mustered the strength to do so, is when the child gets older and starts to question about their real parents. The whole: Where are they? Why didn't they want me? Did they love me? Do you really love me? Or did you just adopt me because no one else did? How do I know if you're lying to me and you kept me away from my real family? Or when they get in the teen/adolescent period and they misbehave : I don't have to listen to you, you're not my real mom and dad anyway! I hate you! :mad:

I don't know if I would be exactly prepared to answer all of those questions. It would be very difficult. :confused: