if you could get away with it

[Deposable]

You can take my comments out of context, which aren't directed at you. In any matter, and post YOUR own opinion.

For more refer to my last post about the War. And as I said before, all the facts aren't out about Katrina, but if you think George Bush did everything right... that says a lot your opinions.

Also, How does comparing George Bush to Hilter. Insult anyone from "Hitler's horror". I couldn't think of another figure like Bush to compare him too, besides that comparison has been made before. We only count american losses and not the iraqi loss since the war. Yes, The republican party does remind me of Hilters army at times.

"You think Kerry would have pulled out of Iraq by now?"

If George bush was never in power. This war... and all MY generation would be home, protecting us AT home.

[bwind22]

Originally posted by AUSTIN316426808
His assets were frozen after 9-11.

And you actually believe that we froze all of his assets, huh? :rolleyes:

We froze some, but I'd be willing to bet we barely scratched the surface simply because we have no idea where all of his assets are at. Bin Laden has plenty of cash at his disposal...

[AUSTIN316426808]

Originally posted by bwind22
And you actually believe that we froze all of his assets, huh? :rolleyes:

We froze some, but I'd be willing to bet we barely scratched the surface simply because we have no idea where all of his assets are at. Bin Laden has plenty of cash at his disposal...

Well if you have ''no idea'' then how can you be sure he's got plenty?

[bwind22]

Originally posted by Deposable
That first comment is very debatable. Most of Iraq only gets 4 hours of electric power a day at the most. Clean water is very rare. I ain't saying we aren't doing a good job, but the Iraqis citizens are more against each other then ever. Also, no one can prove we could HOLD a stable government after we leave.

You think Iraq wants a government like ours? When most of our own citizens don't trust/believe our government.

We have enough trouble defending our own constitution with people bending gun laws.

I think people have forgot we are after Al-Qaida/Bin Laden. Now our plan is FREE Iraq. Fuck Iraq, we came them guns 20 years ago to fight the Russians and now they are using them on us.

Right wing - Left wing. Both are crooks. But when I compare one evil to another. Left wing doesn't look like a bunch of Nazis

We aren't trying to make their government like ours in terms of a two party system or anything. We are giving the power to the people to decide for themselves. The only ones over there that are against us are the Bathe party and the foreign terrorists that just went there because that's where we were. I have family and friends serving in Iraq and Afghanistan right now and I can assure that, from what I've hear from someone who is standing in the middle of the desert right this second in harm's way, that the overwhelming majority or regular citizens are very greatful for what we are doing.

We aren't only after bin Laden and al-Qaida either. There is a war on terror and any nations that harbor terrorists, so it's not limited to only al-Qaida. And while I am still in complete agreement with you that our motives in Iraq are questionable, that still doesn't make al-Qaida the only group we are going after. Saddam Hussein was a terrorist, not neccesarily to us, but to his own people.

Right wing - Left wing. Both are crooks. But when I compare one evil to another. Left wing doesn't look like a bunch of Nazis

I am on the exact same page with you in regards to both parties being corrupt and crooked. I can't stand politicians. But since you are so concerned with partisonship and bin Laden, why don't you try this one on for size...

This was like 10-12 years ago. Sudan had him. They offered to hand him over to us. Bill Clinton declined the offer fearing political fallout. If any fingers are to be pointed in regards to not getting bin Laden when we should have, it's pointing directly at Slick Willy. He had him on a silver platter and he turned him down because he was too afraid of hurting his public image.

And then he goes and gets a BJ from a fat chick like that's good for his image.... :rolleyes:

We have enough trouble defending our own constitution with people bending gun laws.

This comment is totally out of left field and needs some clarification. (If you dont mind elaborating. I'm just not sure what specifically you are taling about.)

[bwind22]

Originally posted by AUSTIN316426808
Well if you have ''no idea'' then how can you be sure he's got plenty?

Well, he's a known multi-millionaire, as well as being the top terrorist operative in the world. If it was you, wouldn't you have your money spread out? I know I would. I'd have it in fifty different countries under fifty different names. I would think a Most Wanted terrorist millionaire would have the foresight to stash some money away before flying planes into the US infrastructure.

[bloodrayne]

Wow...I have MUCH to answer to :)

Originally posted by bwind22
al-Qaida and the Bathe party hate each other. Saddam and the Bathe Party don't have any ties to bin Laden or al-Qaida

And yet...Saddam had many of his own Bathe party members (mostly officials) executed....Saddam's only REAL loyalty was to HIMSELF.....Do you remember this incident?:

Saddam's daughter had a husband and children....Her husband was an official in the Bathe Party...Her husband decided that Saddam was dangerous and what he was doing was wrong (this was after he gassed over 6,000 of his own people)...He told his wife that he knew his views would get him killed, that he refused to participate in what was going on any longer, so he left the country...He begged his wife to go with him, but she was afraid of what her father would do to her and her children if she tried to leave (she was terrified of her own father...Of course, this was in a country where a father is responsible for cutting off the head of his daughter if she is believed to be 'impure')....Saddam had his sons track down the daughter's husband...The husband was told, "Father wants you to return...Our sister and your children need you...He (Saddam) has forgiven you, he would not harm you, you are family and he knows that his daughter and grandchildren need you"...There was LOTS of convincing and he (the husband) ended up falling for it....As soon as he returned to Iraq, he was beheaded by Saddam's oldest son, in front of his wife and children.....Saddam simply said, "No one betrays me"

It is difficult for us (most of us) to grasp the concept of such brutality and disloyalty.....In a country where you have no loyalty to anyone but yourself, the friend or foe lines are not so clearly drawn...They are VERY blurry, and subject to change on a whim....And so, Although the Bathe Party and Al-Qeida DID truly hate each other, 2 enemies WILL join forces against a common enemy, that is a universal fact (See Army Of Darkness...lol)...And America, particularly our way of life, is hated by almost all of the Middle East...They are raised from birth to believe that we are evil and immoral...

Originally posted by bwind22
The US hired bin Laden during Gulf 1 to try to kill Saddam for us. We even gave al-Qaida the weapons and training to do it. (Hindsight being 20/20 that probably wasn't our best move.)

AND...During Clinton's administration, it was established that Bin Laden was NOT our ally...As we had gathered information that he was responsible for attacks against us BEFORE 9-11...Saudi Arabia had him in custody, they offered him to Clinton 3 times...He was apparently too busy to be bothered with such trivial matters as stopping terrorists...He didn't really see him as a threat...

There have been MANY times that we have tried to help people, provide them weapons and training, and have them turn on us and use it against us....That is not a new occurance, and I am pretty sure that it will continue to happen....We are generally a trusting people, that may be one of our biggest weaknesses (See Mars Attacks :D)

People and situations change...Allies become enemies, and vise-versa...

Originally posted by bwind22
Like you, I also believe the WMDs exist (I think they are probably in Iran or Syria as well.) but we gave the world like 6 weeks notice before going in to Iraq so there was plenty of time for them to be relocated. I'm pretty sure the US government could have seen that coming because I did and I dont have the CIA's access to info.

Have you NO idea how arrogant we are as a country?...We broadcast our intentions all over the world before we do ANYTHING (VERY bad move...But, if we didn't do it, people would scream that they were being 'kept in the dark')....OUR media is one of the enemy's greatest weapons....We feel that we can overcome that breech, we expect them to just wait for us to implement our plans before they do anything...BUT, it's really no different than UN inspectors setting up APPOINTMENTS with them to inspect their weapons cache...Always guaranteeing them the opportunity to 'clean up' before inspectors arrive...Ridiculous

Originally posted by bwind22
al-Qaida is in Iraq now because that's where we are. They weren't there when we went in

Al-Qeida has always been spread out in the Middle East...Although they are actually a relatively small faction (or they WERE until people starting joining them enmasse to 'bring down America')...Yet, they made certain that they remained visible as much as possible in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and even parts of Pakistan...This is a way for a small faction to appear larger than they actually are, as is claiming responsibilty (taking credit) for just about ANY terrorist attack (and even disasters that end up being proven to be accidents) perpetuated anywhere in the world, especially America.....And yes, they did descend upon Iraq in droves as soon as our troops arrived

Originally posted by bwind22
there are no ties between Hussein and al-Qaida in terms of 9-11. (According to the report filed by the 9/11 Commission at least.)

I'm just going to disagree with that...I can DO that, as an American :)

Originally posted by bwind22
Saddam hasn't ever funded al-Qaida. (Why would they even need his money? Bin Laden's got plenty of cash.)

Ever wonder where he GOT all of that money?...It couldn't have all come from his rich family...He had BILLIONS of dollars...Much more than his family's combined net worth...Sadly, some of his money came from US.....But, Saddam was willing to fund ANY faction that was hellbent on the destruction of America...Believe it or not, Saddam doesn't like us very much...heh

And Saddam had ridiculous amounts of money that he diverted from the Oil For Food program that was SUPPOSED to go to his people...The UN was responsible for overseeing that program, and making sure that the funds were distributed as intended, just as they were supposed to handle the weapons inspections...And people wonder why we do NOT have much faith in working with the UN...They have proven to be dangerously ineffective, on far too many occasions

And yes...Bin Laden needed money after his assets were frozen...No, I don't believe it was possible to locate ALL of his resources, BUT we even had a stranglehold on all of the assets of his family members as well...It HAD to restrict him quite a bit...


Your turn:)

[Deposable]

Originally posted by bwind22
We aren't trying to make their government like ours in terms of a two party system or anything. We are giving the power to the people to decide for themselves. The only ones over there that are against us are the Bathe party and the foreign terrorists that just went there because that's where we were. I have family and friends serving in Iraq and Afghanistan right now and I can assure that, from what I've hear from someone who is standing in the middle of the desert right this second in harm's way, that the overwhelming majority or regular citizens are very grateful for what we are doing.

No one can prove that the government will be stable after we leave... How long do we stay ? Sure... the toll isn't bad so far. But how about five years from now ? I don't want ANY troops dying for this cause that 60% of the nation doesn't believe in. We will always be the "BAD USA". I hope this works out because I don't want our soldiers to dye in vein, while our leader jokes with his buddy at his ranch... I will never support War, unless it 100% just. Look at Canada, man... They don't have half of the problems we have at all. Free Health care.. You could say they even have more freedom, then the "land of the free"

Originally posted by bwind22
This was like 10-12 years ago. Sudan had him. They offered to hand him over to us. Bill Clinton declined the offer fearing political fallout. If any fingers are to be pointed in regards to not getting bin Laden when we should have, it's pointing directly at Slick Willy. He had him on a silver platter and he turned him down because he was too afraid of hurting his public image.

I heard about that, It just makes me sick. Its unbelievable! But I have always voted for Nader. Wasted vote, but I say "what isn't ?"

Originally posted by bwind22
This comment is totally out of left field and needs some clarification. (If you don’t mind elaborating. I'm just not sure what specifically you are taking about.)

Some crazy fucks believe they have the right to have ANY gun ever made because of the 2nd amendment. You know, like we need a AK-47 to do hunting with :rolleyes:, they say hunting is a sport but there is no challenge in hunting. Unless you use a bow and arrow. The 2nd amendment was to up hold our government. Which is impossible because the police have full control of our society.

[bloodrayne]

Originally posted by bwind22
This was like 10-12 years ago. Sudan had him. They offered to hand him over to us. Bill Clinton declined the offer fearing political fallout. If any fingers are to be pointed in regards to not getting bin Laden when we should have, it's pointing directly at Slick Willy. He had him on a silver platter and he turned him down because he was too afraid of hurting his public image.

Oh...You already knew that..lol...Oh well..I mentioned it anyway :)


As for the rest of what you said (in this same post)...I agree 100%

And the REASON that "We aren't only after bin Laden and al-Qaida either. There is a war on terror and any nations that harbor terrorists, so it's not limited to only al-Qaida."...Is that we are trying to quell the HUGE amount of hatred and bloodlust for our destruction ALL OVER the Middle East, so that they will no longer be a threat (or as much of one) to us...We went after Saddam first, because he was one of the biggest perpetrators of the brutality, oppression and tyranny that causes the type of mentality that is dangerous for us....We were just cutting off the head of the snake, before we moved on to the rest of the body...That's the best tactical move in ANY war plan...

We also have to try to change the way these people are educated, so that eventually the children won't be taught and trained to kill us, throughout their entire childhoods...

In my opinion, North Korea is the next biggest threat (if not AS big a threat as Saddam)....Syria is up there, too...

[bwind22]

Originally posted by bloodrayne
Wow...I have MUCH to answer to :)

And yet...Saddam had many of his own Bathe party members (mostly officials) executed....Saddam's only REAL loyalty was to HIMSELF.....Do you remember this incident?:

Saddam's daughter had a husband and children....Her husband was an official in the Bathe Party...Her husband decided that Saddam was dangerous and what he was doing was wrong (this was after he gassed over 6,000 of his own people)...He told his wife that he knew his views would get him killed, that he refused to participate in what was going on any longer, so he left the country...He begged his wife to go with him, but she was afraid of what her father would do to her and her children if she tried to leave (she was terrified of her own father...Of course, this was in a country where a father is responsible for cutting off the head of his daughter if she is believed to be 'impure')....Saddam had his sons track down the daughter's husband...The husband was told, "Father wants you to return...Our sister and your children need you...He (Saddam) has forgiven you, he would not harm you, you are family and he knows that his daughter and grandchildren need you"...There was LOTS of convincing and he (the husband) ended up falling for it....As soon as he returned to Iraq, he was beheaded by Saddam's oldest son, in front of his wife and children.....Saddam simply said, "No one betrays me"

Yes I remember this incident although I don't really see how it pertains to anything. What are you getting at? That Saddam is a cold motherfucker? We already know that.

It is difficult for us (most of us) to grasp the concept of such brutality and disloyalty.....In a country where you have no loyalty to anyone but yourself, the friend or foe lines are not so clearly drawn...They are VERY blurry, and subject to change on a whim....And so, Although the Bathe Party and Al-Qeida DID truly hate each other, 2 enemies WILL join forces against a common enemy, that is a universal fact (See Army Of Darkness...lol)...And America, particularly our way of life, is hated by almost all of the Middle East...They are raised from birth to believe that we are evil and immoral...

This is really just your own speculation. There has never been anything proving these two are working together.

AND...During Clinton's administration, it was established that Bin Laden was NOT our ally...As we had gathered information that he was responsible for attacks against us BEFORE 9-11...Saudi Arabia had him in custody, they offered him to Clinton 3 times...He was apparently too busy to be bothered with such trivial matters as stopping terrorists...He didn't really see him as a threat...

I'm pretty sure it was Sudan (Fearing a US attack) that offered him to us, but you're right about Slick Willy being the one to drop the ball on that.

There have been MANY times that we have tried to help people, provide them weapons and training, and have them turn on us and use it against us....That is not a new occurance, and I am pretty sure that it will continue to happen....We are generally a trusting people, that may be one of our biggest weaknesses (See Mars Attacks :D)

Yep. Our government is stupid.

People and situations change...Allies become enemies, and vise-versa...

Deja vu. Didn't you basically already say that in the 2nd paragraph?

Have you NO idea how arrogant we are as a country?...We broadcast our intentions all over the world before we do ANYTHING (VERY bad move...But, if we didn't do it, people would scream that they were being 'kept in the dark')....OUR media is one of the enemy's greatest weapons....We feel that we can overcome that breech, we expect them to just wait for us to implement our plans before they do anything...BUT, it's really no different than UN inspectors setting up APPOINTMENTS with them to inspect their weapons cache...Always guaranteeing them the opportunity to 'clean up' before inspectors arrive...Ridiculous

The American media is retarded. No arguement here on that one. Anyone needing proof can just look up the Fox news archives of Geraldo Rivera drawing a fucking map in the sand of where the military plattoon he was traveling with was stationed during the opening days of the Iraq war. What a fuckin' dumbass...

Al-Qeida has always been spread out in the Middle East...Although they are actually a relatively small faction (or they WERE until people starting joining them enmasse to 'bring down America')...Yet, they made certain that they remained visible as much as possible in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and even parts of Pakistan...This is a way for a small faction to appear larger than they actually are, as is claiming responsibilty (taking credit) for just about ANY terrorist attack (and even disasters that end up being proven to be accidents) perpetuated anywhere in the world, especially America.....And yes, they did descend upon Iraq in droves as soon as our troops arrived

Actually, bin Laden's war was against Saudi Arabia for a long, long time. (Because they allowed western influence in a Muslim country.) Until recently, al-Qaida operated primarily out of Afghanistan and the border regions of Pakistan, and before that Sudan. I have never seen, heard, or been shown anything saying that al-Qaida was ni Iraq or Iran before we went to Iraq.

I'm just going to disagree with that...I can DO that, as an American :)

Yeah you can do that, but I don't see any reason that you would know better than the 9/11 Commission.

Ever wonder where he GOT all of that money?...It couldn't have all come from his rich family...He had BILLIONS of dollars...Much more than his family's combined net worth...Sadly, some of his money came from US.....But, Saddam was willing to fund ANY faction that was hellbent on the destruction of America...Believe it or not, Saddam doesn't like us very much...heh

In addition to his familial wealth, he owned several major legit corporations during his time in Sudan. It was a very poor country and he actually did a TON for their infrastructure. That's where most of his money came from.

And Saddam had ridiculous amounts of money that he diverted from the Oil For Food program that was SUPPOSED to go to his people...The UN was responsible for overseeing that program, and making sure that the funds were distributed as intended, just as they were supposed to handle the weapons inspections...And people wonder why we do NOT have much faith in working with the UN...They have proven to be dangerously ineffective, on far too many occasions

Kofi Annan is the biggest crook of any politicans. The UN is a joke. Oil for Food was a fucking fiasco. But just because Saddam didn't distribute the money like he should have, doesn't mean he gave it to bin Laden. You are jumping to conclusions without backing them up with anything.

And yes...Bin Laden needed money after his assets were frozen...No, I don't believe it was possible to locate ALL of his resources, BUT we even had a stranglehold on all of the assets of his family members as well...It HAD to restrict him quite a bit...

It probably restriced him some, but we didn't get it all. To think we commandeered all of his cash would be to underestimate his intelligence, which would be just plain naive. bin Laden is not a stupid man by any stretch of the imagination. If you had declared a holy war on the US, don't you think he'd have the foresight to stick most of his money out of our reach? The US can't freeze Swiss bank accounts. The US didn't go look in all the safes in Afghanistan. The US may have froze some of his families cash, but what about all the money he has resting with operatives that the US isn't even aware of? The US freezing his cash may have dented his bankroll, but it sure didn't cripple it.

Your turn:)

Okay, back at ya.

History channel is running a biography on bin Laden this month. I just watched it a couple days ago and it's really good, but that's where alot of my info came from.

I basically think we are seeing eye to eye on pretty much everything except the al-Qaida/Iraq connection.

[bwind22]

Originally posted by bloodrayne
Oh...You already knew that..lol...Oh well..I mentioned it anyway :)


As for the rest of what you said (in this same post)...I agree 100%

And the REASON that "We aren't only after bin Laden and al-Qaida either. There is a war on terror and any nations that harbor terrorists, so it's not limited to only al-Qaida."...Is that we are trying to quell the HUGE amount of hatred and bloodlust for our destruction ALL OVER the Middle East, so that they will no longer be a threat (or as much of one) to us...We went after Saddam first, because he was one of the biggest perpetrators of the brutality, oppression and tyranny that causes the type of mentality that is dangerous for us....We were just cutting off the head of the snake, before we moved on to the rest of the body...That's the best tactical move in ANY war plan...

We also have to try to change the way these people are educated, so that eventually the children won't be taught and trained to kill us, throughout their entire childhoods...

In my opinion, North Korea is the next biggest threat (if not AS big a threat as Saddam)....Syria is up there, too...

North Korea is a WAY bigger threat than Iraq. They actually have nuclear weapons now and their leader is insane enough to use them without regard to the reprecussions! (Kinda like Castro during the Cuban Missile Crisis. He wanted to just launch them too, but luckily for the entire world, the Russian government had enough common sense to realize that would have been WW3.