Hell

[ntillemans]

I was raised Catholic. I revisit this notion of Heaven and Hell constantly in my life. I neither believe nor disbelieve in it. It is obvious to me that there are limitations to human perception. These limitations serve us well in our day to day survival. Yet, it is a big leap of faith to accept that we have it all figured out somehow and have a real grasp on eternity--either by taking the intuitive leaps that religion requires or following the hyper-focused, plodding methodology of empiricism. I am agnostic. I try to keep an open mind. And I have reason to keep an open mind.

I know that religion has been used in all manner of devious ways; but that does not mean that there is no substance to its premise. Certainly, all these notions about eternal damnation suggest a Heaven that no one really wants to live in...to be a sycophant to a God ready to cause such pain and suffering to empiricists (who spend their lives seeking the Truth). But maybe that's all wrong and part of some deception. I can't pretend to know.

I think that a lot of good comes from the morality religion teaches...but only when it is actively questioned and kept alive that way. A lot of bad comes from blindly following religion. But it is not inherently corrupt.

I'm not here to convince anyone to believe one thing or another. But I've had experiences to make me think twice. Seven or eight years ago, a friend of mine invited me to a CBM (Christian Businessmen) meeting. I ate their food and sat through the meeting. At the end of the meeting, they asked me to fill something out that asked me whether or not I had chosen to accept Jesus as my personal savior. I checked the "NO" box. Later that day, I turned on the "Oldies Station" and Mike Oldfield's "Tubular Bells" was playing and the next track was Carol King's "It's Too Late". Since when do they play Tubular Bells on the Oldies Station? But who knows?

Some people would accept that experience I had as proof of a God. I don't know how I would know whether it was a Benevolent Deity or a Malevolent one or just some bizarre coincidence, besides indoctrination. I keep an open mind and I will teach my son to do the same.

Thank you all for posting your thoughts about this subject. It could be so terribly important to know the Truth. But how could we be expected to know it?

[Sculpt]

Originally Posted by ntillemans

I was raised Catholic. I revisit this notion of Heaven and Hell constantly in my life. I neither believe nor disbelieve in it. It is obvious to me that there are limitations to human perception. These limitations serve us well in our day to day survival. Yet, it is a big leap of faith to accept that we have it all figured out somehow and have a real grasp on eternity--either by taking the intuitive leaps that religion requires or following the hyper-focused, plodding methodology of empiricism. I am agnostic. I try to keep an open mind. And I have reason to keep an open mind.

I know that religion has been used in all manner of devious ways; but that does not mean that there is no substance to its premise. Certainly, all these notions about eternal damnation suggest a Heaven that no one really wants to live in...to be a sycophant to a God ready to cause such pain and suffering to empiricists (who spend their lives seeking the Truth). But maybe that's all wrong and part of some deception. I can't pretend to know.

I think that a lot of good comes from the morality religion teaches...but only when it is actively questioned and kept alive that way. A lot of bad comes from blindly following religion. But it is not inherently corrupt.

I'm not here to convince anyone to believe one thing or another. But I've had experiences to make me think twice. Seven or eight years ago, a friend of mine invited me to a CBM (Christian Businessmen) meeting. I ate their food and sat through the meeting. At the end of the meeting, they asked me to fill something out that asked me whether or not I had chosen to accept Jesus as my personal savior. I checked the "NO" box. Later that day, I turned on the "Oldies Station" and Mike Oldfield's "Tubular Bells" was playing and the next track was Carol King's "It's Too Late". Since when do they play Tubular Bells on the Oldies Station? But who knows?

Some people would accept that experience I had as proof of a God. I don't know how I would know whether it was a Benevolent Deity or a Malevolent one or just some bizarre coincidence, besides indoctrination. I keep an open mind and I will teach my son to do the same.

Thank you all for posting your thoughts about this subject. It could be so terribly important to know the Truth. But how could we be expected to know it?

Hey Ntill, I was like, what's Tubular Bells? Just listened to it on youtube. It's the theme for the Exorcist. At first the song kind of unnerved me, but I just kicked back and listened with me headphones. It's actually not a scary song at all, it's really rather sweet. Amazing how association taints, and clear concentration enlightens, various things.

I certainly can't tell you if your experiences are from malevolent being, God or purely happenstance. I wouldn't want to point you the wrong direction.

I share your search for Truth. So many things can be scrutinized and broken down till nothing is certain or truth. But vacuums get filled, and we have to examine what we're being filled with lest we be filled with falsehood, delusion and enmity.

How can we expect to know truth is a good question. I think we exist, and were created (if you will) a certain way, with an inate understanding of Natural Law (right/wrong) that exists, to the bizarre extent that we actually know we ought to behave a certain way, but that we usually don't act that way. There is an internal recognition, and also one that's wrong. That seems like a good truth to start with.

What comes to my mind right now is something Jesus/Yeshua said, "My sheep recognize my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. So no one can take them from me. The Father and I are one." Being called sheep by a man sounds a lot like the unnerving intro to Tubular Bells. But if it wasn't said by someone who wasn't merely a man, than that context changes an awful lot.

Reading your post, I think the content and perfectly clear logic you're looking to investigate is the C.S. Lewis book called Mere Christianity. You can read online for free, check it out from your library, I see there's even a 35 part audio book on youtube. You'll know what I mean if you start reading it. (or read 'More Than a Carpenter' if you're looking for something more succinct. PS- It's not about Karen Carpenter.)

[ntillemans]

Originally Posted by Sculpt

Hey Ntill, I was like, what's Tubular Bells? Just listened to it on youtube. It's the theme for the Exorcist. At first the song kind of unnerved me, but I just kicked back and listened with me headphones. It's actually not a scary song at all, it's really rather sweet. Amazing how association taints, and clear concentration enlightens, various things.

I certainly can't tell you if your experiences are from malevolent being, God or purely happenstance. I wouldn't want to point you the wrong direction.

I share your search for Truth. So many things can be scrutinized and broken down till nothing is certain or truth. But vacuums get filled, and we have to examine what we're being filled with lest we be filled with falsehood, delusion and enmity.

How can we expect to know truth is a good question. I think we exist, and were created (if you will) a certain way, with an inate understanding of Natural Law (right/wrong) that exists, to the bizarre extent that we actually know we ought to behave a certain way, but that we usually don't act that way. There is an internal recognition, and also one that's wrong. That seems like a good truth to start with.

What comes to my mind right now is something Jesus/Yeshua said, "My sheep recognize my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. So no one can take them from me. The Father and I are one." Being called sheep by a man sounds a lot like the unnerving intro to Tubular Bells. But if it wasn't said by someone who wasn't merely a man, than that context changes an awful lot.

Reading your post, I think the content and perfectly clear logic you're looking to investigate is the C.S. Lewis book called Mere Christianity. You can read online for free, check it out from your library, I see there's even a 35 part audio book on youtube. You'll know what I mean if you start reading it. (or read 'More Than a Carpenter' if you're looking for something more succinct. PS- It's not about Karen Carpenter.)

"PS- It's not about Karen Carpenter."

Too bad. That would have been a great (auto?) biography.

[horrorfangirl66]

Originally Posted by ntillemans

I was raised Catholic. I revisit this notion of Heaven and Hell constantly in my life. I neither believe nor disbelieve in it. It is obvious to me that there are limitations to human perception. These limitations serve us well in our day to day survival. Yet, it is a big leap of faith to accept that we have it all figured out somehow and have a real grasp on eternity--either by taking the intuitive leaps that religion requires or following the hyper-focused, plodding methodology of empiricism. I am agnostic. I try to keep an open mind. And I have reason to keep an open mind.

I know that religion has been used in all manner of devious ways; but that does not mean that there is no substance to its premise. Certainly, all these notions about eternal damnation suggest a Heaven that no one really wants to live in...to be a sycophant to a God ready to cause such pain and suffering to empiricists (who spend their lives seeking the Truth). But maybe that's all wrong and part of some deception. I can't pretend to know.

I think that a lot of good comes from the morality religion teaches...but only when it is actively questioned and kept alive that way. A lot of bad comes from blindly following religion. But it is not inherently corrupt.

I'm not here to convince anyone to believe one thing or another. But I've had experiences to make me think twice. Seven or eight years ago, a friend of mine invited me to a CBM (Christian Businessmen) meeting. I ate their food and sat through the meeting. At the end of the meeting, they asked me to fill something out that asked me whether or not I had chosen to accept Jesus as my personal savior. I checked the "NO" box. Later that day, I turned on the "Oldies Station" and Mike Oldfield's "Tubular Bells" was playing and the next track was Carol King's "It's Too Late". Since when do they play Tubular Bells on the Oldies Station? But who knows?

Some people would accept that experience I had as proof of a God. I don't know how I would know whether it was a Benevolent Deity or a Malevolent one or just some bizarre coincidence, besides indoctrination. I keep an open mind and I will teach my son to do the same.

Thank you all for posting your thoughts about this subject. It could be so terribly important to know the Truth. But how could we be expected to know it?

I am on point with you in this more agnostic seeker approach to religion. I was raised Christian. My dad is non-religious and my mom is Christian. Although they were very much more interested in passing down the morals to me and then allowing me to formulate my own beliefs from there. I will want that for my children. I think the world is too vast and unknown to make up my mind about it. I have have odd occurrences such and you and I think that is what makes the world and the unknown so much more interesting. I think the reason we love horror is because it brings the supernatural and all the things we don't understand to life for us. It shocks us and makes us wonder even more. Although some films you never want to be real or actually exist in the unknown. Haha.

But I love this quote by Marus Aurelius to sum up how I view religion and the afterlife :

“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”

[ntillemans]

Originally Posted by horrorfangirl66

I am on point with you in this more agnostic seeker approach to religion. I was raised Christian. My dad is non-religious and my mom is Christian. Although they were very much more interested in passing down the morals to me and then allowing me to formulate my own beliefs from there. I will want that for my children. I think the world is too vast and unknown to make up my mind about it. I have have odd occurrences such and you and I think that is what makes the world and the unknown so much more interesting. I think the reason we love horror is because it brings the supernatural and all the things we don't understand to life for us. It shocks us and makes us wonder even more. Although some films you never want to be real or actually exist in the unknown. Haha.

But I love this quote by Marus Aurelius to sum up how I view religion and the afterlife :

“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”

I've always found kindred spirits in people who are fans of horror. And I think, as you stated, that we wrestle with the unknown. That is why we love horror. Your quote captures my sentiments precisely. I don't think I could put it any better than that.

[newb]

Originally Posted by ntillemans

I was raised Catholic. I revisit this notion of Heaven and Hell constantly in my life. I neither believe nor disbelieve in it. It is obvious to me that there are limitations to human perception. These limitations serve us well in our day to day survival. Yet, it is a big leap of faith to accept that we have it all figured out somehow and have a real grasp on eternity--either by taking the intuitive leaps that religion requires or following the hyper-focused, plodding methodology of empiricism. I am agnostic. I try to keep an open mind. And I have reason to keep an open mind.

I know that religion has been used in all manner of devious ways; but that does not mean that there is no substance to its premise. Certainly, all these notions about eternal damnation suggest a Heaven that no one really wants to live in...to be a sycophant to a God ready to cause such pain and suffering to empiricists (who spend their lives seeking the Truth). But maybe that's all wrong and part of some deception. I can't pretend to know.

I think that a lot of good comes from the morality religion teaches...but only when it is actively questioned and kept alive that way. A lot of bad comes from blindly following religion. But it is not inherently corrupt.

I'm not here to convince anyone to believe one thing or another. But I've had experiences to make me think twice. Seven or eight years ago, a friend of mine invited me to a CBM (Christian Businessmen) meeting. I ate their food and sat through the meeting. At the end of the meeting, they asked me to fill something out that asked me whether or not I had chosen to accept Jesus as my personal savior. I checked the "NO" box. Later that day, I turned on the "Oldies Station" and Mike Oldfield's "Tubular Bells" was playing and the next track was Carol King's "It's Too Late". Since when do they play Tubular Bells on the Oldies Station? But who knows?

Some people would accept that experience I had as proof of a God. I don't know how I would know whether it was a Benevolent Deity or a Malevolent one or just some bizarre coincidence, besides indoctrination. I keep an open mind and I will teach my son to do the same.

Thank you all for posting your thoughts about this subject. It could be so terribly important to know the Truth. But how could we be expected to know it?

well said......and I'm sure it's not the first time a deity used Carol King as a recruiting tool. ;)

[ntillemans]

Originally Posted by newb

well said......and I'm sure it's not the first time a deity used Carol King as a recruiting tool. ;)

Thanks for paying me the compliment. You can't possibly be wrong about the whole recruiting tool business. Who can forget her many other great recruiting songs. This one, for instance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOyvYnkdEcc