Representation in Culture: Women

[Kandarian Demon]

Originally Posted by Straker

It's not an either or situation though, you can respect authority, regardless of gender, without being a blind follower...

I definitely agree with that! There is a big difference between respecting an authority that deserves the respect, and following someone's every word without question.

[Sculpt]

Originally Posted by Straker

It's not an either or situation though, you can respect authority, regardless of gender, without being a blind follower...

Of course. I do respect authority, by choice. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it's hard. I assume that's true for everyone. There's some people you would find it easy to take commands from, and others who you'd find it more difficult. There may be good reasons or no good reasons for it, but regardless, we choose to do the right thing. That's all I'm saying.

[Straker]

Originally Posted by Sculpt

Of course. I do respect authority, by choice. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it's hard. I assume that's true for everyone. There's some people you would find it easy to take commands from, and others who you'd find it more difficult. There may be good reasons or no good reasons for it, but regardless, we choose to do the right thing. That's all I'm saying.

I totally understand what you said, I just think its sad you are uncomfortable with a woman having a position of authority over you.

[ferretchucker]

I think it's interesting that we keep going back to this notion of the "effeminate man" or "tomboy". Obviously, these ARE frames of reference that exist within our current discourses on gender.

What I was trying to get at in my original post was that rather than thinking of qualities as "masculine" or "feminine" we need to deconstruct BOTH genders and build up again afresh, free from the anchors with which we define character attributes. Obviously this kind of sociological revolution cannot happen overnight. But as I said, I think part of the problem is the emphasis on discussing and criticising portrayals of men and women as men and women, rather than just as people.

[Sculpt]

Originally Posted by Straker

I totally understand what you said, I just think its sad you are uncomfortable with a woman having a position of authority over you.

Ah, I got ya now. I wasn't sure what you meant by 'I think it's sad'. In the US, it's currently often used as a condemnation phrase; like, "I think it's sad that you have to get drunk every night.", where it doesn't mean sympathy or empathy with the person or situation, rather it means you need to correct your immorality.

[Sculpt]

Originally Posted by ferretchucker

I think it's interesting that we keep going back to this notion of the "effeminate man" or "tomboy". Obviously, these ARE frames of reference that exist within our current discourses on gender.

What I was trying to get at in my original post was that rather than thinking of qualities as "masculine" or "feminine" we need to deconstruct BOTH genders and build up again afresh, free from the anchors with which we define character attributes. Obviously this kind of sociological revolution cannot happen overnight. But as I said, I think part of the problem is the emphasis on discussing and criticising portrayals of men and women as men and women, rather than just as people.

Yes, we should not attach a vast array of moral character qualities to people based on gender, gender traits, gender identity, ethnicity, age, etc. I certainly don't want to assume someone is going to rob, lie, etc, based on those attributes. In a free speech society, people are going to be free to choose to bend gender appearance and behavior. And most individuals have a genetic and/or semi-permanent gender traits that we associate with effeminate male or tomboy. Those characteristics do not equate to sexual preference. In both cases, nobody should be harassed, harmed or treated unfairly. I hope none of that sounds overly proverbial.

That being said, I'm not sure what you mean by we need to "deconstruct BOTH genders and build up again afresh".

[metternich1815]

I am a man, but I would actually say I am a strong feminist, but not radical. I think the radicals go over board. In my opinion, the horror genre is the best in regards to women. Especially 70s up. I find it funny that some critics in the 80s actually said slashers was a reaction against feminism because, in my opinion, the opposite is true.

[ferretchucker]

Originally Posted by Sculpt

That being said, I'm not sure what you mean by we need to "deconstruct BOTH genders and build up again afresh".

As in, we're often so preoccupied with females and what constitutes femininity that we neglect considering men and masculinity. As a result, the stereotypes will always continue to prevail because we'll maintain the "standard masculine male" by which others are compared, thus holding in THEIR stereotypes. Basic structuralism - defining but what one is not.

In other news, Lily Allen's new song delightfully deals with this topic. Especially like the Robin Thicke line.

[Kandarian Demon]

Originally Posted by ferretchucker

As in, we're often so preoccupied with females and what constitutes femininity that we neglect considering men and masculinity. As a result, the stereotypes will always continue to prevail because we'll maintain the "standard masculine male" by which others are compared, thus holding in THEIR stereotypes.

Very well said...

And another thing I would like to see is an equality movement that isn't either feminism or the mens rights movement. Both camps are fighting their battles with the attitude that "it's the other genders fault" - I don't think that will do anyone any good.

[adamhenderson]

Yes! This is the sort of thing I signed up for! I love engaging in philosophical discussion. Sorry I couldn't post sooner, but I've been busy with work and the like.

Anyway, I think you all raise some interesting points regarding gender issues in society and media. I guess the biggest point I would raise right now is the lack of true female voices in cinema/ fiction (especially in the horror genre).

Discussions of representations of women in cinema are fraught with peril, and slasher films are a prime example. Slashers may be seen by some people as 'reaction[s] against feminism' (as metternich pointed out), but others might claim that they are indeed pro-feminist (its usually always a woman who survives and men who die by the end credits, as Kandarian Demon pointed out). Both opinions hinge on the crucial 'p' word: perspective. Both perspectives have significant evidence to support them.

And this brings me back to my earlier point: The dominant horror film makers are men. This may be wishful thinking (due to inherent sexism within society), but I think there need to be more female horror film-makers/ novelists. Who can better give a female perspective than females themselves?

Does anyone know of any female horror writers that are popular (I can think of only Anne Rice)?