What's so great about Tenebre?

[Angra]

Originally Posted by ChronoGrl

So while we're on the topic of Argento, I just recently watched Tenebre (I was inspired by V's Top 100 Sub-Genre Horror Movies List).



My first impression: What's so great, wonderful, and iconic about Tenebre?

• I found it to be incredibly derivitive of any and all slashers that have come before (Halloween, Black Christmas, Psycho).
• The music was overpowering to the point of being obtrusive yet funny, comic, and parody, as opposed to dramatic or moody.
• The writing and acting were terrible.
• The sound - Again, I felt as though I was watching a poorly-dubbed foreign film.
• Contrived - The ending, as well as some of the plot devices (the reveal of the killer as well as the girl being conveniently driven into the killer's domain) seemed incredibly incongruous, abstract, random, and out of context; but not in a good way.

So I know that there are some Argento fans out there and I know that there are fans specifically of Tenebre (hence why and how it made it into V's top 100 list). My question is, Why? What am I missing? How and why is this movie an important volume in horror movie history?

What do you like about this film, personally? And, in a more acedemic sense, what makes this movie iconic?

Haven't seen it, but i'm sure i agree with you.

Never seen a good Argento movie.

[Disease]

Originally Posted by Angra

Haven't seen it, but i'm sure i agree with you.

Never seen a good Argento movie.

Have you ever seen a good movie? :D

[joshaube]

I've only see a few Gaillo films. I never really understood their appeal story-wise.

I've always seen them as something you experience, like a Lynch film, rather then understand.

In fact,... in my experience, most of the plots are very... confusing. As if little effort was put into them. Not a fan of all of those reviews claiming that such-and-such a Gaillo is the most suspenseful movie ever made (surpassing Hitchcock, one even said...)

I think of Gaillo as a picture book rather then a novel. It's nice to look at, and to feel, but there's not any surface-subject.

Visually, they are stunning. Great use of contrast. Breath-taking set and costume design. The dubbed language tracks add a certain flair. I admit I am a fan of the soundtrack.

Gaillo is arthouse. And yes, it is often over-rated. Suspiria, in my opinion, was completely ruined due to it's incredible hype.

[Disease]

hype, I guess that depends on when you saw it, I hadn't heard any hype when I watched it...

[joshaube]

I watched it about two weeks ago.

[ChronoGrl]

Originally Posted by Bub the Zombie

Giallo is singular, Gialli is plural. It's Gialli cinema.

Secondly, Tenebre is by far the best work of Argento. I dare say its a notch above Suspiria, and makes a strong claim of being the best giallo ever made. It's a perfect little mystery with its healthy dose of colorful deaths and and vivid, starkly created imagery, accentuated by a very odd yet fascinating background score by Claudio Simonetti.

Plotwise, it is the most coherent Argento till date. It doesn't leave much stuff to the imagination ala Suspiria or Inferno, and neither does it border upon the supernatural overtures of the two. The flashback sequences add the surreal imagery for which Argento films are famous for, and several shots set in bright daylight and clammy, yet brightly-lighted rooms show that Argento does not forget the essence of Tenebre, which means "darkness" in Latin.

Goblin provides a deep, resonating, carnival-esque heavily dependent on synthesiser score to Tenebre, and they compliment each murder sequence perfectly. And each murder has vividly supportive FX done by Corridori, which makes them seem grotesquely real and unflinchingly brutal.

The only real flaw with Tenebre is the dubbing, especially of Daria Nicolodi. The Italian version must be a real rocker, with Nicolodi in all her resplendent form, but for the English-speaking world, it's a damper. Argento usually does not go for long characterisation, and that is amply evident by plenty of cameos here.

To appreciate a giallo, you must first understand it's style. Gialli are never meant to have much of a substance, because they are examples of stylish and chic film-making. Argento's giallos, especially the early ones like L' Uccello dalle piume di cristallo (The Bird With The Crystal Plumage), Il gatto a nove code (Cat O'Nine Tails), Profondo rosso (Deep Red), Suspiria, Inferno, all contain the charismatic Argento - vividly bright imagery and extremely bizarre soundtracks marking each murder sequence to it's entirety and adding generous doses of surrealism to the experience.

To admire Argento and his work, you have to be empathetic.

Hey, Bub, thanks for the analysis. :) It's honestly refreshing to see a discussion open up around here (and the correction on my poor Italian made me snicker - that's what I get for being snarky).

I'm not sure what you mean or why one would have to be "empathetic" per se, but I'm starting to understand now that people appreciate Tenebre as well as Argento's films as being part of a different aesthetic (a complete genre piece).

It's interesting, especially, to see the cult following around Goblins, the synthesizer influence because I honestly thought that the music took away from the movie more than it added (so I think that this has to be a clear divide between Argento fans and criticizers).

I see that there are definite underlying themes of the abstract and bizarre, but I felt as though those appearances made a lot more sense in Suspira than they did in Tenebre (taking into account the driving force of "evil" or "death" in Suspira was super natural vs. the more corporeal influence of the reveal in Tenebre). I thought that the flashback scenese were incredibly strong, beautiful, and compelling (definitely a nod to Felini I thought), BUT they made the movie feel uneven and, quite frankly, made me feel wanting.

I thought that there were definitely some great panning shots (of the cutaway apartment especially), but I think that the music itself really got to me. Again, this might just be a sense of a different kind of aesthetic.

Originally Posted by Roderick Usher

Tenebre is my favorite Argento film.

I love it for the music, the style, the fashions, the camera moves the comedy (John Saxon's character is really funny) and the bad dubbing.

Gialli and Spaghetti Westerns are inextricably linked. Most directors who worked in one genre also worked in the other and that's where the "bad dubbing" bit comes in. The casts in these films are from USA, Italy, Germany, Spain, France, etc and each actor would, typically, speak in their own language. So, typically no live sound is recorded and every line of dialog is dubbed in post...sometimes well, sometimes poorly.

As for the "derivative nature" this was Argento revising the style he invented back before Halloween, Black Christmas, ect (John Carpenter is an Argento fan who has told me that Suspiria had an incredible impact on him).

So, for me, it's all about style. The starkness of the set. The flashy/trashy costume design. The amazingly vivid spray of red across a blank white wall. The use of sculpture and architecture to create mood and subtext and the pure Italian-ness of it all.

Yeah, there isn't a lot of logic, but I find the atmosphere compelling and that dog chase sequence is scary as shit. It was one of he primary influences on our screenplay GIALLO...coming soon to a theater near you!!

John Saxton - LOVED his character (I just love Saxton in general), but I thought that the levity was really out of place and, like the flashbacks, uneven.

"Derivative nature" - I'm not that familiar with Argento's filmography. What films would Halloween and Black Christmas derived their direction and inspiration from? Just curious because I'm always on the lookout for good slashers, and I'd like to see more influence on that particular sub-genre. :) As I mentioned before, I feel as though Tenebre is definitely borrowing from Hitchcock as well, Psycho, as mentioned, and the more I think about it, Rear Window too. I like the concept of Argento "revisioning" the genre with Tenebre, but I don't really feel as though he's done anything particularly new or innovative. Sure, one can argue that all horror (or any movie genre) is derivative, but one can also argue that some derevations are better than others. I think that Halloween and Black Chrismas were more successful horror films than Tenebre was. I honestly felt as though the murder scenes in Tenebre were totally unconvincing and that Argento showed a startling lack of ingenuity.

"Style" - Then I wonder, perhaps, if it's a matter of style over substance in Argento's case? I thought that Suspira was gorgeous, had incredible death scenes and memorable visuals... But I don't get the same from Tenebre. I feel as though, artistically, it is a weaker film.

I AM, however, still excited about GIALLO. And hope that it'll hit at least the Boston independent film theaters.

Originally Posted by joshaube

I've only see a few Gaillo films. I never really understood their appeal story-wise.

I've always seen them as something you experience, like a Lynch film, rather then understand.

Yeah, I get that. I guess the difference is that I LOVE Lynch and embrace him and the Lynch experience that he gives... But it's not for everyone.

With Lynch, at least, there is some cohesiveness and it definitely sets mood incredibly well. You watch something like Eraserhead, which is visually strong and powerful and you are overwhelmed by mood. But I didn't think that Tenebre was that encompassing.


I guess what threw me through a loop was the categorization of Tenebre as a "Slasher" film in V's top 100 sub-genre list. I think that, with it being categorizes as "Slasher" I went in with certain expectations. I think that it should be categorized more as "Giallo" (Gialli) than as "Slasher." With the category of "Slasher," I have certain connotations and expectations of "suspense" as well as blood and body count. With Tenebre, there is very little suspense, with some blood and body count. I'm not sure if I'd categorize Tenebre as "Slasher" at all. Thoughts?

Originally Posted by Angra

Haven't seen it, but i'm sure i agree with you.

Never seen a good Argento movie.

And I thought I was the only one who was underwhelmed...

I haven't given up, though. I definitely agree with you, Jenna, and you all that there are more to see (Jenna - Was it you who had emailed me a whole list of Italian Horror recommendations? Unfortunately my PM box ate them all. :().

[fortunato]

Originally Posted by ChronoGrl

I guess what threw me through a loop was the categorization of Tenebre as a "Slasher" film in V's top 100 sub-genre list. I think that, with it being categorizes as "Slasher" I went in with certain expectations. I think that it should be categorized more as "Giallo" (Gialli) than as "Slasher." With the category of "Slasher," I have certain connotations and expectations of "suspense" as well as blood and body count. With Tenebre, there is very little suspense, with some blood and body count. I'm not sure if I'd categorize Tenebre as "Slasher" at all. Thoughts?

well, actually, the problem with that is that in the HDC sub-genre list "giallo" and "slasher" were in the same category (only listed under "slasher"). i actually had a problem with this and asked ___v___ where i should include any gialli that i wanted to nominate. they ended up going in the "slasher" category, so i can see why this was confusing to you. gialli and slashers definitely have a close relationship but, in the big picture, are very far apart. they may both include sensational murders and beautiful women, but giallo films tend to focus on imagery and composition where slashers focus on characters and story (obviously there is cross-over between these, but i just mean in a general sense). you definitely can't watch a giallo expecting a slasher. what would happen is what has happened to you with tenebre. i really think that if you went into it knowing what to expect you would have liked it more. you may want to give it another chance at some point, perhaps after watching some more of argento's work.

that's more or less a long-winded way of saying "tenebre is definitely not a slasher film."

hope that sheds at least a little light on the subject for you.

[_____V_____]

Originally Posted by fortunato

well, actually, the problem with that is that in the HDC sub-genre list "giallo" and "slasher" were in the same category (only listed under "slasher"). i actually had a problem with this and asked ___v___ where i should include any gialli that i wanted to nominate. they ended up going in the "slasher" category, so i can see why this was confusing to you. gialli and slashers definitely have a close relationship but, in the big picture, are very far apart. they may both include sensational murders and beautiful women, but giallo films tend to focus on imagery and composition where slashers focus on characters and story (obviously there is cross-over between these, but i just mean in a general sense). you definitely can't watch a giallo expecting a slasher. what would happen is what has happened to you with tenebre. i really think that if you went into it knowing what to expect you would have liked it more. you may want to give it another chance at some point, perhaps after watching some more of argento's work.

that's more or less a long-winded way of saying "tenebre is definitely not a slasher film."

hope that sheds at least a little light on the subject for you.

Excellent point. And taken, too.:)

To spare future horror fans from confusion, I will make a little amendment to that Slasher sub-genre.

As for this discussion, first of all, I think Tenebre is a fine piece of art from the Argento stable. He made it after the earlier Argento giallos - Deep Red, Suspiria, Inferno - became trendsetters. Now, in regards to appreciating giallo movies (or gialli), you have to think of them as pieces of art, sort of like a painting. Josh summed it up nicely..

I think of Gaillo as a picture book rather then a novel. It's nice to look at, and to feel, but there's not any surface-subject.

Most parts of a giallo won't make much sense, because it isn't supposed to. Anyone who watched Suspiria for the very first time will agree with me. Also, a traditional giallo is usually a whodunnit, and Argento made Suspiria and Inferno more interesting by adopting a supernatural angle to both of them.

But with Tenebre, he returned to the classic murder mystery angle (the more traditional giallo) with a jaw-dropping climax. Each murder sequence in Tenebre, as in most giallos, is presented as a masterpiece of a professional painter. The bright, vivid and colorful use of graphics, the wacky and very heavy background music accompaniment, the atmosphere which literally dripped throughout the movie...are all fine examples of Argento at his finest form.

Also, if anyone has noticed the contrast, most parts of Tenebre are shot in extremely bright conditions - daylight, brightly well-lit rooms and hallways (which is a tad different from some of his earlier movies)...Argento said that he deliberately wanted to use "realistic lighting' for this movie, to add a more realistic, scary touch...which sort of went against the real meaning of the title, Tenebre. Also, a murder sequence in the latter part in which a totally bright, white wall is suddenly splashed with oozing, brightly crimson red. Now THAT's a really lovely touch...

The movie was made purely as an export to Hollywood. Most of it was shot in English, except for Nicolodi and a few others who got their lines dubbed (and badly at that!) When released here initially, it sank. Re-released as Unsane, it attracted strong negative criticism. It was only after getting a proper DVD and VHS release in the late 90s that Tenebre attracted its now-famous cult following. (I don't blame you if you have seen an earlier heavily-edited version of Tenebre, because that one is totally nonsensical) Many people blamed Argento for being sexist, and the inherently sexual aberration theme of the movie only added to the argument (remember the childhood flashback from the movie, about the incident on the beach?)

In short, Tenebre is a beautiful and breathtaking movie. Most Argento movies have plot-wise flaws, and this one is no different, but it more than makes up for that with some dazzling murder sequences and fine cinematography, and some really special heavy-synth music by Simonetti and crew. (especially after they had disbanded as Goblin by the time this movie was made)

I still think that Suspiria is the man's finest work yet, and I can give plenty of reasons for that (for all the die-hard Tenebre fans), but I wont prolong this post further...I ll just show one solid reason for my reasoning - the climactic sequence of both movies. Compare them yourself and then ask...which one stands up for repeated viewing today?;)

[Doc Faustus]

A lot of excellent points on the nature of gialli were made. I think it's important for people to understand these things before getting into Argento. When we see a thriller in the Western idiom, we expect it to be based on results instead of the experience, but giallo embraces nonlinear storytelling, it's not where you get, but the journey is its own reward. But, I'm also with V in that Tenebre is sort of underwhelming compared to his other work. Argento is impressive because he's a radical within an innately radical genre and there are just fewer radical aspects of Tenebre. To Chronogrl I recommend Opera, Inferno and Phenomena, which are his most visually rich and radical gialli, and also the most primal and archetypal. Opera also has a lot of fun metafilm, down to its title (a pun, because it also means "work" and it says a lot about making horror films and the nature of viewing). If you like Hatchet for a Honeymoon or the Miraglia's gialli than you'll like Tenebre, if not then you might just not be into traditional gialli.

[jenna26]

Originally Posted by ChronoGrl

I haven't given up, though. I definitely agree with you, Jenna, and you all that there are more to see (Jenna - Was it you who had emailed me a whole list of Italian Horror recommendations? Unfortunately my PM box ate them all. :().

Yep, that was me....I'll check my sent box and see if it is still in there. :)