Who do you think won the Presidential debate?

[movieman64]

Kerry won for delivery, and Busch won for substance.

I'm voting for Busch

[meetthecreeper]

But, you say you are a practicing witch for 20 years. I find this very interesting. I know you are not republican, but I would also like to point out that the republican party (if they had their way) would saturate this nation with Christianity. If you have children, you would realize how frightening this idea is. I'm an atheist, and have to send my daughter to a public school. And even though the law doesn't allow it, the teachers (at least in this area) take it upon themselves with every opportunity to bring god into the classroom. This is my MAIN problem with the republican party. It all boils down to separation of church and state. I'm tired of the decisions a president makes having a basis in his faith. Stem-cell research, for example. Logically, it is a necessity. Many Americans could benefit greatly from the results of this research, and to ban the practice of stem-cell research is simply immoral -- unless you fall back on religion to support your decision against it. It blows my mind. [/B][/QUOTE]

Oh dont get me started on religion, I dont care what anyones religion is and I dont force mine on anyone, but it seems that Christianity feels the need to do so. More people have died in history in the name of Christianity than all of the wars combined. Yea I agree there are alot of fundamentalist Christians in the republican party, one reason I dont care for them either. THe Bush administration made a point of saying that Pagans and or Wiccans and the like is not a legit religion, who the hell are they to decide that. Here is where I see the intolerance. I also agree with you whole heartedly on stem cell research, if it would save lives....I just happen to be in a tough position with how I vote and The lesser of 2 evils doesnt work for me. If I had to choose I would vote for Bush as much as he pisses me off at times, I just cant bring myself to vote for Kerry, I just dont believe that he believes in anything except how to get elected. I really like Howard Dean, even though I didnt agree with everything he said especially the war on terror, but the media made him out to be a nutjob and the democrats abandoned him. Shame, I think its 3rd party voting for me again which gets me nowhere.

[Arioch]

Id just like to say goodform on both Stingy AND Creepers back and fourth debating here....

You guys raise the bar as to the maturity and well formed arguments here....A grand example to the rest of we posters....

Goodform...

[meetthecreeper]

Originally posted by Arioch
Id just like to say goodform on both Stingy AND Creepers back and fourth debating here....

You guys raise the bar as to the maturity and well formed arguments here....A grand example to the rest of we posters....

Goodform...

Thanks bro, yea its better to have a serious discussion instead of taking it down in the gutter and name calling.

On that note, Stingy, I think that you are in a unique position being an atheist, whereas someone who is a christian, buddist, Pagan, Wiccan, or whatever, they have as myself do convictions to follow, and dont get me wrong I am not saying that you dont have convictions, but what I am saying is that it is hard for an individual not to make decisions based on thier faith.

I try to do right by folks and have respect for Nature and Mother Earth. I take only what I need and try to live my life by a certain philosphy. After all I think that religion is philosphy and it all depends on how you look at it. If W believes in his heart that stem cell research is wrong because of his religious beliefs I cant fault him for that as much as I disagree with him on that issue. Of course there are those that claim to be religious and then do things that are against everything that they claim to believe, some want to have it both ways. I guess all you can do is try to live life the best way you know how and in your heart you know if something you are doing is right or if it is wrong.

This is the problem I have with Kerry, he changes his position too many times so it is really hard to figure what he really believes. I prefer someone who can tell me what they think or feel and then not change that position based on polls or pressure.

Example: Alan Keyes- this guy is a right wing nut job to most, but he says what he thinks( I have heard the guy speak on several occasions) and he has never changed his position on what he has said. He said he thought that homosexuality is wrong, when asked about Cheneys daughter, he said that just because its CHeneys daughter makes no difference to him, he still believes it is wrong and condemns her for it. Now I dont think that is right by any stretch of the imagination, but the guy sticks to what he says and what you see is what you get. I would really like to see someone in politics like this, not his positions but his taking a stand whether it be unpopular or not.

[brideofcthulu]

They say never to discusss religion or politics. No one ever sees someone else's point of view no matter how well argued or construed that point is. I wondered how long it would take the argument to come down to Christ and gay marriage. All I can say on that is, I can't you believe in the 21st century IN AMERICA people are telling others who they can and can't marry. I can't believe that people don't realize marriage and love are basic rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Why you would care who someone else marries or worships is beyond me. How could two people getting married effect you. I think this election should be won or lost on issues that affect all of us, all of our defense, all of our taxes, all of our health. Not on if two people who want to, get married. It seems laughable that that is even an issue.

[Stingy Jack]

Originally posted by brideofcthulu
They say never to discusss religion or politics. No one ever sees someone else's point of view no matter how well argued or construed that point is. I wondered how long it would take the argument to come down to Christ and gay marriage. All I can say on that is, I can't you believe in the 21st century IN AMERICA people are telling others who they can and can't marry. I can't believe that people don't realize marriage and love are basic rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Why you would care who someone else marries or worships is beyond me. How could two people getting married effect you. I think this election should be won or lost on issues that affect all of us, all of our defense, all of our taxes, all of our health. Not on if two people who want to, get married. It seems laughable that that is even an issue.

I agree, it seems laughable. But it really isn't. I'm not the type of person that can stand by and idly let an egregious wrong occur to someone else when it is in my power to stop it. If the government is stomping on the rights of ANY of its citizens, be them black, gay, christian, wiccan, atheist, old, young, stupid, or suffering from rectal prolapses, and I have the power to vote those responsible out of office, I'll go ahead and do it. True, gay marriage does not affect me personally. But, I won't put my vote behind a candidate who does not practice tolerance and understanding.

[brideofcthulu]

Eloquently put. The point that I was trying to make exactly. I believe that marriage is an intrinsic right, not one to be debated. I can't believe that people don't understand that. Did you think I meant something else?

Honestly right now we all know kerry is in the lead by a small fraction but my opinion is still set on Bush he is a good man a great leader and in the end people will realize who they realy want as their leader for the next four years. Kerry is way to undeciceve about everything i mean just look at how many times he has gone back and fourth about the war. O h by the way im Destiny AMK babygirl and im 15 and glade to meet you all.:D

[allmykids]

I'm sure you can all tell she's a chip off the old block!! LOL

[Steve_Hutchison]

I'm Canadian so my opinion doesn't count. I want Bush out, he scares me. If the world was better made, Arnold could be president.