what do u think god or satan looks like

[Stingy Jack]

Originally posted by bwind22
Alrighty y'all...

Good conversation/debate! But I'm tired, so I'm going to bed now.


P.S. LOL @ erasing men's nipples. Who needs 'em?

Well ... some guys like to pierce them. Go fig. Yes, great conversation. Thank you all! My daughter woke up with a nightmare in the middle of it, so now I need to put her back to bed. Good night!

[bwind22]

Originally posted by Stingy Jack
You say: "I have free will. Just because God knows the choices I will make, does not mean I still do not have the choice. Choice = free will."

I say: "You don't have free will. Because god knows the choices you will make, they aren't really choices at all ... you just think they are."

And I'm afraid we may have to leave it at that.

I say: We do have free will because we get to make our own decisions. God knows what we will choose because he can see all of time at once.

You say: Because God can see all of time at once and thereby knows our decisions, we really have no control over them and thereby, we have no free will, only a predestined course of actions.

I say: Just because God knows what we will choose doesn't make the decisions any less our own. He can just see the future as the present and is aware of what we will decide.

You say: If he knows what we will decide, then there is no free will.

I say: It's still free will because the decisions we make belong to us. He just sees the end result.

But, you're right, we should leave it at that. We could go around in circles all night pondering the mysteries of the universe, but I'm tired.

[Vodstok]

I know somebody out there is going to hate me for reviving this, but it is very interesting. And I Still applaud everyone for keeping it civil.

I have a quick question. If we accept that A. God exists and B. People have free will and C. God NEVER makes a mistake (which, personally, I think all of you put way too much pressure on the guy....if he is there.) How do we get Kind god/Wrathful god? If he knows we are going to make mistakes, knows that we will turn into what we have, why did Sodom and Gammora get destroyed?

He seemed awfully pissed off then, but he knew it was coming, he KNEW it wouldnt change. So why the anger? Also, if we accept the great Deluge as fact (i would like to see proof. i have seen evidence in PART of the world (i watch a Lot of Discovery channel), but certainly nothing world wide), why did God kill off all those people? He knew what decisions they would make, and how they would turn out, but was angry with them none the less.


maybe i am jumping to conclusions here, but the only reason i could see for someone getting angry over something like that, would be if they thought the people might change, or behave differently, but they didnt. However, that is naiveté, which is a flaw. Technically. And God is supposedly flawless.

Which brings up another point. Perhaps if there is a god "he" is near-omniscient, and near-omnipotent, but not quite. Maybe religious folks have a complex like a lot of kids do:

Dad is perfect, dad can do no wrong, dad could kill a dragon with a toothpick because he took karate once when he was a kid.

When in Reality, Dad can do a whole shitload of things, but dad isnt 100% infallible. He yelled at mom once, spanked you because you knocked over the paint can, and yelled at the dog for crapping in the yard, but he still loves you, he still works hard for you, and he would still do anything in his power for you.

Just a layman's theory, feel free to disagree, but even though i dont believe in him, that is how i think he would be if he turned out to be.

[Stingy Jack]

Actually, the guy who wrote "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People" finally ended up conceding this point. Eventually, his argument brought him to the revelation that god could not be perfect (i.e. "omnibenevolent, omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient".) A god that is all good, and all powerful, would not allow evil in the world. And yet, evil is. He could allow it, and choose to do nothing about it ... but then he is not omnibenevolent (in the true sense of the word), or maybe he doesn't allow it, but cannot do anything about it (in which case, he is not omnipotent).

And I agree with your point on the Good God/Wrathful God. I bring this up in these discussions as well. If we are talking about the Christian God, read Genesis 6:5-7.

6 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."
7 "And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; or it repenteth me that I have made them."

Now, why would god feel regret that he made man, particularly if he KNEW that man would turn out this way? And, after he destroys man, he comes to the realization that he may have made a mistake and acted out of anger. Read Genesis 8:21.

8 "And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every living thing, as I have done."

Here he says: "Oooo ... I shouldn't have done that. Man is evil by nature, and will not change no matter how many times I wipe him out. Well ... I don't do it again. And here's a rainbow to prove it." The rainbow he puts up a little later.

So, God feels regret TWICE! And admits to making a mistake. He can't be perfect. But, I still have a problem with him allowing some the evil he allows. It's like, if I made a robot, KNOWING that the robot would go on a murderous rampage as soon as I was done, but I made it anyway ... and then sent the robot to hell (or, utterly destroyed it because it did what I knew it would do when I made it) ... seems a little off-kilter. I should never have made the thing in the first place. If god knew I was going to hell before I was even born ... then spare me the sufferring and don't let me be born! Save us all the trouble. I would do that for a child I cared about.

[Vodstok]

And all of this comes back to one thing:

We "know" this from the Bible, the Bibkle was written by man, the same type of men who say "we can not know the mind of God", yet still want us to accept that they know at least more than we do....:rolleyes:

[Stingy Jack]

As far as the flood goes ... Have you ever read "The Epic of Gilgamesh"? It is an epic poem that predates the Bible. In fact, it is the oldest work of literature that we have. In it, there is a flood myth that is VERY similar to the one detailed in the Bible. So, I'm beginning to think that there just may have been a flood at some point back then.

[Vodstok]

I watched something on the Discovery Channel once that pointed to an area around (I think) the dead sea, where they found evidence that it was once MUCH deeper, but there was a crack in the geologic dike that held back the water, and that the sea emptied in a massive "dam breaking". According to their studies, it would have had a massive impact on the entire region, which just so happens to be the part of the world that all of these tales come from.

If i can find moreinfo, i will post it. it was a very interesting parallel between the a "Bible story" and an actual event.

It also goes a long way to show how things can get blown up in the telling. But then again, if to you, the middle east is the world, and it gets flooded, then technically, the world was flooded.

If china was unaffected, it wouldnt matter, because you didnt even know it existed.

[Egekrusher]

Originally posted by misterX
ya you people are correct, and what about the jews? o boy.
and the big bang is a unproven myth and always will be, sorry to say, but if the universe began as they say, there would multiple "centres" (for the lack of a better word,) not just one. the one thing atheist often leave out when describbing either " the big bang' , which is now called the big expansion by some. (another thing the big bang theorist have been proved wrong about). or evolution. is the word 'THEORY" . because thats all they are. theories. But scienctist will always preach what they, think might have happen as a fact. rather than a theory. like the how the moon came to be. they don't know. because they have never witnessed a moon being formed or caught in a planets gravitaional pull. So they just theorieze and people will take that as matter of fact.and as far as the moon being formed because something big slammed into earth while it was a big ball of magma. didn't happen sorry.

o_0

I don't know what that was, but it wasn't an argument. It was just you saying, "No, didn't happen that way, sorry".

[Vodstok]

Originally posted by Egekrusher
o_0

I don't know what that was, but it wasn't an argument. It was just you saying, "No, didn't happen that way, sorry".

Yeah, i enjoy people who make "absolute" statements about thuings they couldnt possibly know....

[Stingy Jack]

Yeah, that whole thing took place at like ... 3am this morning. It was horrible. I can't stand arguing with people who strut about thinking the knowledge they made up is real. Good thing I had the sources handy.