[Arioch]

To this argument I point out the error that, according to people who use this argument, god is actually more complex and precise than we, or the universe He created. He is so complex, in fact, that we human beings can barely comprehend him. And yet, such a being is free from needing a creator. Which is a self-defeating point for the argument of design. How can one argue that complex, ordered things like the universe must have a creator, and then say, two seconds later, that complex things like god do not? You've just shown that not all things that are complex and precise need a creator. So why must you arbitrarily assign this requirement to the universe, and not to god? Could not the universe have "always been"?

Nicely phrased....i've often pondered this one myself...