Are Snuff Movies real?
 

I started having a civilisedand intelligent debate about this which was on off topic on another thead. Because I thought it was interesting and the debate was objective etc I thought I'd move it here and get other peoples opinions.

Start of original debate: HERE

The last few bits:

Originally Posted by Fearonsarms View Post
I have been on other sites (not horror ones) where people claim to have seen a snuff because it was disguised as a horror film. I don't know if wheth they say is true but the fact that there is a market for this I find more disturbing rather than point the finger at the makers of Martyrs and I spit on your grave which was the only mistake I made.

FEROX13:
I would say not as 'Real Snuff Movies'* don't exist. No snuff movie had ever been found. There are rumours that '3 Men 1 Hammer' was meant to be made to sell but this was never proven. There have been an other couple of failed attempts at doing them but where these attempts already had a market for their product was never determined.

That childporn ring that was broken up in Russia were siad to be dealing kiddie snuff too according to early media reports but again nothing came of this..

But then again maybe I'm wrong - if I am and those people on that forum are telling the truth then I would advice them to contact Al Goldstein - the editor of SCrew MAgazine. He'll give them $1,000,000 if they can produce the goods.

*I'm, using the FBI definition - That the murder has to be done solely for the purpose of making a film that will be later sold for profit.

siorai:
Do I think snuff exists? Most definitely. I see absolutely no reason for it not to exist. There is a market for anything you can imagine and a multitude of things you cannot. The market may not be big, but it's there. If there are sites dedicated to real gore like ogrish or the long gone murman, there is a market for snuff. If you want to get realistic, there's a good portion of the population who are already quite interested in snuff. They're the people who rabidly watch the news every night for updates on the various wars around the world, they're the people who go to sites and watch videos released of beheadings, they're the people who slow down and rubberneck at accidents on the side of the road. Sure, it's not the true definition of snuff in that people aren't being killed for the sake of being filmed, but it's still real people really dying on film on people are actively searching it out to watch it.

Fearonsarms's:
I'll keep this to the discussion. I agree with ferox13 that I don't believe a commercially marketed snuff film exits. Yet anyway. I have no idea whether what people were saying was true I just think it is worrying that they are boasting about it. I reiterate what I said earlier in that it seems to be a dark side to human nature for some people to seek out a snuff film. I hope that they are reffering to the banned film "snuff" on IMDB. I haven't seen this myself but IMDB and others proved this was a hoax Take something like "Hostel" could such a thing really happen? Money does talk its own language. But I do think that the fact anyone who tried to market a snuff film would be instantly prosecuted is a huge factor. But if they could get away with it I think someone would actually do it.

Ferox13 View:
Do you really think so? How do you explain not a single film ever turning up, especially when police and law enforcement agencies have uncovered the most heinous types of child porn but never a commerially made snuff film.


siorai :

I just can't see any reason why it wouldn't. Like I said there is a market for anything and everything. Obviously people are interested in seeing violence. This board is absolute proof of that. Of course most of us prefer to keep the violence fake. But do you really think that there has never been someone who not only wanted to see a real death, but also had the means to make it happen? I fully agree with Fearonsarms in that "Money does talk its own language." With enough money at your disposal, anything is possible.

As for the films not turning up, I'm not sure. It's quite possible that some already have, but they get ignored as fakes. Look at Guinea Pig and Charlie Sheen. It's entirely within the realm of possibility to have the situation reversed. Someone finds a real snuff film, turns it in, and the authorities just think it's fake. It's pretty amazing how realistic films can be nowadays so the line of knowing if it's real or not can definitely get blurry. For example, August Underground's Mordum. There's some pretty damn realistic stuff happening in there. Bits and pieces could very easily be thought of as being real. So what's to say someone couldn't see something real and just determine (probably because they deep down don't want to admit the real possibility) that it's just another Mordum-type flick?

The other reason could very well be the hardcore illegality of them. You couldn't just stumble upon something like this. You would really have to know people who trust you implicitly to find out about this. It's not like you go to a party and happen to meet a coke dealer who's willing to upfront tell you he's a coke dealer and immediately sell you some. So I doubt you would see films just randomly being shown or loaned out to friends. It would be a very tight-knit circle of people involved. Look at child porn. It didn't just start within the last couple decades. It's only recently that it's come to the forefront and people are finding more and more of it mainly due to the internet. It's far too easy for people to screw up online and say something to the wrong person. The illusion of anonymity can make people say things they wouldn't face to face. It wouldn't surprise me if within the next 5-10 years we see real snuff be revealed for the same reasons.

Sure, it would be nice to believe that something as heinous as filming the death of someone for pure profit couldn't exist in this world, but this isn't the land of My Little Pony or the Care Bears unfortunately.

siorai :
I just can't see any reason why it wouldn't. Like I said there is a market for anything and everything.

Ferox13:
This seems alot like the 'logical dictates it so' arguement. I would agree that there are an infinate amount of planets out there and common sense is that at least one must have alien life..

Thats how I feel but there isn't a single shred of proof to say otherwise until then I remain sceptical. Thats not to say I know 100% that there is no Alien life but so far but lack of evidence seems to prove otherwise. That is how I feel about snuff films..

siorai:
The other reason could very well be the hardcore illegality of them. You couldn't just stumble upon something like this. You would really have to know people who trust you implicitly to find out about this. It's not like you go to a party and happen to meet a coke dealer who's willing to upfront tell you he's a coke dealer and immediately sell you some.

Ferox13:
Of course not. But you do know that the 2 major ways of the police catching people is 1) In the Act of the Crime and 2) When some one informs on them.

The 2nd is how they catch most drug dealers. They catch some one in possession and they get them to roll over on who gave them the drugs. This is how criminals operate. They rat each other out to save their skins.

I find it hard to believe that if Snuff Movies were being made then there was no one in the circle of production/knowledge who was caught (for any crime - unrelated or otherwise) and was willing to roll over on the fact if they lessened charges...

Keep in mind a snuff movie has never been confiscated by any Law Inforcement agencies EVER...So to get some one inform on knowledge of a real snuff ring would be a Holy Grail of collars...

And theres always that $1,000,000 dollar reward if you can show proof to Mr Goldstein. Do you really think any criminal enterprise would be so air tight..

I think its worth repeating as there is good arguements both sides and I didn't want to derail the Worse Movie thread...

I love Urban Legend stuff so I'd love the rest of the people here to give their 2 cents.

I really don't think true snuff films exist. If I remember correctly in order to qualify as a true snuff film, the actress/actor has to come in thinking they're starring in a porno or horror film and then find out after the fatal blow that they've been deceived. There has never been a documented case of this happening. Like Siorai said, there's no reason to assume this couldn't happen, but I don't think it has.

As for the argument that making violent films leads to a progression to commit violent acts, that is hogwash. Violent horror films and video games have always made very convenient scapegoats for real life crimes, but the fact of the matter is atrocities have been commited by sick individuals since the dawn of man and they needed no movie as a trigger. I don't think sitting in your room watching Saw or August Underground for days at a time is going to turn you into a violent person (it might give you quite a headache though).

Well I was using the FBI definition:

That the murder has to be done solely for the purpose of making a film that will be later sold for profit.


As for the 2ns thing you mentioned it's a whole different kettle of fish - and is actually what I did my Degree dissertation on..

A decent low budget indie documentary touches on this subject: S&Man. I found it pretty interesting and I believe it may still be on Netflix insta-que.

I've seen a few Docs on the matter but few with any real insight but I've not seen that. I'll try find it..

So after seeing it what was your opinion?

Okay, that makes sense. It also makes it clear that things like Faces Of Death and videos made by Lake/Ng or Bittaker/Norris don't qualify as snuff films.

Shouldn't have read that entire thread. I saw the issue come up and lost my head.:o

Yeah they were serial killers who were killiong anyway..the recording was just a by product..And I don't think Lake/Ng actually recorded the killing..and Bittaker/Norris were just audio but that is not the point any way..

I tend to agree this but surely if there were any someone would've slipped up and been busted just like in the case of child pornography.

....that's already been mentioned but just thought I'd back that point up.

And to expand on my point - it doesn't need to be someone who made the movies just any one who was in the loop who wanted to make a deal with the cops.

Elvis - Do you have that copy of Fatal Visions with the article about Henry and Otis where they claim to be making films for the 'Hand of Death'?

Nope. I've ones with Mad Dog MacKenna (he mentions The Hand Of Death), Gerad John "The Sex Beast" Schaefer. There's a interview with Betsy Blood that touches on snuff films.

Got one with a feature on Canberra director Damian Heffernan's version of Cthulha (round 1996) you might be interested in.

I'm honestly not sure. I highly doubt it occurs as often as some people may think but I'm positive it has happened. Everyone in the movie says they have never seen or heard of one(mostly horror/porn type directors) but there is no doubt in my mind it has happened.

Well it is a matter of fact that snuff turn some people on, and I would say that if where is something that turn people on there is a good chance there exist films of it. It is also a matter of fact that some disturbed individuals have murdered others for the sexual pleasure that give them. I have no doubt that there exists video of people being murdered during sexual acts, however I seriously doubt you will find these movies in the horror section of the video store, such movies would be locked up in the police evidence lockers, or at best (or worst) in the hands of sick individuals who would not just spread it all over the place as they know they will then be arrested.

No Snuff movie has ever been discovered by a Law enforcement agency.



Cool I might get you hang onto those for me..I read Schaefer's book after reading about him in FV and its fucking nuts...

I've that Cthulhu film - despite being zero budget and a hodge podge of stories I kinda liked it..

Sure there all yours man.

Well, that's what they SAY...

Perhaps one... or more than one HAS been discovered, but they're keeping it under wraps... because the world seems a safer place if it's believed no such thing exists...

THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE!

Kudos to ferox13 and siorai for their open discussion on this on that other thread and I should have started a seperate thread about this issue instead of starting it in the worst movie thread. It is very interesting to read people's views on this. Can I just reiterate the discussion that watching horror movies=killing people for real is an entirely different argument one I never advocated as any horror fan knows this is as (wickerfan puts it) "hogwash"

Could be possible. There's a lot of sick fucks out there who are very rich and powerful. I guess we'll have to wait till some poor widower discovers dubious 8mm film in her deceased husband's vault ;)

From the original thread:

As for aliens, how big is the universe and how long have we been looking? it's like looking for a needle in a haystack, pulling out a few stalks of hay and saying that the needle can't be in the stack because we looked. I feel that snuff might be in the same category. It would be a very, very small community. How many man-hours are actually devoted to finding snuff? Probably not many in comparison to those put towards more common crimes. A lack of evidence does not necessarily denote non-existence. It may just be an indication that more time is needed to find it.



I just think that in a community that would be devoted to killing people for profit and entertainment, ratting them out would obviously have very dire consequences. You're dealing with people who have absolutely no regard for human life or any laws. I also would think that $1,000,000 wouldn't be that huge of a sum in comparison to what a snuff ring might possibly pull in since you're talking about a very niche market with very big consequences if caught so the seller could almost name their price.

We have this http://wtfpalace.com/wp-content/uplo...0/08/GpLTG.jpg so I would not be suprised if someone are filming snuff.

Friday the 13th parts 2,3,4,5 nightmare on elm street parts 1,2,3,4,5. Halloween 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.
Were all snuff films. Don;t believe me. Well ask yourself this. How many of those people killed in those movies have been seen again.

That would actually be an excellent premise with which to make a movie:).

In all seriousness, how could there be not one single reported case of a snuff movie globally, even if they are being produced sporadically and under extreme secrecy? For it to be snuff, it has to be made for the sole purpose of being a business venture. Therefore, as a business, normal market forces apply and will result in it having a 'circulation'. So, by it's very nature, a snuff movie would've eventually surfaced.

I'm not saying one doesn't exist that will ultimately surface or equally, that the first one to surface has yet to be made. We just don't know. Based on evidence, snuff is a myth and, based on logic, it's only a matter of time, if it isn't here already.

In short, I'll believe it when I see it.

Probably the most productive thing to do is for the thread starters to start a 'spin off poll thread'. Does it exist, yes or no?

I watched a documentary called "Snuff", it was pretty good.

Why wouldn't they be real? There are a lot of sickos who would film that sort of thing for themselves and get off on it, same reason some killers take pictures.

I would say because there isn't a single scrap of evidence to say otherwise..

Killers take pictures/make audio recording or take objects from the victims to help recall the act of and thrill of killing for them.

They don't do it to distribute it for financial gain...

The risks of making the movie far out-weigh the gains. You go to all that effort, risking incarceration just to provide footage of an actual murder. The sort of people who would want to buy your movie can access a mountain of similar material for free online.

It doesn't really work as a business, especially with file sharing. You'd only sell a few copies before it'd flood the net. And to fork out the sort of money it'd be, to buy the first copy, well, you could probably buy Madeleine McCann for less.

I think the question isn't, 'does snuff exist?' but, 'why would you bother?'

Just for the sake of argument, someone who paid a million dollars for a snuff film is not likely to post it on youtube, or put it up for share on soulseek or something similar.

It is bizarre what people will advertise and even more bizarre when someone answers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes

No, but the person who made it would, like any other production company, try to sell as many copies as possible. Eventually it would leak. And if that movie didn't, and the makers made a fortune, they'd make another and it would leak.

The only way a 'movie' could remain secret was if there was only one copy, which the owner kept completely to himself. But then, by definition, it wouldn't be snuff, it'd just be the ultimate 'happy slapping' movie.

If snuff is defined as being 'for remuneration' purposes, then I think if it exists, it has to leak out. Also, does there have to be a narrative for it to be snuff? Minor point but interesting.

I remain optomistic a secret could be kept between a few people.

You may well be right. Here's another question: if snuff exists, where in the world are it's most likely origins?

I'm going to say either Russia or Cambodia

LOL@optimistic

"The film that could only be made in Limerick... where life is CHEAP. ..."

"Similar" just doesn't cut it. Not just for someone wanting snuff, but for most anything that someone is passionate about. If you really, really want a burger from Jack in the Box, White Castle just isn't going to cut it. It's similar, but it's not Jack in the Box is it? So if someone wants to see someone murdered, some random Faces of Death or Ogrish clip just wouldn't cut it. The end result may be the same (someone is killed), but the intention is all wrong and that intention would be the whole key to snuff.

I don't think that it would "flood the net." This isn't Blockbuster we're talking about. The buyer and seller would probably know each other quite well. Well enough so that I would tend to assume that a seller would know every single person they've sold a particular film to if they even sell it to multiple people. If they saw that film get released publicly I highly doubt they would have any problems with finding each person they sold it to and having a "very stern talk" with them. *wink* *wink* Plus you have to think of the person buying the film. Quite possibly the film was "made to order." The way to garner the highest possible price for the seller would be to tailor each film to the client. So if the film is that personal, why would the buyer want to share it with everyone? It was made for them and them alone.

I think the answer to "why would you bother" is quite obvious. Money. Tons and tons of money. With the obvious risks involved coupled with the (hopefully) very niche market, a seller could name their price.

You make excellent points and I agree that the reason to make a 'snuff' movie would be money. However, if one was made it would ultimately be greed that would reveal it's existence.

If I made you a movie and you paid me $1m for it, even if we had an exclusive deal agreement, the temptation to run off a few more copies would be too tempting. If I broke our deal and sold a dozen copies for similar money, I can promise you you'd have serious problems tracking me down. It's pretty easy to get lost with all that dough.

Similarly, if I paid $1m for you to make me a 'snuff' movie, there would be tremendous temptation to make a few copies to sell and recoup my initial investment.

It seems like the only way it can exist is under very particular circumstances that involve a wall of silence and professional criminals who implicitly trust one another. Possible but unlikely.

That we do not know, the police generally do not publish lists of all they have ever found, and there have been killers who have videotaped their activities. However my point with this is that no you will not find snuff movies at a shady video dealer or on the internet, if there are any, they are in some evidence locker somewhere.

I do not agree that there is not a shred of evidence for UFOs, remember there have been allot of film footage which have never been debunked. There are people who have lost everything by telling what they have seen, and there have been phenomena observed by thousands of people at once. That off course do not mean that what they have seen is aliens, but to say that there is not a shred of evidence I respectfully disagree with.

Think of it this way, if you had a trial, and the prosecutor said, well we have hours of video of the crime, they have not been verified but a fair selection have not been discredited either, we also have many hundred if not thousands of eye witnesses, we have real records of electrical equipment going haywire and so on, and so on. Do you think the judge would call that not a shred of evidence. Would it be enough to convict, I do not know, but there would be evidence, valid evidence.

Also when you think of how wast space is, the many billions, on billions of galaxies, each with billions of planets, what are the chances that there is not life out there somewhere? To me the question is would aliens have the means or interest to come to Earth rather than is there life on other planets for it seams incredible to me to think Earth is the only planet with life. However whatever or not the videos and eye witness accounts is of aliens or something completely natural that we just can not explain yet, that remains to be seen.

There many not be movies made for sale of death and mutilation, that do not means a killer could not film his activities to enjoy later, which have happened. If you say a snuff film is only a film made for profit then I can honestly say I have no evidence or reason to claim they exist, but movies made for the individual or for a small community of sickoes that I find much more believable.

Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2p7i...eature=related

Thank you for the link seams like an interesting documentary. However I hate the secondary title of it. The Dark Side of Porn. It seams like many things there is one step from porn to snuff whatever it exist or not. There is allot I would call the dark side of porn, snuff however is not it.

The reason for the secondary title was that it was part of a Channel 4 series called 'The Dark Side of Porn' - the snuff on was an episode in the 2nd series..

I did not know that. Thank you for the information. I am still not sure I like it though, but it is far more understandable then.