Who do you think won the Presidential debate?
 

Personally, I think Kerry won the debate easily. The whole theme of this debate, that I saw, was whether or not a President should admit he made a mistake when he does make one and change his course of action to fix the mistake.

It is a fact that the war in Iraq was, is, and continues to be a mess. This mess was caused by the errors in judgement committed by Bush. Last night, Kerry tried to get Bush to admit that he did not handle the war situation in the best possible way, but Bush refused to admit to making an error. Instead, Bush blasted Kerry for suggesting that we change how the war is operated, saying that to do so would "send mixed messages" to the world that the American President doesn't know what he's doing -- a message that would be devastating. Kerry, on the other hand, argued that "if you make a mistake, fix it!" Don't continue down the same path errors just to avoid admitting you were wrong. It would be like me in the classroom: Let's say I've developed a certain teaching strategy that I was certain would work. However, when I implement this strategy in the classroom, it is a huge failure. Kids aren't learning, they're constantly confused, and they begin to misbehave because they don't know what's going on in the lessons. Bush's response to this would be: "Keep going with the same strategy. If you change now, it would send a message to the kids that you are an uncertain teacher who doesn't think through what he does. You will lose their respect that way." Kerry's response: "Change the way you teach. It is far less damaging to admit you were wrong and try to repair the error, than it would be to continue with this same line of devastating action."

I agree with Kerry, and I think Bush made himself out to look pretty foolish last night.

the king of the long posts returns to form :D

unfortunately being from the uk and having absolutely no interest in any form of politics.....this is the limit to my contribution to the subject.

Re: Who do you think won the Presidential debate?
 

He does that every time he opens his idiotic mouth, the dumbass baster. Kerry won, hands down. I still say Jerry should be the president. "Screw Kerry! Vote Jerry!"


Kerry/Edwards For President--it's the better and right choice.

And welcome back ol' mighty king. Still serching through the pupkin path?

My biggest beef, if you will, regarding iraq was that implications were made relating it to the 9/11 terrorist attacks and we were told that inteligence reports that WMD are being harbored and that is the purpose of our going against the UN to invade iraq.

then, oh snap, no WMD but we did capture a genocidal dictator and we're going to establish a new regime -- Mission accomplished.

how is the mission accomplished if the mission was based on fictional WMD?

That aside, how hypocritical that we should ignore so much that happens in the world yet step in in Iraq. We waste our lives and resources on the newly fabricated mission where we turn our backs on so much suffering that happens elsewhere, often at our hands?

eff that, yo.

The most disturbing thing I heard during the whole debate was when Kerry said the USA should open bilateral talks with North Korea. What the fuck? God help us if that man gets elected.....



George Bush is a great American and Leader! Hopefully he will continue to be our President for the next 4 years........ he's no doubt got my vote again.

ditto.

we only get to see clips of it on tv(dont have satellite tv) so dont really get to follow whats happening.

Kerry, hands down. I was applauding when he discussed extra protection for nuclear and chemical plants. My father, literally, did Homer Simpson's job at a nuclear station. I don't want to be sitting in Three Mile Island.

Kerry 2005!

The biggest problem the whole world faces is radical Muslim terrorists. Don't you get it??? They will not stop and the will not rest until they have killed everyone on this planet who doesn't share their beliefs and live under their rules.

The reasons for the war in Iraq go WAY beyond WMD's.. Those poor people along with millions of others spread across the globe have been and still are praying for someone"America" to come help them.

It's pretty clear to me that our Country needs to be lead by someone who understands that completely and has the intestinal fortitude to do what it takes to make our world safer from these maniacs ( not someone who changes his mind to go along with whatever the current polls state).

War sucks, yeah and nobody wants it (except the terrorists) You can NOT get through to those people with words, they don't care about anything but killing and destroying the west.


They do not think the same way we do... Would you strap a bomb to yourself and walk into a crowd of innocent people so you could have 72 virgins in heaven? Would you chop off a mans head who is in your Country to help your people? Would you strap bombs to children and force them to walk into a building that has just been built to provide fresh water to thousands of people?

Yeah, lets sit and talk with these motherfuckers! Maybe we can change their minds and live in a perfect Utopia with them...

The reality is we have to kill them before they get ahold of Nukes because they WILL use them!

I feel that it is very narrow-minded to belittle others' religious beliefs because they differ from your own. I also feel that you're making unfair generalizations and assumptions due to this.

That aside, the main purpose of the war in iraq, which is entirely seperate, mind you, was that they were supposedly harboring WMD. We go there and find no WMD, but capture saddam. If that was the intent from the begining, why did our President not position that to us?

Um...he (Kerry) doesn't want to "talk" to the terrorists. He specifically said that he wanted to "kill" them. He wants to "talk" with the nations of the world to help solve this problem.

Just wanted to clear that up.

Bush came across as a blathering idiot. His awkward pauses, long moments of silence and inability to say anything other than stupid, catch phrases really bothered the hell out of me.

Kerry destroyed Bush in this debate. Period.

That said, Kerry came across to me as a naive and idealistic. However, the independent, American voter who doesn't know where Iraq is let alone North Korea and the complexities of our relationships around the world won't even realize it.

I have no idea how one can be so unprepared for a debate.

He did,

WMD's are what the media decided to focus on resulting in tons of people thinking that was THE only reason. Just because we didn't find Wmd's YET doesn't mean they're not there.. Saddam had plenty of time to pass them over to Syria or where ever... It is common knowledge that he had them and used them in the past.. The point is Saddam posed the biggest threat to the world.. He would, could, and probably did put them into the hands of radicals.

Saddam needed to be eliminated as the financial source of Palestinian homicide bombers, and Al Qaeda operations . He paid 25 grand to the family of anyone who would strap a bomb to themselves.
Iraq was home to Ansar Al- Islam another terrorist group. He used WMD's on thousands of Kurds and slaughtered 200,000 Iraqis. He attacked Iran with WMD's.

Iraq deserved to be liberated, they've been waiting for a long time for help from the west...

The reason the war happened when it did is because of September 11th. It was an eye opener to say the least. The biggest threat to the world in this new day of Terror on US soil was Saddam and everyone knew it.

The UN bullshit was all for France, Russia, and Germany to cover their asses because there was a paper trail leading to each one of them.

43 Countries were for using force if Saddam did not comply which he didn't. This was based on the international laws he had continued to break. That had nothing to do with WMD's....


Fuck the UN , that's like asking all of your neighbors to vote on whether or not you should lock your doors at night. We don't need anyone's permission to protect ourselves. Iraq was a good place to start.

Talking with North Korea won't solve anything...

the debate
 

We as Americans do a lot of flip flopping, first we say why didn't you stop 9/11 if you had any idea that it MIGHT happen. Then we turn around and say why did we start a war over what MIGHT be there. Make up your mind!
One thing is an absolute certainty, terrorists hate us and our way of life. If we do nothing, it will be destroyed.
The very things that make us free, make us vulnerable.
The fact that we can disagree with and criticize our government and its actions, is a freedom. That we can discuss it here openly without worrying someone may find out who we are and imprison us or persecute us, is a freedom. We can speak out, or we can remain silent, it is our choice. We don't realize that our civil liberties, our freedoms, are what they hate. They want us to live in fear with a government that knows everything about us, where we shop, where we talk, who owns a gun, who disagrees with the government, who doesn't. They want us to live like they do, I make the rules, you follow them, or you die!
I agree that the war in Iraq has degraded into a mess, but WHAT DO WE DO? Because doing nothing and living in fear, is exactly what they want us to do.

per michael moore who i don't necessarily like, but he has made some good points here:

"I am so confused. Where exactly do you stand on the issue of Iraq? You, your Dad, Rummy, Condi, Colin, and Wolfie -- you have all changed your minds so many times, I am out of breath just trying to keep up with you!

Which of these 10 positions that you, your family and your cabinet have taken over the years represents your CURRENT thinking:

1983-88: WE LOVE SADDAM. On December 19, 1983, Donald Rumsfeld was sent by your dad and Mr. Reagan to go and have a friendly meeting with Saddam Hussein, the dictator of Iraq. Rummy looked so happy in the picture. Just twelve days after this visit, Saddam gassed thousands of Iranian troops. Your dad and Rummy seemed pretty happy with the results because ‘The Donald R.’ went back to have another chummy hang-out with Saddam’s right-hand man, Tariq Aziz, just four months later. All of this resulted in the U.S. providing credits and loans to Iraq that enabled Saddam to buy billions of dollars worth of weapons and chemical agents. The Washington Post reported that your dad and Reagan let it be known to their Arab allies that the Reagan/Bush administration wanted Iraq to win its war with Iran and anyone who helped Saddam accomplish this was a friend of ours.

1990: WE HATE SADDAM. In 1990, when Saddam invaded Kuwait, your dad and his defense secretary, Dick Cheney, decided they didn't like Saddam anymore so they attacked Iraq and returned Kuwait to its rightful dictators.

1991: WE WANT SADDAM TO LIVE. After the war, your dad and Cheney and Colin Powell told the Shiites to rise up against Saddam and we would support them. So they rose up. But then we changed our minds. When the Shiites rose up against Saddam, the Bush inner circle changed its mind and decided NOT to help the Shiites. Thus, they were massacred by Saddam.

1998: WE WANT SADDAM TO DIE. In 1998, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and others, as part of the Project for the New American Century, wrote an open letter to President Clinton insisting he invade and topple Saddam Hussein.

2000: WE DON'T BELIEVE IN WAR AND NATION BUILDING. Just three years later, during your debate with Al Gore in the 2000 election, when asked by the moderator Jim Lehrer where you stood when it came to using force for regime change, you turned out to be a downright pacifist:


“I--I would take the use of force very seriously. I would be guarded in my approach. I don't think we can be all things to all people in the world. I think we've got to be very careful when we commit our troops. The vice president [Al Gore] and I have a disagreement about the use of troops. He believes in nation building. I--I would be very careful about using our troops as nation builders. I believe the role of the military is to fight and win war and, therefore, prevent war from happening in the first place. And so I take my--I take my--my responsibility seriously.” --October 3, 2000

2001 (early): WE DON'T BELIEVE SADDAM IS A THREAT. When you took office in 2001, you sent your Secretary of State, Colin Powell, and your National Security Advisor, Condoleezza Rice, in front of the cameras to assure the American people they need not worry about Saddam Hussein. Here is what they said:

Powell: “We should constantly be reviewing our policies, constantly be looking at those sanctions to make sure that they have directed that purpose. That purpose is every bit as important now as it was 10 years ago when we began it. And frankly, they have worked. He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors.” --February 24, 2001

Rice: “But in terms of Saddam Hussein being there, let's remember that his country is divided, in effect. He does not control the northern part of his country. We are able to keep arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt.” --July 29, 2001

2001 (late): WE BELIEVE SADDAM IS GOING TO KILL US! Just a few months later, in the hours and days after the 9/11 tragedy, you had no interest in going after Osama bin Laden. You wanted only to bomb Iraq and kill Saddam and you then told all of America we were under imminent threat because weapons of mass destruction were coming our way. You led the American people to believe that Saddam had something to do with Osama and 9/11. Without the UN's sanction, you broke international law and invaded Iraq.

2003: WE DON’T BELIEVE SADDAM IS GOING TO KILL US. After no WMDs were found, you changed your mind about why you said we needed to invade, coming up with a brand new after-the-fact reason -- we started this war so we could have regime change, liberate Iraq and give the Iraqis democracy!

2003: “MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!” Yes, everyone saw you say it -- in costume, no less!

2004: OOPS. MISSION NOT ACCOMPLISHED! Now you call the Iraq invasion a "catastrophic success." That's what you called it this month. Over a thousand U.S. soldiers have died, Iraq is in a state of total chaos where no one is safe, and you have no clue how to get us out of there.

Mr. Bush, please tell us -- when will you change your mind again?

I know you hate the words "flip" and "flop," so I won't use them both on you. In fact, I'll use just one: Flop. That is what you are. A huge, colossal flop. The war is a flop, your advisors and the "intelligence" they gave you is a flop, and now we are all a flop to the rest of the world. Flop. Flop. Flop.

And you have the audacity to criticize John Kerry with what you call the "many positions" he has taken on Iraq. By my count, he has taken only one: He believed you. That was his position. You told him and the rest of congress that Saddam had WMDs. So he -- and the vast majority of Americans, even those who didn't vote for you -- believed you. You see, Americans, like John Kerry, want to live in a country where they can believe their president.

That was the one, single position John Kerry took. He didn't support the war, he supported YOU. And YOU let him and this great country down. And that is why tens of millions can't wait to get to the polls on Election Day -- to remove a major, catastrophic flop from our dear, beloved White House -- to stop all the flipping you and your men have done, flipping us and the rest of the world off.

We can't take another minute of it. "

that aside, in regards to the media implying that WMD was the sole purpose, it was positioned as the Primary purpose, and that aside most media today is biased in many different ways thus allowing ample oppurtunity for any other reasons of high importance to have equal coverage.

Hmmm - Kerry's got an awful big face though, hasn't he?

I'm not sure if such an odd looking President would be suitable for World's Most Powerful Man.

I VOTE BASED ON AESTHETICS!

what the hell is a democrate and a republican becuase i dont know

I'm gonna have to agree on Kerry coming out on top in this debate. I missed the first half hour but from what I did see ,Bush kept on coming back to Kerry's so called inconsistencies. It seemed like that was all he had.IMO
Normally I don't get involved in political threads because of the flame wars that usually follow.
On a lighter note.
Does anyone else see the similarities between Kerry and Treebeard?


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...mule/KERRY.jpg

debate
 

Someone who is a democrat and a republican is some one who is smart enough to admit we're going to be f****d no matter what we do, and honest enough to admit we need a solution no one has

oooo uh ok:eek:

Same here!! see I can control myself!!! Yes this subject gets me hot, So I'm going to walk away now!!

FUCKING A!!!! I cant STAND the bi-party system...and thus, refuse to vote for the "lesser of 2 evils" again....

I think Kerry won the debate, but i dont really care, they are both gonna fuck us (btw you neednt censore your language here my friend) no matter what......the only difference is whether we get lubrication with our raping or not....

Damn, some pretty long posts here. Gothic-chick is about to overthrow my title! :)

First of all -- The issue as to whether or not Kerry "flip-flops" on his positions is misunderstood by the Republicans. When Kerry voted for tax cuts, he did so because it was the right thing to do at the time, and when he voted against them, it was because it was the right thing to do at that time. Kerry changes his ideas as the politcal/economic environment changes. You vote for tax cuts when the economy needs it, and you vote against them when the economy needs it. This is what Kerry did. Bush, on the other hand, makes one decision and sticks with it ... regardless of whether or not taking a new course of action at some point would be beneficial. The difference between democrats and republicans is that democrats are more willing to adapt to a changing world, whereas the republicans are not (the republicans will probably never allow gay marriages, for example, even though homosexuality has long ago been accepted by the mainstream culture.)

The war in Iraq has been a long time coming, and EVERYONE knew that Dubya wanted to get Saddam Hussein BEFORE Dubya was elected, and not in a small part because his father wanted Hussein when HE was in office and failed to get him. True, Saddam was a threat. True, he should have been removed from power. BUT Saddam had NOTHING to do with the 9/11 attacks and to say that we are going to war with Iraq over terrorism is a lie! Bin Laden was in Afghanistan, not Iraq. Bush used the war on terror to persue his own personal agenda against Saddam, and lied to the American people about his motives (when it was obvious to anyone why he was REALLY invading Iraq).

But, the war was started -- by Bush. And was started messily -- by Bush. But Bush, being the republican he is, won't admit that he made an error, and will keep putting our soldiers in danger and draining our economy just because he's afraid that admitting his mistake would make him look "imcompetent." Republicans, LISTEN UP! Admitting you're wrong is more competent than not admitting you're wrong and keeping us all in a fucked up situation. Get over yourselves and HELP OUR TROOPS

Agreed....thats the number one thing that pisses me off about Bush...he will never admit to the american public, and more importantly, the 9/11 victim's families.....that made me sick...

i didnt get to watch it cuz i was at my friends house studying. they r way conservative

anyway, ill just say this. i mentioned 'oh her name is heinz. haha, thats funny, thats ketchup' and she points out the 'safeway' ketchup they had "yep see, we dont buy heinz"

well i checked it out at home, like DUH they dont only do tomatoes. well in their frigerator they got jack daniels, wesley, about 4 bags of Oreida..... and guess who parents THOSE companies

i love when peopel try and stand for something, make a point, fail to do ANY research, and make complete asses of themselves.

i see her monday, i will bring it up then. i swear, her mom is such a HUGE bush supporter/kerry hater she will burn all those foods the second she finds out.. LOL!

GDIS

Kerry came off as condescending, being the rich " I know better than you liberal" that he is. Fuck him.

Bush came off as tired and frustrated, I guess being the president isnt all that great of a job. I will give him this, he believes in his heart what he is doing is the right thing to do and doesnt change his ideology based on the political winds. But Fuck him too.

As for Iraq, for the last time the CIA, former KGB, MI6, British intel. the Clinton administration, and most of Congress including Kerry and Edwards thought that Iraq had WMDs. When you get that kind of intel what the hell are you supposed to do??

I know lets wait until a mushroom cloud appears in the middle east and then maybe we can pass another UN resolution right?? Cos' Iraq followed those right? how about another 17 more and maybe something will get done. The Un is nothing more than a paper tiger and couldnt wipe its own ass without the help of the USA.

Lets wait until are kids are face down in the gutter before we tell them about the dangers of using drugs, lets wait until we are HIV positive before using a fucking condom, lets put a loaded gun to our heads and pull the trigger and find out later we shouldnt have done that because why??? it was fucking loaded.

All the dems can do is blame blame blame and have no original ideas of their own and all the republicans can do is deny that mistakes were made. Please tell me how is it we are going it alone when there are 30 other countries that are backing us up??? What is France going to do? throw cheese at the terrorists, I see how well they stood up for themselves during WW2 and Germany, lets appease Hitler good idea. Fuck both of those countries.

We are doing the right thing in Iraq, remember the Kurds??? Do you think Saddam gassed them with fucking kool-aid?? Sooner or later it had to be done, or maybe we should just keep letting terrorists blow up embassy after embassy, barracks after barracks, plane after plane, boat after boat. Appease appease appease.

At least ol Bushie had the balls to do what needed to be done regardless of how unpopular it was.

Flame on muthas!!!!

But before you do that let me say that I am neither Republicrat or Demican, just an independent thinker who is really tired of all this BS.

What about North Korea and their KNOWN WMD's? No one cares that we arent going over their and doing it to them......:confused: its a pretty big, glaring double standard....

Good point Arioch, I also wonder why nothing is being done besides CHina stepping in, the way I figure it is

A. Bush felt that by invading Iraq it would be a slam dunk and other countries would step in line, like Libya did, and that would be that, well he was wrong that it would be a slam dunk.

B. The terrorists dont seem to me to be of any Asian decent it seems that most if not all are Arab.

I also think that if we invaded or attacked North Korea, China would defend them and that would turn into a global shitstorm.

Yep....and so we only go after the countries we can pick on and get away with it.....

What do you expect we're Americans, arrogant as can be. Personally I have had enough of us being the global police department and trying to right every wrong in the world. Some people cant be helped, Somalia for instance, The Balkans, Vietnam, Africa and on and on. Is it right to let all those people be victims of genocide and murder and famine and so on?? NO but we cant fix everything, so who is going to step up to the plate next? Canada??






ANd if I hear how stupid Bush is one more time I am going to vomit, the guy went to an Harvard, last I checked you couldnt get in there if you were stupid. Like we all speak so eliquently. Yea right

Agreed... Kerry would fuck this country up sooo bad.. Bush may not be a good public speaker and a jackass when he opens his mouth but fuck i think he is doing a damn good job as pres. Kerry is just a guy who likes to beat around the bush.

No pun intended right?:p


One word explains that : $$$$$$$$.....

With the amount of money his family has not only can he get into anywhere he wants, legitimately or not, he can also get out of military duty without going AWOL....

Not saying Kerry is any better, but the only reason we are even talking about both of them at ALL is because they have so much money in the first place.....

Makes the world go round in a fucking sick twisted way....

kerry won no doubt

i could tell he was prebared

bush stutered to much and was no ready for the debate. kerry was fro the ppl bush was for the iraqies. screw bush vote kerry 2004:cool:

Do you think his dad being a millionaire and President had anything to do with him getting accepted?

Kerry won, but I've decided to boycot this election due to lack of representation for us Whigs

No I dont, Harvard still has a reputation to protect, do you think they would allow Paris Hilton in? Keep underestimating the guy.

Like I said how well do you speak? He sounds like every average Joe that I know.

Nobody is saying that going to war with Iraq was a bad idea. Not even Kerry. So, I don't know why everyone who defends Bush on this issue uses the argument: "What were we supposed to do? Wait until Sadam blew up the world?" What Kerry is saying (and what the facts point to) is 1.) Bush misled the American people on his motives for going to war with Iraq. 2.) Bush rushed into the war without UN support, without a plan to win the peace, and with troops who were/are seriously lacking in combat defenses. The result is that America has 90% of the casualties and is paying 90% of the cost of the war. We have also discovered that we have basically had to occupy the area in our rush to spread democracy.

Kerry voted for the war, because overthrowing Sadam Hussein was a good idea. However, he did NOT vote that Bush handle the war the way he has. It's not like Kerry is saying: "Good war/Bad war". The war was a good idea, but it is bad because Bush did not initiate it correctly and we now have a huge mess on our hands.

What I would like to know is: Why do people LIKE Bush? What is it about him that is so great? I personally cannot think of a single thing he has done for us here at home since he has been in office. So, I don't see why everyone is so star-struck by this bastard.

easy. he represents everything all american.....

*wonders if bush uses heinz ketchup on his fries*

GDIS