O btw. watch the term "as if" start to used by all of my worshippers here, just as excatly, concur and fuck stick was. god its so good being me.

ok im really starting to think your a nazi whos playing it safe i could be wrong but

waits for the wails of protest lofllllll

wtf does that mean

hey now, o he who wears the snoopy pyjammas. show me one post nay thread. where i have started the insults off? i'm no nazi, but if being a nazi means i don't put up with abuse, then sieg heil. my orange power ranger friend

are you like 3yrs old or somthin whats with these comebacks

o he who wears big bird slippers. they aren't comebacks, i'm just replying to your post.shesh at the paranoia here

its official i hate you

When I was younger I would picture god looking more like zeus from clash of the titans, and satan, more like the devil in legend.

really? funny. i have absolutly no feelings what so ever towards you. and my picachu (sp) look a like friend, if you feel anything towards me then you need to get off the net for a while, and go sniff some flowers or something. take a walk in the sunshine, go chat to some off line friends. then you'll realize what l or anyone else says here doesn't really amount to a hell of beans

ok ya know what misterx lets just stop wasting bandwith and move on

yes. you're right ;ets not waste bandwith. someone might be trying to post something really important, like
"which hand is best to jerk off with, lefty or righty

your not making this easy

i wasn't trying to be diffcult, i was just reffering to all these stupid "v's" polls

I always imagine Satan being extremely handsome. Nice jet black pomp, a soul patch, nicely trimmed sideburns, black eyes, well defined bone structure, and I do believe he dresses much like the Reverend Horton Heat.

Yes.

He is extremely handsome.

Okay, this goes against my better judgement ... but here's my reply. When talking about God, you really can't help but to use "ifs" and hypotheticals. I was working with the idea of god that was given to me by the Christians here ... that he is omniscient. I know that omniscient means "all-knowing." Therefore, if God knows all, then he must know your future. I state that as a simple course of logic. If "this," then "that." As to how I KNOW you couldn't change your future if God knows what it is ... well ... because God knows your future. Your future is laid out for you in his mind, and you have to play it out according to what is in his head (I hate talking about God personified, but I do it for the sake of simplicity). The reason why I say you HAVE to play it out according to what is in his head is because if you did something that god didn't know you would do, then god would not be all-knowing. Hence, this is why I say you cannot have free will if there is an omniscient being out there. Now, I am going to use a hypothetical situation again. The reason for this is because it demonstrates how free will is an illusion when there enters an omniscient being. You go through life, thinking you have free will because you cannot see the future. You can make small predictions ... like, if I don't pay the electric bill, they will cut off my power. But you don't truly know the consequences of all of your actions, or what situations you will face in the future and the choices you will make when you face them. And you think that you have the freedom to make any choice you wish. That is how you live your life now.

Enter: Someone who knows everything you will do in the future, and all of the choices you will make. This guy just starts hanging around your apartment, smiling whenever you do something. You finally ask him: "Why are you smiling?" And he says, "I knew you were going to do that." At first you wouldn't believe him. Surely, you're not THAT predictable. So, you ask him for proof. You tell him to write down what you will say in the next five minutes and put it in his pocket. He does so, then you remain silent for four minutes and 58 seconds. At the last second you say "Strawberry." Sure enough, he pulls out a piece of paper that says: "Strawberry." You might be amused and a little creeped out ... but would dismiss it as a parlor trick. He continues with his annoying "I knew you would do that" as the days go by and it really starts to bug you. Finally, you ask him for real proof. No little party trick. He is to go home for two hours and write down everything you will do in his absence. He grins and says "I'll write it down before I leave and leave it in this envelope for you to read when the two hours is up." And you say, "What if I read it BEFORE the two hours is up?" And he responds "You won't." He writes down what you will do for the next two hours and leaves the envelope on the counter before heading out the door. Two hours pass, and you open the envelope. Sure enough, everything you did was detailed exactly on those sheets of paper. You run to his house, and ask him to write down how the rest of your life will go. He says: "You don't really want me to do that. It would feel as if you weren't making any real choices anymore." But you insist, and he does so. You read the book, and then ... suddenly you know everything you are going to do. And your life from then on feels as if you are a slave to the life written down for you in the book. You can't break away from it, you can't change it, you just follow the story. If anything, not just God, but anything knows your future (and I say "know" in the true sense. As in, they know it. They are not wrong), then you do not have free will. Right now, you only think you do because YOU not going gives you the illusion of free will. You are destined to play out your life as it is written in that book, whether you read it or not.

Now, you say the difference here is that God didn't tell you what your future held. This is true, which is why the illusion of free will is still with you. Right now, you THINK you have free will ... but you really don't (if, as you say, an omniscient god exists). And you would KNOW you don't if god told you. The only thing that happens if god tells you your life is you go from thinking you have free will, to feeling like a slave to your life's story. Your life doesn't change. Your future doesn't change. Any of the choices that you make or would have made do not change. The illusion of free will disappears.

That's about as simple as I can get it. Does anybody follow what I'm saying here?

I never had any question as to what you were saying in the first place.

And as to the original question- I believe that if there is a God, he has no true form. He is more an energy being than anything else.

As for Satan- As stated before, he is a trickster, a prankster, very sly and cunning. I'm guessing that he would be very handsome, dresses in Armani suits, and is very, very charming. The thing is, the devil can't MAKE you do anything, he can only try to talk you into doing it, so he has to use every resource at hand.

The quote by Socrates ... you don't think it's true? You don't think that people, in general, are ignorant to a certain extent? Do you even KNOW what ignorant means? Ignorant simply means "lacking knowledge." It is OBVIOUS that people are ignorant. Socrates merely states that he is wise because he REALIZES he is ignorant, as opposed to everyone he spoke with who thought they were not. It is TRUE. It's happening right now. I realize that I am ignorant ... about MANY things. YOU, on the other hand, stated that you know it all. I would test you on this by asking you questions, but you would just run to the internet and look up the answers. But, we both know that you CAN'T know it all. If you did, you would be pretty fucking famous.
There are things you DO NOT KNOW, hence you are IGNORANT ... just like everybody else. Capice?


As far as the moon thing goes, you know .... I gave you the theory from an ASTRONOMY text written by ASTRONOMERS. And still you think it is bullshit. The Earth would not have been destroyed because it was in it's magma state. A liquid state. Getting hit, or receiving "a glancing blow" as the source stated, would not destroy it. And as far as the moon escaping the Earth's pull ... they tested this theory with computers ... and if you go back and read the source, you will see where I mention computer simulations (Fig. 8.27). I would post the images from the simulation, but my scanner is missing it's cable. Anyway, the moon is held in place not just by the gravitational pull of the Earth, but by that of every other nearby object in the solar system. Particularly the sun. The piece, according to the pictures, begins more like a spray as it is ripped from the side of the Earth. This spray floats off, and forms into a small sphere itself. I will type the caption for Figure 8.27: "This sequence shows a simulated collision between the Earth and an object the size of Mars. The sequence proceeds top to bottom, and zooms out dramatically. The arrow in the final frame shows the newly formed moon." DID it happen this way? I don't know. It seems reasonable, and I trust that the scientists know what they're doing.

Then you say: "Don't you think that animals as intelligent as elephants or dolphins don't know that they will die? And not by accident or some predator?" No, I don't think they do know. I mean, dolphins sure do spend a lot of time tangling themselves up in fishermen's nets. But really ... you tell me to think for myself. Well, I could sit around and make up what I know about elephants and dolphins ... but I would rather someone teach me. That way, I won't be wrong.

I don't KNOW that god doesn't exist ... just like I don't KNOW that in some other dimension lives the giant, flubbering shit-hill of Aldretch. I just don't believe they do.

The Constantine thing ... that wasn't even my argument. I had nothing to do with any of that. I wasn't even online at the time! Why should I give that point to you when I never argued with you about it in the first place? You say you descredited me with your Constantine thing ... What the hell? Are you confused?

I never stated any theories, myths, or assumptions as fact. If you are referring to the god's "omniscience" thing, go back to my previous thread. I was working from what YOU claimed to be fact: "God is omniscient". Even though I believe that is not true, I worked from that point to show that IF that was true, THEN you cannot have free will. I said IF it was true. Not that it WAS true.

I never called you names. I said you were ignorant. This is a fact. Just as I and everyone else in the world are ignorant. You're just one of those people who refuse to believe it. And I didn't say you were stupid. I said you are making yourself sound stupid. There is a difference. It's not like I said: "You stupid Christian", like you did to me in your last reply. I also said you were arrogant. This, too, is a fact. You say I insulted you as a last resort? What? I have made valid points this whole time which you have yet to refute. I can't help it that you are unable to comprehend my argument about no free will with an omniscient being. I tried and tried to make it as simple as possible. I am not ON my last resort. I am not even past my FIRST resort, since you have yet to refute it or challenge it adequately.

Then you wonder why I don't go out and experiment all this stuff myself and resort to books for my knowledge. Did I get this right? Why do I use books to get my knowledge?





Do I really have to answer this?

Exactly.

If we had to rely on first-hand experience for all of our knowledge, humans, as a whole, would not be where we are today. We'd still be living in caves, afraid to go outside because we don't know what's out there. We wouldn't know what's out there because we didn't listen to our ancestors, the people that came before us, or even the people who currently live around us.

His argument holds no validity. Without books and the research and knowledge of other people, we'd still be cavemen.

Thank you! And by the way (this is for misterX), the "sheep" metaphor is for Christians, as stated in the Bible. "The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want".

ok well, l know what you are trying to say. but just answer this. did the man make you do what was written in the letter? or did he just know what you was going to do? And where he told you what was going happen for the during the rest of your life, did he make it that way? or did he know the chocies you was going to make? but whats to say if god was to come down and say. On saturday you will cross the street at 12 pm and you will be hit by a car and killed. how do you know that i wouldn't be able to change that? hmmmm? i still have a choice to cross the road at that time, or chose not to. perhaps! But since goddoesn't come down and tell us what the furtue holds for us then what i just said is redundant. isn't?just because someone knowswha tis gonna happen to someone doesn't mean he made it happen.

Well, assuming that god came down and said that to you ... I would say that you have no choice as to whether or not you could cross the road. Unless the nature of god is something other than what I am working from. As I said before, I am working from two assumptions: 1) God's knowledge is truth. It is not wrong. 2) God never lies.

If we agree that these two things are true (for the sake of this arguement), then I do not see how you can avoid getting hit by the car. If you did avoid it, then either assumption 1 or 2 would be false. Either god didn't know your future with divine certainty, or he lied to you when he told you what would happen to you.

The thing is, it doesn't matter whether he just knows or if he is making you do those things. It is the same thing. If he knows what you are going to do, does that not also mean that you cannot change it, therefore he is, in a way, making you do it?

My wife just woke up and needs the phone, so I have to go. I will be back later, though.

mmmm that sure sounds like you're calling someone stupid, don't you think?the bad thing about about posting is that it's slower than chat. the good thing is you can catch people out

yes, they tested it with computers. and where do computers get their infomation from? last i heard they didnt have free thikning or rational thinking computers. a computer can only work on what a programer tells it too.
well you don't think a animal knows it can will die? well then why does a wilderbeast run from the lion? even a calf that isa few hours old will either hide or failingthat run from a predator. why? would it if it had no concept of death?

well i never said that the term "sheep" doesn't apply to christians. but it also applies to atheist as well but even more so

o and btw the way there are five "theories" (myths) going around about how the moon was formed
1.The Fission Theory
2.The Capture Theory
3.The Condensation Theory
4.The Colliding Planetesimals Theory
5.The Ejected Ring Theory:
which is your "theory?

o an btwx2 i didn't need to go to the net for these answers
(which is again you calling me stupid which you claim to never have done)
i asked my brother who is a student and is very interested in these "myths" ( not his words mine)

what do you mean it doesn't matter if he knows or is making you do it? if he just knows then he isn't making you do it, therefore you have freewill. if he is making you do it, then you have no free will. which we do. and no it doesn't mean i cannot change it. and like i said if someknows you're going to do something. that doesn't mean he is MAKING you do it. gesshhhhhhhhhhhhhh

You know what, I'm done with this. You can't argue with a brick wall.

No you just can't argue with the truth.

Whatever. Nobody knows the truth. Only arrogant assholes think they really know.

Exactly, which is what pisses me off about him. He's just making more of an ass out of himself every time he posts.

Dude, no one knows the truth. Believe whatever you want, but dont shove it down our throats like you KNOW that it is the absolute truth.

Yup. Even those of us that back our beliefs up with facts can still admit that those are just beliefs. Even facts can lie, because they are conclusions reached by imperfect creatures.

Also, yes, I've resorted to name calling, MisterX, because it seems to be the only thing you understand.

you two remind me of a dog and a bitch who have got stuck togther while fucking. ya hypocritical fuckers, by calling me arogant for saying i that i know it as a fact is saying that all ya other bum buddies are, cause they were doing the same. so hows about pulling ya fingers out of each other arses and smell the roses instead of each others shit. btw you two butt pirates are just jealous cause you know i'm right. yet you can't bring yoursleves to say so out of love for one another. go for a march in a gay pride parade. and relax. fuck i hate bitter hate filled losers who hate their betters

well if you didnt sit around masturbating over elton john music clips you would have saw a post, where isaid "of course christians don't know that god is a fact. thats why its called faith. now stop listening to crocodile rock and read what is posted before commenting on them?

are you a fucking simpleton, or just wierd freak who doesn't want to look like a "bad guy"? how thefuck can you say you have resorted to name calling before you or your little bf posted insults directed at me did i insult you? mmmmmmmmmmmm huh? mmmmmmmmm?

I'm done. That's it. I can't fucking stand you, your aggressive attitude, and the high horse you rode in on. You think you are so intelligent, but you can barely form a proper sentence. You contradict yourself at every turn. First you say "Christians don't know for a fact that God exists", and then you say "You can't argue with the truth"? What? I don't understand you, and I don't care to. I'm done with this conversation.

And just so you know, I'm actually bisexual, so your petty insults don't mean jack shit to me.

no wonder you hate god. you thought that you was smart being half a fag you would still get into heaven. huh? pity it doesn't work that way hey?look forward to watching you burn in hell. hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

If I could reach through the computer, I would cut off your balls and shove them up your ass, while making you suck my dick at the same time.

I don't believe in heaven, so I don't care about going there. However, if you really believe in that BULLSHIT, then you may want to change your ways and repent, because God may take a slight offense to the way that you're treating your fellow humans.