I still don't see how The Matrix belongs in the top 100 films of all time, so I'm going to neg vote it too.

Hope you get a bit of time for this thread when you're feeling better.... But don't let things get in the way of your health, or your writing. Get well soon, Lee.

I'm fine with all of then. It does seem a bit early to be talking about The Matrix in the first 10 or 12 films, but I have a feeling once we get down to the 80th and 90th, it's going to look just fine.

I'm all for moving forward, the first Matrix movie was groundbreaking (wasn't on my list though) and changed the way sci-fi movies were received by a general audience. I think it also lent a lot to the shooting of film, especially action films in the future.

V counted Donnie Darko as horror or it definitely would have made my list. An absolutely beautiful film.

I agree with the films. The Matrix, without a doubt, belongs on the list. Maybe there are some flaws in the story, but it does not really matter. It is an all-around amazing film anyway. I am surprised by the hate it has received here.

Good point. At this mark, maybe a film is not on your radar for your top 20, or even your personal top 40, but we're talking about 100. Out of 17 of us, these are the films most agreed upon by the group as a whole. There's going to be an awful lot of films with only 1 vote, with some 60 slots to fill.

Like realdealblues, I personally don't see Once Upon a Time in the West as top 100, but while the story didn't strike me, I can appreciate the film's other qualities -- As one of our members (whom I hope is feeling better soon) said earlier in this thread, "Can't we appreciate a film for it's artistry?". Plus, I understand I'm in the minority with Once Upon a Time's appreciation; but that's OK, people are different, and we're using the benefit of the group.

Personally, The Matrix is decidedly in my top 20 for sci-fi story depth & passion, & technical mastery in cinematography, sound, set, costume, FX, martial arts, etc.

True, but back when we did 100 Years of Horror, it wasn't on the Master List. Interestingly though, the cheesy sequel was.

I'd rather any of the of the Man With No Name films makes the list.

6 are in favor of all films, while 2 have objected to The Matrix and one objection for Once Upon A Time In The West.

I say we put both afore-mentioned films in the backburner (for now) and come back to them when we are debating for the final few slots.

We still have a base of ELEVEN films upon which to build upon, so let's move ahead to the films with THREE nominations each.



The third set of films, which have scored THREE nominations, are:-




(Continued...)

Arguments/objections for/against, if any?

Monty Python and The Holy Grail is hilarious but I wouldn't call it one of the greatest films ever made. I wouldn't include that one.

I really like all those films. So I support passing them all for top 100 films.

I think I know where you're coming from. Holy Grail wasn't on my radar, but yet I quote it and Spinal Tap, and play their audio clips on my radio show often. There's a reason for that. They are at the top of humor film making art form.

Terminator, Back to the Future, Die Hard, and even 12 & a Half Monkeys, Private Ryan, Titanic were not on my radar for best 100 films, either. But reflecting back, I can acknowledge a case for each.

All worthy, no objections.

Dog Day Afternoon
One Flew over...
To Kill A mocking Bird
Vertigo
Saving Pvt. Ryan
12 Monkeys

Definitely the above six are worthy for the Top 100 but I'm not so sure about the rest.

Just personally speaking I wouldn't count a film as one of the best ever just because its funny and quotable

I would be okay with all those choices, though I am not familiar with Dog Day Afternoon.

I personally would neg vote:

Dog Day Afternoon
Edward Scissorhands
Pulp Fiction
Saving Private Ryan
The Terminator
12 Monkeys

Good movies but not Top 100 for me.

Edward Scissorhands maybe not but Terminator is one of the best sci fi action movies and Saving Private Ryan is one of the best war movies ever and an extremely emotional and fantastically shot film.

Pulp Fiction was a whole new way of filmmaking and launched Tarantino's career pretty much.

Never seen Dog Day Afternoon or 12 Monkeys so can't comment on those

Terminator was good, I always liked the gritty feel and the story and if this were a Top 100 of Sci-Fi films, it would be in there, but Top 100 from all genre's, I can't do.

Saving Private Ryan was good for the first 20 minutes in showing what combat is like, but after that I don't feel it offered anything. Come And See or Das Boot were far better War movies. Kubrick's Paths Of Glory & Full Metal Jacket gave us something completely different and I would pick both over Saving Private Ryan.

Pulp Fiction definitely launched Tarantino into the limelight and it was indeed a different style of film, but it doesn't stand as a "great" film to me. Tarantino has done far better and there are plenty of other films that pushed into new boundaries that stand out better as films in my mind.

Well we don't have to pick just one to represent a genre or filmmaker. Saving Private Ryan showed us the emotional toil that war took on the soldiers. Not a lot of war movies do that as well as it did.

I would say Platoon did that at a much more raw, edgy, disturbing and hard-hitting level than Saving Private Ryan.

See, I didn't get that at all from Saving Private Ryan. It felt like the bubble gum version compared to something like The Deer Hunter.

Platoon I could see being in a Top 100.

Platoon and Deer Hunter did it in a dark disturbing way while Saving Privaye Ryan did it in an emotional heartfelt way. It doesn't really make sense to compare.

I would add Platoon in the list as well

If we're talking about the emotional toll from war I guess I would rather see it for what it is and at a deeper level. Saving Private Ryan is more about survivor's guilt. These men died and he lived. Now he has to live with that and wonder if he was good enough to be worth the sacrifice? That's not an emotion exclusive to war and I think there are better films that can make that same point.

It wasn't just survivors guilt. You saw and felt what the soldiers were going through during the war not just afterwards.

I'm neg voting the following films:

Back to the Future: Classic example of what the honourable mentions list is for. A nostalgic classic that really only resonates with people, like me, who grew up with it, but has no place in the best 100 films ever made.

Die Hard: Would be straight into my top 100 80s action movies without question. Somewhere between Bloodsport and Action Jackson....

Johnny Depp has scissors: Nope.

The Terminator: Awesome movie, love the fact that it basically plays out like a 90 minute chase scene, but its not good enough to be considered one of the best 100 movies of all time.

Titanic: Overproduced nonsense... Hell, its not even the best Titanic movie.

12 Monkeys: Its not as impressive or awe inspiring as Brazil, so I cant vote it in until Brazil makes the cut.

There are a few other movies that wouldn't make my top 100, but I wouldn't necessarily neg vote them. Movies like Gone with the Wind, well there are just better examples of romance out there, but its so far above some of the dreck that's in the running that I just cant vote against .

I have never seen Dog Day Afternoon, so I cannot comment on it.

I liked Edward Scissorhands, but I do not think it belongs on this top 100 list. Honestly, I would put it under horror anyway, specifically horror comedy.

Pulp Fiction I will have to strongly disagree with. That film is, in my opinion, one of the greatest films from a phenomenal director. The non-linear narrative was very well done and it seemed to fit really well. There were some really amazing performances by some really A-list actors. Each of them brought something different to the film that really enhanced it. Samuel L. Jackson probably being the one that stands out the most. Also, an interesting cameo by Christopher Walken. Related to all this, the film was brilliantly directed by Tarantino. There is no doubt that this film deserves a place on the top 100.

As for Saving Private Ryan, I do not feel one way or another. It would not bother me if it made the list or not. I could understand the case for it either way.

The Terminator definitely deserves a place on the list. It is an absolute science fiction classic. It is practically a pop culture phenomenon. The story was really interesting. I loved how it combined elements of advanced artificial intelligence and time travel. In fact, today when most people think of AI running amok today, this film immediately comes to mind. One thing I particularly enjoyed in the story was the message on fate. It was beautifully done in that regard. Sadly, Cameron abandoned that for his second film, which s unfortunate because that was one of the best elements of the original. And, the score was one of the greatest in movie history, in my opinion. It was beautiful, while also appropriately dark matching the film wonderfully. The Terminator definitely deserves a place.

I will have to strongly disagree on 12 Monkeys. I think it is absolutely brilliant. Similar to the previous film it played with the concept of fate. In fact, that was a major theme of the film. It explored that topic even better and more thoroughly than the Terminator. There were some terrific performances in this film as well. Bruce Willis and Brad Pitt were especially compelling. Another aspect of the film I enjoyed was that you could not figure out, until later, whether the main character was insane or if this was really true. This was further compounded by his stay in a mental institution. That part of the film was particularly interesting. Even the music had an unsettling, mental illness feel to it. This film is definitely a worthy addition to the list. In all honesty, I would put it pretty high up.

I will have to disagree on Back to the Future. I think there is much more to the film than nostalgia. The film is genuinely a good film. You just have to take it the right way. It is intended as a parody and satire of the 1950s in all ways. One such way is through its ridiculous science fiction plot, which is making fun of similarly ridiculous plots in those films. Further there were some excellent performances by Christopher Lloyd, who played the "crazy" scientist archetype perfectly and Michael J. Fox who played the hero archetype perfectly as well. The music in the film complemented the film quite well as well. I will agree with you that it should be further back on the list, I just disagree it should not be on the list.

I would put Die Hard on this list just to ensure that there is some action represented. In my opinion, there are not many action films that I consider being that great. Die Hard is one of the few that could possibly qualify. Though it seems that you have a much lower opinion of it than me.

Edward Scissorhands (See Above)

As for Titanic. I do not feel like rewriting my previous comments, so I will re-post what I said before. I will just add I strongly disagree it is not the best Titanic film. It definitely is by far. A Night to Remember is good, but it is nowhere near as good or as accurate as Cameron's Titanic

Here were my original comments:
"I know many will disagree with me, but, other than the clichéd romance, this really is an amazing film. I love Cameron's direction, it really draws one in. Even though the romance is a little unoriginal, there is something about it that makes it more interesting than it should be. The film is also an incredibly accurate vision of sailing and sinking of that great ocean liner. In fact, it is probably the most accurate vision. Throughout the film, there are many references to the time its set, which make it appear more realistic. On that note, the film is visually stunning and contains some of the best historical costumes of a period piece, in my opinion. The music that accompanies the film is absolutely beautiful as well. It complements the film perfectly. A year or two ago they re-released the film in 3-D and, I have to say, that was some of the best 3-D I have ever seen. Sorry, for the long defense on this one, it is just this film receives more hate than I think it should, so I wanted to preemptively protect it."

12 Monkeys (See Above), though I add that I have not seen Brazil, but no matter how good that is, that is no reason to no include this film, in my opinion. If a film is good, it's good, regardless to other films that were made.

Well, seems like only 3 films are getting universally accepted from this batch - One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, To Kill A Mockingbird & Vertigo.

Safe to assume they stay chosen, in that case our chosen list of films rises to FOURTEEN.

Let's see some more debating on the rest from this batch, before we finalise any from them.

Ditto & Ditto!

We have 14 or so movies in the list and we are talking about some really ordinary movies like they belong in that elite bracket. I feel like I'm so far removed from the debate at this point that all I'm going to be doing is ragging on peoples favourite films and that's not something I want to do. Its a shame that so many of the amazing movies on our masters list aren't going to get a look in, when compared to some of the flicks with strong support at this early stage, but that's the nature of these types of list I guess.

I was under the impression that we would be going over the list again after the initial vote so even if we push a film through now it doesn't mean it'll actually make the list right?

Gak... this is going to be worse than I thought. ::big grin::

Hang in there, Straker. We're doing 100 films, and in the process the other films will be looked at. There's no sense getting pissed off about films in the list you think are better than these -- simply because we haven't got to them yet.

I say this to hopefully put you in the most lucid state of mind in order to fully ENJOY this: you have to realise it is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE that every film our group of 17 people choose will be films you personally think should be in the top 100 films. Because that would just be your list. The reality is 75% of the films will not be what you'd appraise for 100 films. That's an accurate estimation, wouldn't you agree? This is an easychair exercise of fun when you do it with 17 other folks. ::cool::


Just to be clear, I didn't select either of those films. And I'm not saying they are worthy only because they are funny or quotable. I was referring to the expertise in comedy film - encompassing the camera angles/movements/compesition, lighting, actors body/facial movements, sets, costumes; story build, flow & execution, & character development.


Your specific description, or lack there of, has me curious... did you see Edward Sissorhands in it's entirety? I hope none of us neg films we haven't seen.

Edward Sissorhands
None of the films on my Top 20 List are merely personal favorites. I hope none of us makes that dismissive assumption of eachothers' picks, embracing diversity of appreciation instead. But let me start from not my opinion:

RottenTomatoes.com
Critics Rating: 91% (54 reviews), Audience: 91% (1,027,618 ratings)
Academy of Science Fiction, Fantasy & Horror Films: (Saturn)
Won: Best Fantasy Film
Won: Best Supporting Actor: Alan Arkin
Won: Best Actress: Winona Ryder
Nominated: Best Supporting Actress, Dianne Wiest
Nominated: Best Music, Danny Elfman
Nominated: Best Costumes
Hugo Awards:
Best Dramatic Presentation
Sant Jordi Awards (Spain)
Best Foreign Film
Best Foreign Actress: Winona Ryder
Grammy Awards
Nominated: Best Instrumental Composition Written for a Motion Picture
British Academy Film Awards
Won: Best Production Design
Won: Best Costume Design
Nominated: Best Special Visual Effects
Nominated: Makeup
Oscars
Nominated: Best Makeup
Golden Globes
Best Comedy Actor: Johnny Depp
New York Film Critics Circle Awards
Best Cinematographer: 3rd place

And my opinion... Edward Sissorhands is the best Romantic film of the last 25 years. That's Romantic, as in Romanticism the art form: intense emotion as an authentic source of aesthetic experience: apprehension, horror, awe, spontaneity, the exotic, passion and love.

Edward Sissorhands: created another world, dealt with conformity, the human tragedy of being different & society's enmity to it, the vulnerability of being an artist, alagories to Frankenstein, Creation, the Christ, etc. Elite technical artistry in cinematography, direction and music; beautiful and deeply moving story.

Great points, Sculpt.

And I agree, this going to be worse than I thought. It's pretty bad when someone negative votes six well-respected films, simply because they're "not Top 100 for me." (Note, I'm not referring to Straker.)

I'm pretty sure I'm out on this one.

I think what Straker is saying here is 100 is a limited number when there are actually so many deserving candidates out there in considering not only American but world cinema as a whole. Any ardent movie fan may get frustrated while be a part of such wonderful & massive project & when he or she sees some 'great' movies have initially started to filling the spots in final/top 100 when there's still a big number of 'greater or greatest' movies (& which is also more than hundreds) are still left/waiting for consideration; moreover, plenty of them even failed to get a single nomination in the initial voting process.

But yeah...I agree with you, Sculpt that it's actually or literally impossible to satisfy everyone while we're conducting this kind of compilation with a range of people with different tastes in movies. There's not a single "Top/Best..." movie list ever created that made everyone happy, IMO.

Btw, have you guys played on flickchart? Ranking your own movie list by choosing between a choice of 2... it's a great time-killer! ::big grin::

Before everyone jumps ship, let's just take a tally for the 13 films in debate right now.

Objections have come from:

Back To The Future - 3 (roshiq, Straker)
Die Hard - 3 (roshiq, Straker)
Dog Day Afternoon - 3 (realdealblues)
Edward Scissorhands - 3 (roshiq, realdealblues, Straker)
Gone With The Wind - 3 (roshiq)
It's a Wonderful Life - 3 (roshiq)
Monty Python & The Holy Grail - 3 (The Villain)
Pulp Fiction - 3 (roshiq, realdealblues)
Saving Private Ryan - 3 (realdealblues)
The Empire Strikes Back - 3 (roshiq)
The Terminator - 3 (roshiq, realdealblues, Straker)
Titanic - 3 (roshiq, Straker)
Twelve Monkeys - 3 (realdealblues, Straker)

Approval for all films: Sculpt, Giganticface, metternich1815.

Since all other methods seem to be failing and we are running in circles, let me try my "easy-peasy" elimination method here...

All films have 3 nominations each, and all see approval from 3 members, so that's SIX per film. Now, taking objections into account, we are left with:

Back To The Future - 4
Die Hard - 4
Dog Day Afternoon - 5
Edward Scissorhands - 3
Gone With The Wind - 5
It's a Wonderful Life - 5
Monty Python & The Holy Grail - 5
Pulp Fiction - 4
Saving Private Ryan - 5
The Empire Strikes Back - 5
The Terminator - 3
Titanic - 4
Twelve Monkeys - 4


So, filtering further, we have SIX more films with at least 5 overall thumbs-ups, so I am moving them into the final compilation. That will take our overall tally to 20.

We are left with SEVEN films with 4 or less overall thumbs-ups, so I am moving them into the backburner with the other TWO films from the previous set (Matrix & Once Upon A Time In The West) for debate later.

We are still left with 80 spots to fill, from the 2-nominations and single nominations section. And of course, we have 25 Honorable Mention spots up for grabs as well. So that's 105 spots left to fill, from a residual list of 208 films.

Pretty good ratio, don't you all agree?

So the ones who move on to the final list are - Dog Day Afternoon, Gone With The Wind, It's A Wonderful Life, Monty Python & The Holy Grail, Saving Private Ryan and The Empire Strikes Back.

Films moved to the backburner are - Back To The Future, Die Hard, Edward Scissorhands, Pulp Fiction, The Terminator, Titanic and Twelve Monkeys.

We shall go through the films with 2 nominations later today.

hehehe...so I'm the one with highest number of objections::embarrassment::

Anyway, I'm good with V's final selections above, glad DDA made it to the Top 100. Let's move on...::cool::

So, someone isn't allowed to disagree with something just because it's well-respected?

I disagreed with George W. Bush's Policies even though he was President of the United States and well respected by lots of other people. Are you saying I should have voted for him anyway, even though many of his ideals went against everything I held as being "good criteria" as a leader?

Come on...

I realize I'm in the minority on most things and that's fine. I disagree with many of AFI's top movie picks. I disagree with Roger Ebert all the time. Who cares?

I didn't get any sense of emotion from Saving Private Ryan, I thought it was boring and dull and overrated. I probably won't ever watch it again. Travis obviously felt it was an emotional story and enjoyed it. Good for him. Neither of us are alone in our beliefs and I don't think any differently about Travis. We just disagree on what we saw in the movie. So what? That's what makes the world go round and helps give it it's diversity. Different strokes for different folks.

V says the movie is in. I'm not taking my ball and going home. Whatever makes it in, makes it in. I still get to express my opinion, as do you, and Sculpt and Straker and Roshiq and anyone else who wants to vote on an open forum. The majority is going to rule in the end anyway.

Exactly. The whole point of this is to create conversation and debate. Were all going to argue over our choices. I don't care if someone neg votes a movie I think belongs in but I'm also going to argue my point for the movie and I'm not gonna get upset if people disagree with me or my movie doesn't get in. As long as nobody's being insulting and offensive There's no reason for anyone to get upset.

See...still friends ::big grin::

And definitely reiterate the insulting and offensive. Most of us are sarcastic and half joking with our quips, but there's never any reason to be deliberately nasty or insulting to someone.

Continue on when ready V...

These are the kind of discussions I like to see. Well thought-out, mature, and intelligent.

Makes me wish I was good at expressing myself via the written word.

Nah, sorry man. I knew that would get misinterpreted. My bad.

All I meant was that I don't think a film should get a negative vote just because it's not in *your* top 100, which is basically the only reason you gave. It should get a negative vote if it's clearly undeserving, and hopefully you can provide some reasoning behind the negative vote.

Believe me, its not about wanting things all my own way, I have been involved in enough of these processes to realise that if you get one little victory against the swathe of myopic thought you can consider it a success. I'm just bored of ragging on people's favourite movies and sounding like a pretentious dick. I cant really muster up much but a general sense of apathy right now.



@Sculpt: Of course I've seen Edward Scissorhands....