no offense, i use to go to yahoo atheist v christians all the time, because i like to debate this as well. and believe m, compared to them, you're being very repectful

Well, the difference here is that god supposedly knows with divine certainty. Which is different than the knowledge my friend has. Take these two scenarios:

Scenario 1:

You are born, you go through life, then one day as you are crossing the street you get hit by a car and die.

Scenario 2:

You are born, you go through life, then one day you get a message from god in a fortune cookie that says: "You will be hit by a car and die tomorrow while you are crossing the street."
You do everything you can to avoid the street. You stay home, watch TV ... then you fall asleep. You wake up in the middle of the road (sleepwalking?? You've never done that before!) and you get hit by a car and die.

The second scenario is almost the same as the first ... the only difference is you shared in god's knowledge for a brief time. But you were still unable to change your fate. (Assuming that god never lies, and is never wrong). If god knows your life, from beginning to end, then you are destined to live that life ... you cannot change it. The fact that you are ignorant of what god knows gives you the illusion that you have free will. But if you had god's knowledge of ONLY your life, that illusion would disappear. You would go through your life, knowing everything that would happen, being completely unable to change any of it.

I disagree. EVERYONE and EVERYTHING has a meaning for life. I can't say what that meaning is but they do have it. If they are ment to die, they should. If I baby died inside a mother, it still had a reason for those days of being there. It the killer killed the child, then that was ment to happen. Even though it may be hard for some to accept the fact that a death of a child or love one (or anyone/any thing) was ment to happen, it was. Nothing just happens. Nothing was a mistake. Everyting that happens was ment to happen.

Good point here. Suppose there is a purpose for everything, even the sufferring of infants. Maybe to teach us to love more? Who knows. I'll have to think about this some more.

Actually, I do disagree. Here's why...

I believe that we do have free will. (Even with an omniscient God.) To take that away, even if it is something like what you used in your example, would be you inflicting your will on to others, which is a step backwards, in my opinion. You would be removing something that you don't agree with, and while it is admittedly something that very few people actually do agree with, it is still not for you to decide. Free will, my friend, free will.

How about if I don't agree with abortion. (Which is also, IMO, the killing of a child.) I could just implant everyone's brain and say no more abortion's for anyone. Would that be right for me to do? No. It's not up to me to decide what's best for everyone else, it's up to them to decide for themselves.

Okay. I concede that point. BUT: If I was god, I wouldn't give men nipples! And I wouldn't give them an appendix. That thing does nothing but get infected and threaten people's lives. :)

I like this God.

Let me paraphrase what I get out of this... "If you had God's knowledge, then you would know your course of predestination."

Well, that's partially true. If you had God's view of the universe and complete absense of time, then yes, you would be able to see how things will end up for you, but once again, it will only be because you are seeing all of time at once.

Yes, you would know your course of predestination AND would be unable to change it. The difference, when it comes to free will, lies in what you know and what you don't know. It wouldn't feel like free will if you had god's knowledge of your life. But you don't, so it feels like you have the power of choice. But the idea is that the knoweldge is there! Only, you don't have it. God does. Here's the thing:

You say: "I have free will. Just because God knows the choices I will make, does not mean I still do not have the choice. Choice = free will."

I say: "You don't have free will. Because god knows the choices you will make, they aren't really choices at all ... you just think they are."

And I'm afraid we may have to leave it at that.

Alrighty y'all...

Good conversation/debate! But I'm tired, so I'm going to bed now.


P.S. LOL @ erasing men's nipples. Who needs 'em?

Well ... some guys like to pierce them. Go fig. Yes, great conversation. Thank you all! My daughter woke up with a nightmare in the middle of it, so now I need to put her back to bed. Good night!

I say: We do have free will because we get to make our own decisions. God knows what we will choose because he can see all of time at once.

You say: Because God can see all of time at once and thereby knows our decisions, we really have no control over them and thereby, we have no free will, only a predestined course of actions.

I say: Just because God knows what we will choose doesn't make the decisions any less our own. He can just see the future as the present and is aware of what we will decide.

You say: If he knows what we will decide, then there is no free will.

I say: It's still free will because the decisions we make belong to us. He just sees the end result.

But, you're right, we should leave it at that. We could go around in circles all night pondering the mysteries of the universe, but I'm tired.

I know somebody out there is going to hate me for reviving this, but it is very interesting. And I Still applaud everyone for keeping it civil.

I have a quick question. If we accept that A. God exists and B. People have free will and C. God NEVER makes a mistake (which, personally, I think all of you put way too much pressure on the guy....if he is there.) How do we get Kind god/Wrathful god? If he knows we are going to make mistakes, knows that we will turn into what we have, why did Sodom and Gammora get destroyed?

He seemed awfully pissed off then, but he knew it was coming, he KNEW it wouldnt change. So why the anger? Also, if we accept the great Deluge as fact (i would like to see proof. i have seen evidence in PART of the world (i watch a Lot of Discovery channel), but certainly nothing world wide), why did God kill off all those people? He knew what decisions they would make, and how they would turn out, but was angry with them none the less.


maybe i am jumping to conclusions here, but the only reason i could see for someone getting angry over something like that, would be if they thought the people might change, or behave differently, but they didnt. However, that is naiveté, which is a flaw. Technically. And God is supposedly flawless.

Which brings up another point. Perhaps if there is a god "he" is near-omniscient, and near-omnipotent, but not quite. Maybe religious folks have a complex like a lot of kids do:

Dad is perfect, dad can do no wrong, dad could kill a dragon with a toothpick because he took karate once when he was a kid.

When in Reality, Dad can do a whole shitload of things, but dad isnt 100% infallible. He yelled at mom once, spanked you because you knocked over the paint can, and yelled at the dog for crapping in the yard, but he still loves you, he still works hard for you, and he would still do anything in his power for you.

Just a layman's theory, feel free to disagree, but even though i dont believe in him, that is how i think he would be if he turned out to be.

Actually, the guy who wrote "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People" finally ended up conceding this point. Eventually, his argument brought him to the revelation that god could not be perfect (i.e. "omnibenevolent, omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient".) A god that is all good, and all powerful, would not allow evil in the world. And yet, evil is. He could allow it, and choose to do nothing about it ... but then he is not omnibenevolent (in the true sense of the word), or maybe he doesn't allow it, but cannot do anything about it (in which case, he is not omnipotent).

And I agree with your point on the Good God/Wrathful God. I bring this up in these discussions as well. If we are talking about the Christian God, read Genesis 6:5-7.

6 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."
7 "And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; or it repenteth me that I have made them."

Now, why would god feel regret that he made man, particularly if he KNEW that man would turn out this way? And, after he destroys man, he comes to the realization that he may have made a mistake and acted out of anger. Read Genesis 8:21.

8 "And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every living thing, as I have done."

Here he says: "Oooo ... I shouldn't have done that. Man is evil by nature, and will not change no matter how many times I wipe him out. Well ... I don't do it again. And here's a rainbow to prove it." The rainbow he puts up a little later.

So, God feels regret TWICE! And admits to making a mistake. He can't be perfect. But, I still have a problem with him allowing some the evil he allows. It's like, if I made a robot, KNOWING that the robot would go on a murderous rampage as soon as I was done, but I made it anyway ... and then sent the robot to hell (or, utterly destroyed it because it did what I knew it would do when I made it) ... seems a little off-kilter. I should never have made the thing in the first place. If god knew I was going to hell before I was even born ... then spare me the sufferring and don't let me be born! Save us all the trouble. I would do that for a child I cared about.

And all of this comes back to one thing:

We "know" this from the Bible, the Bibkle was written by man, the same type of men who say "we can not know the mind of God", yet still want us to accept that they know at least more than we do....:rolleyes:

As far as the flood goes ... Have you ever read "The Epic of Gilgamesh"? It is an epic poem that predates the Bible. In fact, it is the oldest work of literature that we have. In it, there is a flood myth that is VERY similar to the one detailed in the Bible. So, I'm beginning to think that there just may have been a flood at some point back then.

I watched something on the Discovery Channel once that pointed to an area around (I think) the dead sea, where they found evidence that it was once MUCH deeper, but there was a crack in the geologic dike that held back the water, and that the sea emptied in a massive "dam breaking". According to their studies, it would have had a massive impact on the entire region, which just so happens to be the part of the world that all of these tales come from.

If i can find moreinfo, i will post it. it was a very interesting parallel between the a "Bible story" and an actual event.

It also goes a long way to show how things can get blown up in the telling. But then again, if to you, the middle east is the world, and it gets flooded, then technically, the world was flooded.

If china was unaffected, it wouldnt matter, because you didnt even know it existed.

o_0

I don't know what that was, but it wasn't an argument. It was just you saying, "No, didn't happen that way, sorry".

Yeah, i enjoy people who make "absolute" statements about thuings they couldnt possibly know....

Yeah, that whole thing took place at like ... 3am this morning. It was horrible. I can't stand arguing with people who strut about thinking the knowledge they made up is real. Good thing I had the sources handy.

If that is the case, why didn't God just get rid of Satan? Why does he let him exist at all, if he is truly good and pure? Why let something exist that you KNOW is going to cause pain and sufferring?

Here is my concessionarry "layman's theory". It lets god exist, but allows for fallability. Sorry, Pobody's Nerfect, as the mug says.

I think it's crazy how religious people are like atheists when it comes to science. They are quick to say that scientific explanations are myths ... despite the obvious piles of evidence. Yet, they believe whole-heartedly in something that has no evidence at all. It's like --- Hello? Did you get your definitions for "truth" and "myth" completely mixed up?

I know, I used to be Christian.. for six months. Mainly, I just wanted a chance to figure out what it was really all about. I really respect truly religious people, for they are some of the nicest and most moral people in the world. It's the ones that abuse it that you have to worry about.

Logic and proof are faith's enemies, and many (if not most) people with faith will agree with this. Faith erradicates the need for proof, which then becomes a burden that is swept aside.

Ned Flander put it best:
"Science is liek a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you the ending."

And Homer:
"Facts, Schmacts... Facts can be used to prove anything that is even remotely true...."

Here's another theory of mine that I actually kind of stole from Anne Rice's "Memnoch The Devil".

Basically, God is not this all-powerful being that we imagine him to be. He is another life form, beyond what we can perceive because of our physical and mental limitations. He is using the physical Universe (the one we know) as a laboratory experiment. He is trying to figure out how he came to exist. He is watching us evolve and grow, watching for the next evolutionary step that allows us to, for example, use telepathy or telekinesis or things of that nature. He is convinced that, at one point, he was actually a physical being at one point, and that he evolved into what he is today.

Trippy, huh? But it would make a hell of a lot more sense than current religious views.

It's funny, for truly good religious people, I have always felt a little sad that such good people required a crutch.

The funny thing is, they usually feel the same way, sort of. Like I live life with no hope or anything. i have tons of hope, for reachable things, and some for unreachable. I still buy lottery tickets :D

Yeah, I hate having to explain to people that I am not depressed about my life ending. I like this explanation of life after death given by Socrates: "an eternal sleep, undisturbed even by dreams." Sounds pretty relaxing and comforting if you ask me. I would hate to have to spend eternity praising the Lord in heaven (I couldn't stand an hour of it on Sunday, growing up.) And, well ... Nobody wants to go to hell.

I started writing a story when i was 19 (I may finish it someday).

it starts at the beginning of Judgement Month. The time-tables got off a little, and there were too many people on Earth for the old "Doomsday" booking system to work, so it was going to take a month to process everyone.

The main character was Damien Triplesix, who had just recently found out he was the anti-christ.

All the people in the world were spereated int o 3 categories:

Those going to Heavan
Those going to Hell
Those going to Purgatory

Heaven was for good christians. When they ascended, they still got to do "good christian" things, like pray a lot and abstain from sex.
Purgatory was where the bad people went.

Hell, as according to hardcore "good" christians, was for everyone else. As lucifer explained it to Damien:
"Hell isnt a Punishment, it is for everyone who isnt christian. You dont honestly think we would punish Jews, Muslims and Athiests for being good people, but picking the wrong book, do you?"

All people were mmarked for their destinations. Hellbound grew horns, Heavenbound halos, and those going to purgatory turned black and white. There was much fighting caused by people who expected a halo, but got horns or b&w....

Sounds interesting. But Purgatory is actually like a temporary hell. Those people will end up going to heaven after they have suffered long enough in Purgatory. Speaking of which ... I need to go to my "Deathwatch" thread and put what I think happened to Y Company in that film.

That was the catch, they got it wrong :)

This is such an interesting thread.

I dont understand something though. So Hell isnt pits of fire and torture? If God isnt going to punish Jews and Muslims to eternal pain in hell, then what happens to them? And what happens to Atheists?

So many questions....

Well, in hell, you do all kinds of NON-christian things. Listen to loud music, drink, fool around, shoot at annoying little rat-dogs that yip all night....

oh no, wouldnt want to live like that for eternity!

I'd rather live my afterlife in a Hell like that than live my afterlife in a Heaven based on submission and servitude.

You people have a slightly warped vision of heaven and hell.

Once you are in heaven, it isn't like you do nothing but pray and serve God all day long. Heaven is the place where you are rewarded for the good life you lead while you are on Earth. You would experience an eternity of the most pleasurable feelings imaginable. (Picture your best orgasm only a couple million times greater pleasurable feelings.)

As for Hell, you don't get to smoke weed and drink 40's all day while screwing numerous hoes in Hell either. It is an eternity of the most painful agony you can imagine. (Actually, you probably can't imagine the suffering. It's inconceivable to us.)

Stingy is right about Purgatory. That is where you would end up if you lead a pretty good life, but died with some sins on your soul. (Not major sins, for those you would go to Hell.) In purgatory, you experience the same suffering as Hell, however it is temporary and eventually you will end up being admitted into Heaven.

Limbo was the place that the good souls who had died collected before Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, thereby allowing us to enter Heaven. Once Jesus died for the sins of man, those souls were admitted into Heaven.

Actually, we were discussing a story that Vodstok was writing.

I believe in both. Science is wonderful! It helps us to understand worldly things. What is the sun? Oh, it's a burning ball of gas. Where does rain come from? Ahh, condensation in the air. How come that fish at the bottom of the ocean has a light on it's head? Oh, that's evolution, oh okay.

I just happen to also believe that all of these wheels were set in motion by a being far greater than ourselves.

I do not believe that science has disproved the existance of God. (And I'm sure there's plenty of scientists out there trying to do it, too.) To believe in God, one must have faith. The faith to believe in something that they have never seen and that has never been proven to exist. It's a tough thing for a lot of people to do.

Since we were quoting the Bible earlier, I'll leave you with this quote...

After Jesus was crucified, he rose from the dead. Two of the apostles saw his empty tomb and ran back to tell the other apostles. One of the other apostles, Thomas, was completely skeptical and said that he wouldn't believe that Jesus had risen from the dead until he could put his finger through the nail holes in his hands and put his hand into the sword hole in his side. The next day, while the apostles were all having dinner in a locked room (They were being semi-persecuted for having associated with Jesus.) when out of nowhere, Jesus appeared. He spoke to Thomas and told him to go ahead and put his hands in his wounds. Thomas didn't even need to, he broke down and cried for doubting Jesus. Jesus told him...

"You believe because you have seen, but blessed are those who have not seen, yet still believe."

I know that. I read the thread. That was why I called it a 'slightly warped vision' and not flat out wrong. ;) I was just mentioning what Christianity believes.

i would say god looks like this