I just wanted the other side presented, and that wiki section refuted every point you made, with multiple sources.

Fair enough about presenting both sides. I'm not sure, however, that it could ever refute my personal experience watching the movie (i.e., the the trouble I had keeping track of, and caring about, the characters... the way I cringed at some of the dialog), and in some ways it supports my case of it being derivative by referencing critics' comparisons of the film to A Clockwork Orange and Lord of the Flies.

It's clearly an overwhelming set of positive recommendations though -- not all of which I would typically, blindly respect -- but overwhelming positive nonetheless, which also seems to reflect the opinion of many on this forum. Also, it speaks of the film relative to the horror genre a couple times, which makes me feel better. So it's all good. :)

Also, just to be clear, I did enjoy the film, but there were things about it that didn't impress me.


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I keep a database of all the films I watch, and just for fun, I looked up my data on Battle Royale. I was curious if remembering things wrong. Here's my data:

Watched: 2/8/2013
Genre: Action
Tags: adventure, survival, deadly game/ immoral reality tv
Rating: 7/10
Inaccessibility: 3/10

I'm wondering if I went a little low on the inaccessibility, but basically 3/10 means, "only mildly shocking." Also, it's really rare that I don't use the term "horror," either for the genre or for a tag. Anyway, that was just my impression. Maybe I should add "horror" to the tags now. 7/10 ain't bad though.

It mentioned Clockwork Orange as a film that stirred controversy about real-life violence, as BR did, so I hardly think you can call that being "derivitive." The Lord of the Flies reference was in regard to making you wonder about what you would do in a similar circumstance, not in terms of deriving any actual content from the earlier film.

If this is going to be the basis of citing a film as derivitive, we might as well label every film made in the past 80 years as "derivitive."

Yeah, I agree. That's a road I definitely wouldn't want to go down.

And okay, maybe "derivitive" was the wrong word. Hopefully, even though you disagree, you understand the point I'm trying to make though, without getting overly-semantic about terminology.

Well, words DO have meanings. :p

Touché. :D

Good debate.

We are still searching for the 24th finalised film for the 2000s.

3 films are leading the race right now - Final Destination, Little Otik and The Orphanage.

And we have 3 others hot on their heels as well - The Devil's Backbone, Battle Royale and Hard Candy.

http://www.horror.com/forum/showthre...57593&page=120

Final Destination is so far out of place in that list of six....

I disagree. I am surprised it did not already make the list. I actually consider it to be an excellent film not just a "fun" film. The premise was one of the most unique and was very well-executed, in my opinion. Additionally, the character development was quite good. Also, I believe the score complimented the film quite well. Definitely, a worthy addition to the list, in my opinion.

Completely agree. Unique concept but formulaic plot. Bad acting. Stereotypical characters. Not in the same league as the others in consideration.

Also, if we don't have at least one film from the New French Extremists in our list, at least as Honorable Mentions, I will have lost all faith... IMO it's an indication that personal taste is trumping the choosing of noteworthy happenings of the decade.

Inside
Martyrs
Haute Tension
Frontiers
Trouble Every Day
Ils
In My Skin
Irreversible

Any of these could be in the top 24 discussion, and I can think of another half dozen where a case could be made.

I'm not even bashing Final Destination, its one of those movies I would watch if it came on TV late at night and was already half way through. Its a fun bit of teen schlock, but seriously, there is some really quality just on the 6 front runners, let alone some of the movies that aren't being mentioned. I think Tony Todd's little cameo is kinda fun and good for a giggle, but if you actually want to critique it seriously, its a really shitty piece of writing.... They pull in a horror icon to crowbar in some exposition because the story just isn't sophisticated enough to fill the plot in any other way. The whole movie is filled with signposts and tired stereotypes.

I couldn't disagree more on Final Destination, but you did remind me that there is one other film I wanted to back: High Tension (Haute Tension).

I'll back High Tension too then. That actually might be the best choice for our purposes since it's more accessible than the rest. It demonstrates the influence the movement is having on mainstream horror, especially since Alexandre Aja went on to direct popular films The Hills Have Eyes and Piranha. It's a good example of the NFE's ability to take tried and true horror themes or formulas and turn them on their head (this one is Slasher of course). It's also a film that's ripe for discussion, however doing so here would surely spoil the ending, so I'll refrain (and hopefully everyone else will be careful about spoilers).

Added.

We are still on the lookout for our last film for the top 24. Once that is done, we can start working on the Honorable Mentions.

http://www.horror.com/forum/showthre...57593&page=120

I have to agree here. Several of these were in my original list. I guess I'll vote for Haute Tension, as it seems to have the best chance of getting in, though it's the least interesting film of the lot.

In case I hadn't mentioned, Little Otik (2000) full film is available to view for free on Youtube.com (in parts) http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9DAC66706DFAE2DF
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-q...8/s1600/17.jpg

While we're waiting on more input for #22, and while we're on the subject for one of these for HM, I did some research on all these films. From what I've read, "Inside" has a few steps on all the other films. Inside appears to be the one most considered for one of the best horror films of the decade, and completely representative of the new wave of French Horror, and highly rated by critics and audience. Also, I read there's various problems with the other films about making sense, at least within themselves, or otherwise having a worthwhile point. Inside reads as being rather straight forward (a crazy woman wants to steal a woman's unborn child).

Irreversible sounds the most interesting to me (shot in reverse chronological order). but I'm a bit apprehensive, as one reviewer wrote about the violent content leading to nothing more than 'nihilistic fate'. But that maybe inaccurate considering reading violent history in reverse doesn't equate with nihilism or fate.

My point being, High Tension reads as though it's basically about folks being killed by, and trying to evade, a psychotic killer; where the plot and characters are flat (& received 41% Critic RT Rating). Whereas Inside may be a better choice for us to support. (I'll be supporting Inside.)

I don't think Irreversible can even be considered. I suppose there is a 1 minute scene at the beginning that could be considered "horrific" and a 10 minute scene in the middle that could be considered "horrific" but the rest is 88 minutes of boring drama, and both scenes could easily be in any Crime/Drama movie made by Martin Scorsese.

I agree. Disturbing and graphic but not a horror movie

Just to be clear, I think mett's, NE's and my vote for Haute Tension put it in the running for the top 24, and aren't intended to be early votes for Honorable Mention.

If we can get two more votes for Haute Tension to potentially put it in the top 24, I'll be ready and willing to back several of the films currently in contention. Heck, I'll help with Battle Royale because I think it's a good fit for HM.

Whether for #22, or Honorable Mentions, don't you think Inside is a better choice? Seems to be the only one in the list with most acclaim & notoriety.

That depends. Personally, I do like Inside more than Haute Tension, but I also like Martyrs better than Inside. All three are loved by some, hated by others, and have achieved some level of notoriety, depending on who you ask. I like Haute Tension, and think it's a nice choice for this list for the reasons I've already stated, but any of them are good candidates for their own reasons. I'm glad to back any of them, and I've already backed Inside, so unless V lets me vote twice, I think that's all I can do. ;) If you choose to back Inside now, I suspect someone might match it to make it tied with Haute Tension.

Just a head's up, if you're making a decision on any of these films based purely on research, keep in mind that these films are all controversial to some degree, and not just for being explicit. Many of them redefine horror formulas is ways that horror fans may not like. Any film that stirs controversy or breaks the rules will cause a wide variance in opinion. I wouldn't trust any RT or IMDB ratings for any of these films, and I certainly wouldn't be overly influenced by any single reviewer's opinion. For instance, a horror fan may choose to watch Trouble Every Day hoping to see a fresh take on the vampire subgenre, but be utterly disappointed because not a single fang is to be found in the entire film. When I first watched In My Skin, my own preconception negatively influenced the experience. I was hoping for some cool body horror that might rival Cronenberg, and instead got a woman's psychological battle, seen through an arthouse lens. The second time I watched it, I was blown away.

What I love about this group of films is that, although they disrupt the tropes, they don't come across as pretentious, as if they're better than the classic concepts they're both drawing from and mutating in the process. They treat their predecessors with a great deal of respect, and don't attempt to hide or satirize their influences. I've read plenty of less-than-insightful reviews about how such-and-such a film is just a copy of some other film. (Frontier(s) / TCM is a common one.) Almost always, however, those reviewers are not looking close enough.

Running with the Trouble Every Day example, here's a quote I like from one particular review:

That reviewer is paying attention, and clearly so is director Claire Denis.



I agree this film is less "horror" than the rest, and it's also the the one I'd be least excited to back based on its subject matter. However, to me, that entire first scene -- not just the final 1 minute of it -- is horror. It's a brilliant conveyance of confusion, pending doom and uncontrollable bloodlust by Gaspar Noe, heavily driven by the swirling camerawork and throbbing sound design. It's true that the majority of the film is dramatic setup, although with the story told in reverse, the "setup" ends up playing more like a slow reveal. However, since all of those scenes directly reference those two disturbing scenes, IMO, it all "counts." That's the whole movie. :) This film is definitely experimental, so it will never fit cleanly into the boundaries of any genre. It's basically a unique, brutal arthouse film.

I'll vote for Inside and take back my vote for Haute Tension. Inside is a better film.

Done.

We are still in the hunt for our 24th finalist.

http://www.horror.com/forum/showthre...57593&page=120

I'll back The Devils Backbone

Added.

The Devil's Backbone stakes a claim for that 24th spot as well, along with Final Destination, Little Otik and The Orphanage. All 4 films have 4 backings each.

http://www.horror.com/forum/showthre...57593&page=120

Which one will break away and join Ginger Snaps at the top of the list? Let's wait and see.

Little Otik.

Done.

http://www.horror.com/forum/showthre...57593&page=120

All/majority in agreement?

Agreed.....

Sounds good to me.

Fine with me.

Sounds good.

Fine with me. :cool:


I'll add honourable mention backings to;

Inside
Hard Candy

and also remind people not to forget about some of the quality horror flicks that are going to miss out, like; Pulse (Kairo) and Thirst (Bakjwi) actually really surprised the latter hasn't received more support if I'm honest.

agreed

....

Say, Gigan, let me say, I not only enjoyed reading your insight into the films, genre and general reviewer idiosyncrasies, I think you write well too. IMO has good flow, subtle humorous references, and conceptually succinct use of adjectives, as here:

"For instance, a horror fan may choose to watch Trouble Every Day hoping to see a fresh take on the vampire subgenre, but be utterly disappointed because not a single fang is to be found in the entire film. When I first watched In My Skin, my own preconception negatively influenced the experience. I was hoping for some cool body horror that might rival Cronenberg, and instead got a woman's psychological battle, seen through an arthouse lens.For instance, a horror fan may choose to watch Trouble Every Day hoping to see a fresh take on the vampire subgenre, but be utterly disappointed because not a single fang is to be found in the entire film. When I first watched In My Skin, my own preconception negatively influenced the experience. I was hoping for some cool body horror that might rival Cronenberg, and instead got a woman's psychological battle, seen through an arthouse lens."

Okay, majority are in favor so the top 24 are sealed.

The front runners for the Honorable Mentions are highlighted in BOLD at the top under their separate section. In addition, those films with 2 backings have been underlined as well.

http://www.horror.com/forum/showthre...57593&page=120

We have SIX films with most backings for our Honorable Mentions. Do we go with them by default, or is there more scope for debate?

Have your say. If the majority agrees, the SIX in bold will be passed.

I'm fine with the 6 (in bold & below) that have the most votes. All of these have a lot of support. I might like to change-out a few, but I know there aren't votes for it.

Battle Royale (2000)
Final Destination (2000)
The Orphanage (2007)
The Devil's Backbone (2001)
Hard Candy (2005)
Inside aka À l'intérieur (2007)

NOTE: But if we vote not to go with the 6 leading films, than I'm not backing all of these films.

.

Pulse (Kairo)
Mum and Dad - a really savage British horror film and satire on family life. The Christmas scene pushes things way over the top.
Battle Royale
Hard Candy
Ils
Frontier(s)

Battle Royale
The Orphanage
The Devils Backbone
Hard Candy
Inside
Julia's Eyes

I'm fine with those six.

I'm backing The Host.... Didn't even realise it hadn't already made the cut, massive over sight, at least on my part. Made my original list with ease, awesome movie and really should be recognised on our list. Great group of characters with a family driven story that is rare to see these days. Action packed entertainment pretty much from the get go. Sorry I didn't get behind this movie sooner and really hoping it can make a late surge and knock Final Destination out of the running. :cool: