When will Hillary Clinton remove herself from the public eye?

We can only hope that it will be soon. Unfortunately, I see her running for President some day, (If she wins, kill me please.) so I suppose we are stuck with her for a minimum of 4 years.

(in tune to santa clause is coming to town)

you beter watch out

i think she is a guy

im not really sure

but something ain't right

hilary clinton is coming to town

aww but I love the Clintons. I just want a female president in my lifetime. Hilary will do.

Oh dear god NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!! !!!!!!!!!!!

The country would surely cease to exist as we know it if she was president....

Damn it! I KNEW this was going to turn into a philosophical debate on the existence of god! I just knew it! And I wanted to participate, too!

Fortunately, the other atheists in here pretty much covered it. I still want to add my two cents, nonetheless.

"Where did the Earth come from?" The answer given by Ege was quite good. The earth was actually a ball of molten magma shortly after the formation of the sun, and according to astronomers, the moon was formed when a hurtling object hit the Earth and tore away a chunk. The magma cooled, the surface hardened and released gasses that formed our atmosphere. And take it from there, because this is beside the point. Bwind wants to know where the matter came from.

I am comfortable in saying "I don't know." I am also more comfortable in believing that matter has always been, than that some sentient being created it. Before the age of reason and the scientific revolution, people habitually ascribed answers to the unknown by chalking it up to god or gods. Rain is caused by god. Earthquakes are caused by god. That erupting volcano is caused by god. People need answers, and this was an easy way to get them. In this age, people are STILL attributing the unknown to god. The "unknown", in this day and age, being: "What happened AT THE VERY BEGINNING OF EVERYTHING?" and "What happens after death?" Science has pretty much answered everything else, so these things are where many people run to in defense of god.

In my studies of religion, I've noticed this trend: As religions were born, they became more people-friendly. People would follow whichever religion gave them the most hope. As a species, we are the only animals on this planet that realize our own mortality, and at the same time, possess that evolutionary desire to survive. We want to survive and live, but we know we are going to die. Hence, over time, we've developed these mythologies to help us cope with this gigantic conflict. For example: for a long time, Hinduism was the thing. We never die! We are just reincarnated over and over again, our new forms depending on our karma. But, people were not satisfied with that ... they wanted something to escape this cycle of death and rebirth ... and so, when Christianity came along with it's idea of "Paradise for eternity", it became quite popular (except, of course, with the powerful people of the currently established religions). That is a total example, and very cut-and-dried for the sake of brevity. My point: If cats knew they were going to die (in a way other than instinct), I'm quite sure you would see little shrines to some "Great Cat in the Sky" in litter boxes around the world. And what's better than Paradise for eternity? How about SEX for eternity!!! And ultimate, Godlike power!!! (Oh ... well, that's actually the Mormons. A very new religion, and one that still follows my pattern of "give the people what they want").

Now for the atheists: How do you know what is right and what is wrong? Who's to say morality is nothing more than individual opinion, and nobody's ideas of morality are more right or wrong than another's? (I actually spent the entire summer arguing this idea with an "Ethical monotheist" last year. It's a tough question to answer, if you take God out of the equation.)

As for the rock thing, it's still a bogus answer.

"Can God create a rock too large for him to lift?"

"Yes."

"Then God is not all powerful."

"But a millisecond later, he would be able to lift it if he wanted to."

"Then God is not all powerful. For a millisecond, he was too weak to lift the rock. For a millisecond, the rock was greater than god."

You said that all so well Stingy. I agree with everything you said :)

I just realized what the answer to the rock question was as given by Bwind: In essence, Bwind says that God can create a rock too heavy for him to lift if he temporarily limits his power.

But this answer, too, doesn't make a lot of sense. God has to temporarily limit his power in order to do something that he was UNABLE to do when he was all-powerful? That sounds quite shaky. What if we rephrase the question this way:

"Can god create a rock too heavy for him to lift WITHOUT limiting his own power?"

"No."

"Then god is not all-powerful."

The question was formulated, as I've said, to show that an all-powerful being cannot exist. It's a logical contradiction ... like a square circle. You dodged the answer by changing the nature of god ... by eliminating his omnipotence. Sure, he can do it ONLY IF he isn't all-powerful. But, that's not what the question proves. The question proves that there can be nothing that is all-powerful, or limitless.

i am satan.

therefore, satan looks like me

That explains your allergic reaction to sunlight.

ya you people are correct, and what about the jews? o boy.
and the big bang is a unproven myth and always will be, sorry to say, but if the universe began as they say, there would multiple "centres" (for the lack of a better word,) not just one. the one thing atheist often leave out when describbing either " the big bang' , which is now called the big expansion by some. (another thing the big bang theorist have been proved wrong about). or evolution. is the word 'THEORY" . because thats all they are. theories. But scienctist will always preach what they, think might have happen as a fact. rather than a theory. like the how the moon came to be. they don't know. because they have never witnessed a moon being formed or caught in a planets gravitaional pull. So they just theorieze and people will take that as matter of fact.and as far as the moon being formed because something big slammed into earth while it was a big ball of magma. didn't happen sorry.

can god create a rocl to heavy for him to lift? yes.
"DID" god create a rock to heavy for him to lift? no so he keeps his all powerful title

and as for zwoti saying that people only believe in god, out of fear of death, well thats wrong as well. i wasn't allways a believer in god. and death held no fear for me( not saying i didnt care if ilived or died, but im just saying i accepted it as a natural thing that will happen to us all) and it wasn't fear of dying that made me turn to god either. and as far as humans being the only animal on earth. that knows its gonna die one day is false test have proven elephants are also aware that one day they will dieand as for his claim that we chose god because we get to live for enternity in perfect shape is also worng( probably ) because if as he /she claims he/she has studied religion, then he would know that noone knows what heaven is like.

Okay. First of all, a scientific "Theory" is different than the layman's "theory." In the language of science, a "Theory" is about as close to fact as you can get. An "hypothesis" (which is similar to the layman's term 'theory') is tested over and over and over again. When enough tests have been completed (and I mean MANY tests), and the results remain consistent with the hypothesis, only then does it become a scientific "Theory". Take the "Atomic Theory" as an example. A scientific theory isn't just a guess.

As far as the moon thing goes, here is a quote from my Astronomy text from college.

"Today, many astronomers favor a hybrid of the capture and fission themes. This idea -- often called the impacttheory -- postulates a collision by a large, Mars-sized object with a youthful and molten Earth. Such collisions may have been quite frequent in the early solar system (see Chapter 15). The collision presumed by the impact theory would have been more a glancing blow than a direct impact. The matter dislodged from our planet then assembled to form the Moon.
Computer simulations of such a catastrophic event show that most of the bits and pieces of splattered Earth could have coalesced into a stable orbit. Figure 8.27 shows some of the stages of one such simulation. If the Earth had already formed an iron core by the time the collision occurred, the Moon would indeed have ended up with a composition similar to the Earth's mantle. During the collision, any iron core in the impacting object itself would have been left behind in Earth, eventually to become part of the Earth's core. Thus both the Moon's overall similarity to that of the Earth's mantle and its lack of a dense central core are naturally explained. Over the past decade, planetary scientists have come to realize that collisions such as this probably played very important roles in the formation of all terrestrial planets".

That is from the text "Astronomy Today 2nd Edition" by Eric Chaisson and Steve McMillan (both of which hold doctorates in astronomy and astrophysics from Harvard.) Published by Prentice Hall in 1997 (ISBN 0-13-712382-5). Pages 189-190.

Where is this test that PROVED elephants know that one day they will die? I mean "know" in the sense that human beings know. Not in some instinctual level. I gave you my source for the Moon thing, now you give yours. As far as heaven goes ... no. I don't know what it is like. I am drawing conclusions from the Bible. Eden was supposed to be heaven on earth, a nirvana, a paradise. True, I don't know if everything is perfect in heaven. And it probably isn't, seeing as god couldn't even get earth right.

He got Earth right. It was our free will that fucked us.

See, that's another thing. You use "free will". Of course, you can't say that you have "free will" if you also believe that god is omniscient. Because if god knows everything, your free will is out the window.

As far as getting earth right ... ummm ... I dunno. I mean, you say you look out the window and see proof of god in the trees, flowers, clouds, etc. That's all well and good. I look out the window and think: "If I was all-powerful, I could come up with something better than this."

no there is no difference between a scientific therot and a laymans theory, well the onlny diff being is that the layman is the only one with enough crediblity t oadmitt that he doesn't know what it is his theory is about and the scientist won't. or is just too arogant toadmitt that he could be, which in a lot of casesthey are.

i shall look for it, and post it. and how do you know god didn't get the earth the way he wanted it? hmmm?

Okay, here's another quote. This time from a Biology text.

"Theory: A testable explanation of a broad range of related phenomena. In modern science, only explanations that have been extensively tested and can be relied upon with a very high degree of confidence are accorded the status of theory."

This is different than the dictionary term:

"the-o-ry n., pl. -ries: 1. a. Systematically organized knowledge applicable in a relatively wide variety of circumstances, esp. a system of assumptions, accepted principles, and rules of procedure devised to analyze, predict, or otherwise explain the nature or behavior of a specified set of phenomena. b. Such knowledge or such a system of distinguished from experiment or practice. 2. Abstract reasoning; speculation. 3. An assumption or guess based on limited information or knowledge."

You are confusing the term as I use it in the first quote with the term in ascribed definition 3 in the second quote.

how does god being "all-knowing" which is what omniscient means, Take away our freewill? yes he knows wha twe are about we to do, but does he stop us? no, thats why we have freewill. it would only be when he interfied and stopped us from doing something is when we lose our freewill. and 2. you saying that, you could do a better job, of you was all powerfull, then that isn't a argument as to why there isn't a god . its a argument as to why you don't like god
o and p.s
i seriously doubt you could do a better job than god. i mean, you're always complaing about how bad movies are these days. and you can't fix that, even though you could fix that little problem.
if you had the talent. (maybe thats another thing you hate or don't believe in god???????)

Maybe he did get it the way he wanted. All I'm saying is that if I had god's power, I could do a lot better.

It is quite possible to believe in God without believing in predestination. God gave man free will. That means we can do as we like. God, being omnipotent, knows/always knew/always will know what we would end up deciding because to him, time does not exist. He sees the dawn of man, the end of time and everything in between in the very same blink of an eye.

Right now I could type an 'X' or a 'Y' in the next line down. I can choose either one I want because I have free will. God knows what I will wind up choosing with my own free will because he sees all of time at once because to an omnipotent being, time does not exist.

'Z'.

Ooops, with my own free will, I chose to put down a letter that was not even one of the options. You know what? God knew that's what I would do, but it was still my choice what letter to type.


As for you thinking you could create a better world... Well, I would say that's a bit blasphemous, but since you are atheist, that probably wouldn't matter to you. So let me jusy ask how your world would be better.

still don't see the word "fact", just a lot of assuptions, predictions, reasonings and speculation. so really really all that says is that we think this is right, but we're aren't certain.

God is perfection itself. God makes no mistakes. As for Lucifer, it would be quite natural to assume that a spirit being so grossly evil would also look evil. The popular perceptions of Satan are usually either that of a sinister-looking individual in all-black clothing, or a comic character in a red suit with horns and a pitchfork, but The Bible describes Satan with "beauty" and "splendor." Satan appears righteous:

"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is not strange if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness." (2 Corinthians 11:13-15 RSV)

There is much written in the Bible about Satan's change of behavior, but nothing about any change in appearance. He is the ultimate evil, and yet he appears attractive and righteous. The references to him as a "snake" or "serpent" refer more to his sneaking, slithering, underhanded personality than his actual visual appearance.

There, this should answer your question. And do tell me if it does.

Man, if god knows all then he knew before you were born whether or not you were going to heaven or hell. And there is nothing you could do to change that. It's like, your entire life is written out for you in god's mind ... and you're just going through the motions like an automaton. You THINK you have free will, because you can't predict your future. But, if god told you everything you would do from here on out ... you would feel the loss of freedom then. The only difference is that YOU don't know. But god still does.

And I don't understand that last thing you said ... I couldn't do a better job than god because I can't fix the problem of all the terrible movies being made? No, I can't. Even if I made GREAT movies, people would still make terrible ones. Unless, I had god's power.

And I think you'll find that many members here believe I have enough talent to write a cheap horror film.

Here's my point on the "god's power" thing. If I was omnibenevolent (all good), and omnipotent, and cared about my creation (people), ONE thing I would change would be the needless sufferring of innocent people. I understand that people do bad things to other people, and it is their choice to do those things. But, I would at least make it so that they couldn't do those things to babies. I would put something in everyone's brains that made it painfully repulsive to even think about leaving an infant in a dumpster to die. But, that's just one thing. As Robert DeNiro said on "Inside the Actor's Studio" -- "If God exists, he has a lot of explaining to do."

you are so much better at explaining yourself than i am.

I didn't say that scientific theory was "fact". I said it is "about as close to fact as you can get." This assumes that it is not actually a fact.

just because god knows what i am going to do, doesn't mean he controls what i am going to do. read bwinds post, he/she explains it a lot better than ido.

ill tell ya as soon as i find a mirror

you're absolutly correct. ( well the bible is lol ) one of the reasons satan is the ultimate evil because of his beauty and splendor.

So, if you were God, you would take away free will by putting something in our brains to control our actions?

No offense, but to me that doesn't sound like you'd be doing a better job.

Okay, I read Bwind's post. I still say the same thing. God doesn't have to control you to take away your free will. He simply needs to know what you are going to do. Bwind typed the letter "Z". What if god told him beforehand that he was going to type the letter "Z". He wouldn't be able to stop it. He would HAVE to type the letter "Z"! But, God didn't control him. He just told him what he was going to do. Because god knows what he will do, he has no choice but to do what is in god's mind. No choice = no free will. He THOUGHT he had free will to type the letter "Z". But that was just an illusion. He was destined to type the letter "Z" since the day he was born. He could not have changed that.

What difference would it make? Nobody has free will anyway! (At least, not with an omniscient god). And it seems to me that taking away the free will of a sadistic killer to spare the life of a child IS better. Or, do you disagree?

No, no you couldn't. No one could. God IS perfection. God knows everything. From the smallest little secret to the biggest darkest secret. He knows the past, future, and present. Although some may think God made a mistake with the planet or something, it was NOT him. It was Satan. The wicked beast. He got some of the foolish ones and turned them bad. They got overwelmed with greed and selfishness. And God can't just stop it himself, it everything was gave to you you too will become selfish. He does stop it but not by himself. It is his believers that will help stop it. And you may not believe it but God did stop it. You may think that it was only those believers who stopped it but God is the one who got in those believes hearts and mad ethem stop it. But now days greed is overwelming everyone. The Bible even says that one day the world will end. And you shouldn't be scared of death, unless you know that you have commited horrible sins and will be sent to hell. Those who haven't commited sin and have a pure heart will be sent to heaven. They shouldn't dear death. In heaven you are never sad. Always ahppy. Never bored and never feel pain.

but thats the whole point god didn't tell him to type z,
example. if you was sitting by the comp with a friend, and you told him you was going to type the letter z. And you did. Did your friend make you type that letter? he had full knowledge that you was going to. he knew all along that you was gonna type the letter z, but he still didn't make you type the letter z. you did.

By the way, I hope nobody is taking offense here. I really like to debate this topic, and I learn a lot each time I do. If I come across as aggressive, or asshole-ish, please forgive me. That's just the debate style I use.

wtf are yans talking about

The thing is that God didn't tell me to. I didn't talk to him tonight. I picked what letter to type. Just because he knew what letter I would pick doesn't mean he influenced my decision in any way, he simply knew what I would choose with my free will.

God does know who will end up in heaven and who will end up in hell, because like I said, to him there is no time. The day when you die and go to heaven or hell will seem like/actually be this exact second to God because, once again, we come back to the omnipotent being having no sense of time. He sees all of time at once, from beginning to end. That is how he knows what we will decide and where we will end up.

The choice is ours, he just knows what we'll pick.

oh now i understand