I concur...

if you knew who Burt Bacharach was, you'd never say such a rediculous thing !

I never bothered to listen to him, but i completely disagree that anyone from a genre that is musically full of "sampling" other people's music could produce the greatest musical artist ever. Maybe the greatest rapper ever, but if he didnt compose music, real music, then no, he isnt. Did he even play an instrument?

Trent Reznor is easily one of the greatest musical artists around. I'm not a big fan of Burt, but you have to admit, the man has a TON of successful music to his name, and not a single song was a hit for Britney or NSync

I'm not saying Tupac wasn't a good rapper but I have to disagree about him being "the greatest musical artist of all time".

Lots of people idolized Jimi Hendrix. He wasn't a personal favorite...

Have any of you ever heard The Red Hot Chili Peppers play? That's real talent...Eddie Van Halen is an awesome guitarist, too. Joe Satriani, anyone? Well, Joe and Eddie don't sing but, as I implied, they're talented.

I know there are more but I can't think of anyone right off hand. Amy Lee? Now, her talent is obvious.

Alicia Keyes? She's black and a talented writer/singer.

How did we end up talking about music in a movie thread? ;)

It's an opinion, you can't argue with an opinion. Just tell us who you like better and get on with it.

Love Bacharach, one of the greatest living songwriters around. His collaborations with Dionne Warwicke, Dusty Springfield and Elvis Costello are fantastic.

Oh, this was meant to joke about a fallacy. Thought that was pretty clear.
But I understand mental illness. I have relatives and friends with all different kinds and overlaps.

Chili Peppers are AWFUL live.

I second that. He is/was what Trent Reznor is to industrial metal/rock.

I think 2pac played music but not as extensively as Reznor. Both had musical backgrounds though. Reznor played in his high school band starting out. 2pac went to this high school called the Baltimore School for the Arts where his majors were music, and acting with primarily an emphasis in writing (hence his poetry in early years propelled his sense of being a lyrical genious later in his career) But I can imagine if you're being a music major they teach you how to compose as well as play.

http://www.imeem.com/nymphowolf/vide...p_music_video/

I think lyrics are much more important. Anyone can be a good musician if they play for hours and hours, look at asian people.

Because someone criticized the movie Step Up 2 and stated how terrible the soundtrack was to support it; then they went on about criticizing rap as a collective; then I went to distinguish the line between Rap vs. Hip Hop vs. Gangsta Rap and what is seen today; then someone agreed, accused it of dying when he died--but some of us said Saul Willams, Nas, and countless others still exist but are underground becasue what is "selling" seems to matter that what is right or makes sense.

Pretty good summary huh?

I agree that Lyrics are important but its both the lyrics and the music, you can't just pick either or, cause you could have awesome lyrics with shitty music and it would be a shitty song and vice versa.

I agree with you...the actual composition of the music is great....of course it is--it's the foundation. But the true weapons are your words. :)

hmmmm Ya know you never did answer my question. was my blind summary of the movies plot correct or not? I just wanted to know.

So explain this scenario: So 2pac has great lyrics. But doesn't extensively compose the music for his tracks. Because you said it's not an either or situation, does this mean he isn't talented or can't be compared with other artists? :confused:

Explain please.

Answer my question that I asked yesterday and I will answer yours. :)

"Secondly, what plot was in that movie? Hmmm a bunch of street dancers, try to get street cred by street dancing, with some street dancing friends. at the end there is a big street dance off ho down. Mix in some sort of obsticle, a few plot twists that for the most part are useless, and finish it all up by resolving the problem with.... omg dancing(didn't see that one coming). By the way I haven't even seen the movie, how close was I?"


Not exactly. That's a shallow way of putting it. More like this:


It follows Andie West (Briana Evigan) as she pursues her big dream of becoming a street dancer. Her mother died of cancer when Andie was 16; she now lives with her mother's best friend, Sarah (her guardian), but in reality, Andie feels like she does not belong anywhere. Although she is doing badly at school, it is her passion for dancing that brings something good into her life. She rehearses regularly with her 'crew', the "410", to keep the title of the illegal competition, 'The Streets'. Sarah is tired of the crime and harassment by the 410 and tells Andie she will have to go to live with her aunt in Texas if she doesn't turn her life around.


Tyler Gage (Channing Tatum) meets her at the dance club, The Dragon. Tyler tries to persuade her to audition for the Maryland School of the Arts (MSA), where Andie has to compete for a place, thinking it will help her life as it did his. When Andie refuses, Tyler decides to battle her for it. In a memorable dance scene, Tyler does great moves and wins the battle. The two head back to her place and Tyler convinces Sarah to let her join MSA. She eventually agrees, and Tyler leaves Andie to audition at MSA while he goes on tour with Nora, confident that she can make it. Chase Collins (Robert Hoffman) persuades the school director (his brother) Blake (Will Kemp) to recruit Andie after seeing a spectacular performance. When Andie's studies come before the crew, the members are not happy and decide to kick her out. So Andie and Chase form a new crew with help from many people Chase knows at the school, all of whom are not accepted as who they are.


The 410 doesn't like the fact that they have a new crew to compete with so they warn Andie's group to stay out of The Streets or there will be consequences. When Tuck finds Chase, he assaults him for his prank. Chase comes into school the next day badly bruised and hurt. On top of that, the dance studio has been trashed by the 410 the previous night. Director Collins decides that he will not allow anyone from the school to be involved in illegal competitions. He then decides to expel Andie from MSA because of her involvement with the Streets competition after a tip-off from Sophie. When asked if there were any other students involved, Andie does not tell him about her crew.

When Sarah hears the news of Andie's expulsion, she tells her that she has had enough of her behavior and that Andie now must go to live with her aunt in Texas. Just when Andie is packing her bags to leave for Texas, she receives a text message from Missy that The Streets is on that night - the same night as the MSA fundraiser. Along with Andie, her whole crew gets the text message. They decide to ditch the MSA fundraiser (except for Moose) and instead compete in The Streets. Sarah hears about what Andie did to protect her crew and is proud of her. She allows Andie to compete at The Streets with her crew. The director sees them compete and realizes that the street dancing he has been opposing is in fact a legitimate form of artistic expression. He accepts Andie into MSA again. The film finds its optimistic ending - a passionate kiss between Andie and Chase.


So saying that is just dancing for street cred is a bit of an overstatement. You or anyone could've guessed that without seeing it--just by knowing the title; so being that you haven't seen it wasn't anything special from someone else whom didn't. Sure it has drama/plot--but in it's own respective right. Every film doesn't meet one general criteria to be a movie. That's insane. Otherwise we wouldn't genres and subgenres such as horror, drama, romance-drama, action, documentary and all the various subcategories that exist today.

That's fair. I have. :)

Ya know, after reading that whole summary I am totally sure the movie is exactly they way I said it was going to be so I stand with my statement. It's crap. Thats the only genre it deserves to be in.

And to answer your question, No I don't personally think rap is music, but don't get me wrong its not how it sounds. I think of rap as more of a form of poetry with a beat in the background. So I don't really think it falls under the category of music vs lyrics, since rap is mainly lyrics.

1st comment about the film--I still disagree with you

2nd comment is a follow-up question. If it's just poetry with beats in the background, what is any song really? Is it not too poetry--whether it's rhytmic with meter or is a free verse, does it not to have a beat in the background--now that beat many be a complete symphony of instruments or compiled studio and audio beats. But is it not to the same just a different form? I am still perplexed at the moment.

since we're talking 'urban' music ..

here's who i can honestly say i like :

Public Enemy
Run DMC
Tribe Called Quest
De La Soul
Jungle Brothers
Black Sheep (my favorite)
Fugees (and the solo efforts)


I prefer Trip Hop and old school.

i dont hear much the kids are playing that i can stand - but i'm told that there is a huge underground scene that is still good music.

TOO MANY BIG WORDS!!! STOP IT!! MY BRAIN HURTS!!! But no, any other type of music has some actual instrument in it, whereas with rap you could just have a beat machine, or a program making beats.

Thats just because you're female, don't worry do some dishes and that will go away.



























I KEED I KEED!

http://www.mavericktimes.com/triumph.jpg

Strictly speaking, from a musicalogical point of view, rap does not contain all the elements needed to comprise what is music. Music must have, in addition to rhythm, melody, harmony and color.

Rap has at most, two of these elements, but not all.

Yes the undergrund scene. That's what I was talking about earlier. Plenty of people like those and 2pac are still around. Nas, Saul Williams, Mos Def, Anthony Hamilton, Common, KRS One, Marley Marl, et al. They refuse to "sell out" and go back to "what simply sells", hence Jay Z retired for a year but went back to the game.

I second this.

I don't see how they don't have all, even if the form isn't as typical as what you would prefer it being, I still don't see substantial difference; it appears the same but different forms--different styles.

Both music and lyrics is not necessary for good music.
For example you can have just Lyrics, i.e. Are You That Somebody (A-Capella Version) or just Music as in an instrumental, i.e. Jay-Z's instrumentals.
There was a famous pianist who during concert didn't play anything for like 10 minutes and got a standing ovation. Because the music is not voice and instruments but also the silence too.

It's difficult to explain color to the blind.

I didn't make this up. Rap is not sung- it's spoken. Therefore, it has no melody. You're honestly unable to discern this? If so, say so, because you don't have the ability to understand or perceive the differences and I'll bow out of the discussion because I don't like blabbering for nothing.

bone thugs n harmony

Thank You.



http://www.imeem.com/kmbrown/playlis...usic_playlist/

Although that link isn't Bone thugs n harmny, Can you not also hear other instruments in this besides a mere beat?

I don't know, I think there can be melody in spoken word. Only 5 videos... some decent examples though. You honestly couldn't view these as music? Of course I'm sure most who write off an entire genre will simply not listen and restate their points...

Bone Thugs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLbefwHpaZQ

Nas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWbpmOO9HRA

The Roots
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqi5P4gAvSY

Even Dre...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS8ovxWYvTo

Eminem
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS7qq...eature=related



Throw in a bonus video too, well worth checking out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HrSN7176XI

I agree with you. That's why I said it has all forms as he's mentioned. Now becasue the style or form is different, doesn't mean it isn't there.

That song from The Roots is awesome... I love when rappers have a band.

It's a shame people just think of this when they think of rap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlbwYBzPXKk

Anyone into Immortal Technique? Him and Saul Williams are my favorites at the moment.

I dig a lot of the older shit like NWA, EPMD, Above The Law, Public Enemy, RUN DMC...

Can't go past the mighty Wu either.

Good Golly, Miss Molly, Despare! Didn't you just post that I couldn't argue with an opinion? What are you doing at this time?: ARGUING :P

LC, I see how your post count is so high. You reply in separate posts to each individual. I do admire you for being able to keep up with it all, though.

Thats exactly what i meant, just in a more intelligent way.

Oh and bone thugs n harmony is more R&B than anything.

I'm Rapping Marley
And I'm Here To Say
Seems Like This Thread
Has Gone Astray

Do Black People Like Horror
Was The Original Post
But I Couldn't Tell You
I'm As White As A Ghost

I Guess When It Comes Down To It
The Question Is Kind Of Lame
Be It Black Or White Or Yellow
Underneath We're Just The Same

You Strip Away The Skin
You're Left With Muscle & Bone
Some Internal Organs & Blood
Doesn't Matter The Skin Tone

We Are All Brothers & Sisters
Trying To Make It On This Earth
Shouldn't Matter What Hue
Was Giving To You At Birth

As Far As The Music Goes
Give Me Country,Rap Or Blues
Some Southern Jams Or R&B
A Bit Of Rock & Roll I Choose

Maybe A Little Sinatra
Or Tony Bennet If The Mood Fits
Throw On Some Waylon Jennings
And Eat A Bowl Of Grits

If I Want To Get Good & Funky
I'll Listen To Some Meters
But Its Neverendingwonder Radio
That Will Greet My Trick Or Treaters

You mean Given right?

Though I know that you won't answer this I'd figure i'd just point it out as the first typo i've seen in any of your poems.

get down with your bad self, cracker !