So you don't believe in it, even in extreme circumstances such as rape or incest? If you really think about it, do you believe that you could live with a reminder of what happened to you every single day? Personally, every time I looked at that child it would remind me of what had happened, and I would grow to resent him/her.

I have made my feelings on this one clear months ago when this subject turned into a flame war with Vamprocker, who started suggesting the pro-choicers might deserve to be blown up.

Murder or not, making it illegal solves nothing and hurts more people than it helps. i have been personally affected by this (no, i was not the father), and it is very sad and sickening. The woman who had it is now the mother of 2 and loves her kids more than most, but she wasnt ready at the time.

Do i think she did it for the wrong reason? Absolutely. The same person has a daughter she will never meet because that one was adopted. SHould she close her legs? Hell yes! Will she? probably not. Birth control, plain and simple. We need to stop letting religions tell their members to NOT use it. Sorry, but the pope is an idiot. Sex advice should not come from a virgin in his 70s, end of story.


Absinance is a wonderful, unrealistic and completely implausible dream. And i say Bush is an idiot for stating that is "the way" to prevent unwanted pregnancy and AIDS. Sure, it works (like stingy said) on paper, but so does communism, which also doesnt work in real life. Education, and readily available birth control is the ONLY way. Abortion is an option, just not a very good one.

My practical side is what i use to make my decisions. Dont think for a second that i am not moral. BUT, in 20 years when we are struggling against inflation and lack of resources, i dont want to see ANYONE with a pro-life sticker complaining about the situation. The last major depression we had was in the 30s. We are due for another real soon. The 2030s are less than 30 years away now.

Let me put it this way. If someone has low self-esteem, they SHOULD opt for councilling and/or a support group for help. But many/most dont. they go out and get their tits fixed, and their gut liposuctioned, and then feel better about themselves. I hate to draw parralels, but its the same thing. Also, what tends to get ignored is that women dont just walk in and say "I'm pregnant! I need and abortion!" and then the doctor jumps out and yells "Fire up the vacuum, lets see if we can kill this kid and get this slut out the door."

There is a great deal of counciling that they are at least SUPPOSED to be put through to see if this is really the decision they want to make. Perhaps rather than blowing up clinics, the pro-lifers should be explaining WHY they want to help these girls with their problem. (and actually help, not stick a picture of a dead fetus in her face and call her a fucking murderer when she hasnt even DONE it yet)

But it is easier to sit on a high horse and condemn people for making what is usually the hardest decision in their life... They never seem to want to help, just point the finger.

And they are not all "Skanks"... What about a nice girl who goes out with a guy, finally sleeps with him and gets knocked up? Could have even been wearing protection and the condomn broke. Continue to believe what you believe, because you will anyway, but THINK about the situation more, rather than just writing off as an "easy" fix for sluts and whores who cant be bothered to wear a rubber. Dont condemn the innocent majority for the failings of others.


And for the record, i wish women would more often choose to have the kid, or be more careful, but i am a guy. Its not something i will ever have to deal with personally.

The topic doesn't bode well with me either. I'm as sterile as latex gloves. I wish I could have children, but it will never happen.

If I had the choice, I would definitely have children. But even with that counting against me, I still think women should have the choice.

Not all that many females have voted, so I'll say what I think.

I think that women should only have abortions when rape, incest, or a risk to the mother occurs. I know that if I was raped (especially now, at age 15) that not only would I not be responsible enough to have a child, but I wouldnt want a constant reminder of being raped.

I think if your condom breaks, you should have to deal with it. That sounds more harsh than I wanted it too, but you get the general idea. Adoption is one option, but keeping it will always be the best option IMO.

I think it is such bullshit when people use abortion as a form of birth control. Seems everyone who murders their baby because they weren't ready, or didn't have enough money, or blah blah blah comes up with their own rational for why they killed their child... WHY IS IT THAT THEY THINK WHEN THEY DON'T WANT IT, IT"S JUST TISSUE AND WHEN THEY DO WANT IT IT'S A BABY?????

As a woman who has had children I can tell you that from the moment of conception, that baby is alive and growing. I've heard my Childs heartbeat and seen ultrasound picks as early as 4 weeks into pregnancy.

I think it is the saddest thing in the world to hear someone say they had an abortion because they weren't ready to have a baby. WTF? It has been 13 years since the birth of my fist child. (totally unplanned) During that time my husband have had sex a million times, our birth control being my dude knows how to control himself if you get my point.

Only when we decided to have another child did I become pregnant again. It only took one try because I know my body and when I'm ovulating. It's simple science people, 14 days after the first day of your period, give or take a few in either direction.
Abortion is not birth control and anyone who uses it because they're too selfish, or stupid to prevent pregnancy should be ashamed of themselves and I am sure at one time on their life when they finally grow up and realize what life is all about will live in a world of pain and regret for killing their child.

What about being raped when your 14? (just an example)

This is exactly the point i was trying to make. The women who have an abortion and arent severely affected by it are rare and emotionally bankrupt anyway. They do not DESERVE to have kids.

However, i still think they should have the option. America is about freedom, and the only person who suffers in most of these cases is the kid. I would be intersted to see how many unwanted children become victims of pedophiles, if for no other reason than those sick fuckers manage to molest kids from happy, loving homes. Just imagine if the kid's parents dont care what happens to them?

Just tell the rapist to practice abstinance :rolleyes:

"Do her in the butt, sicko. That way you still get to dominate, and she doesnt have to deal with the whole messy 'abortion' issue."

Sorry if that was a bit severe. But Orangestar brongs up a good point. i imagine a girl inher early teens, if forced to have the klid, would kill herself.

I am personally totally against abortion for any reason.

My daughter is 13 and if she were pregnant from rape or stupidity I would not allow her to kill her child. It would be a very tough for her to go through pregnancy and birth at such a young age, but my husband and I would be there helping her every step of the way. Life isn't always easy and murdering a innocent baby is not going to make life any easier for anyone.

I was raped when I was in my teens. I was not pregnant but if I had been I wouldn't have killed my baby. I would have loved that baby as much as the children I have with my husband. A life is a life , no matter how conceived.

I will never think abortion is ok. I think in this country people are abusing it daily and it is so sad..... If someone doesn't want to be a parent then use some common sense birth control. There are tons of options out there. Accidents do happen but that's the risk you take when you have sex. Which is why people shouldn't be having sex when they are immature and irresponsible which is any age that someone would get pregnant and decide to kill their baby.

people are or should be responsible for everything they think, say, or do... that includes having unprotected sex and getting pregnant.. I could go on and on and on.........

You obviously deserve to be a mother, but not everyone could handle having the kid. Is till believe that many many young girls inthis situation would commit suicide. Not everyone comes froma loving family. I know plenty where the girl would be blamed for the incident.

But once again, I'm just a guy. it isnt my say.

I am aslo for responsibility. Just dig up any post i have made about blaming entertainment for tragedies.....:mad:

But a rape victim is beyond responsibility. Have your beliefs, but you need to accept that others have theirs. I think Orangestar is correct in her way of thinking, which is pretty lucid, especially considering her age.

So you would have her live with this for the rest of her life? You're condemning your own child to a life of misery. I know you're going to argue that she would be condemning her own child to the same fate as well.... but she wouldn't be. The child would be dead, without ever having formed her first thought. They wouldn't know that they were dead. They were never really alive in the first place.

In essence, you'd be trading your daughters life for your granddaughters. Good one.

I still have yet to hear how these people who are calling abortion "murder" can say that it is okay under extreme circumstances like "rape" or "incest". If a girl gets raped at 13 and becomes pregnant, is not aborting the child still murder? Or is it something else? If it is still murder, then you cannot say that abortion is wrong because it is "murder", because you believe that murder is okay at times. If it is something else, I would like to know what that is. I would like to know how it changes from murder, to not murder simply by the method that the child was conceived. Also, if a pregnant woman accidentally fell down the stairs and killed her child, should she be charged with manslaughter?

I think gothic-chick is the only pro-lifer here who has fully realized her views (although I disagree with them). When I speak of abortion, I don't speak in terms of morality. People are so fucked up in general when it comes to morals that preaching morality is like commanding a rock to turn into a flower. When it comes to things like abortion, I have to resort to utilitarianism. Abortion is wrong, yes. But I think it is the lesser of the two evils. People have been aborting their unwanted pregnancies for EVER, through all sorts of hideous and dangerous methods. And they will continue to do so, whether it is legal or not. But, say you threaten mothers with the death penalty if they abort their children, and so we have more and more women opting to give birth to their unwanted babies. The result:

1. A surplus of unwanted kids up for adoption. They'll be bursting orphanages at the seams.

2. Children living in homes with parents who do not want them. They will grow up abused, unloved, and will probably become criminals.

3. Children living in homes with parents who can't afford them. Suddenly MY taxes go through the roof so that I can help support all these kids. And, after a while, I won't be able to support MY own family!

And that's just for starters. Abortion may be immoral (I am undecided on that issue), but I think forcing unwanted kids to burst into our society may be even worse. In the first case, you are harming a single life. In the second, you are affecting entire communities, if not the whole nation. Now, some of you may say "You can't place a value on a life. You can't say that 2 lives are worth more than 1." Maybe you'd be right. But I do not think that 1 life should be able to exist if it calls for the misery of countless other lives who had no control over the situation to begin with.

I disagree totally.... and I think everything you just said is stupid.

Misery would be your mother making you kill an innocent child. Mothers don't look at their children with resentment. they look at them with gratitude for making them see what life is all about, for making them become better people.They look at them with hope and love. Not condemnation. I can't speak for all rape victims but I can say for myself I don't ever think about it. It was a long time ago. It wasn't my fault I was in the wrong place at the wrong time and I would never even consider wasting even a moment of my life dwelling on it.


what you said about a baby never being alive in the first place.... that's ridiculous! from the moment of conception that baby is alive and growing just not breathing air yet. That baby is alive the very second some bastard rips him from the walls of his selfish mothers womb.

You've never had a child under those circumstances, so you couldn't POSSIBLY know.

Also, I wasn't saying that you should force your child to abort. I'm saying that you should let her decide, and support whatever decision she makes.

Resorting to name calling will make this get out of hand very quickly. Stingy was right, you have thought out your reasons, which is good.

But one thing you need to understand is that most people out there are not as compassionate as you are. i also do not agree with you, but i will say you sound like an amazingly good person. Please dont let your emotions drag you into flaming.

Points taken... thanks!

That wasn't name calling. I'm a master name caller, but I never resort to it. Hopefully, no one here ever has to see that side of me.

I'm in one FUCK of a mood today.

Just a hypothetical question: What would happen if your daughter got pregnant, either accidentally or by being raped, and she told you that she wanted to have an abortion. I mean if she was really really adamant about getting one, she had thought it through in a mature way and came to the decision that her baby would not have a good life growing up this way. Would you still force her to have the child?

-Whoever brought up the fact that the Roe vs. Wade complaintants are now against it, made a very good point.

-I would think the emotional scars of having an abortion (killing your child) would be much tougher to go through life with, than a beautiful child that happens to be the product of a rape. (Don't get me wrong, rape is horrible, but it's not the babies fault.)

-We have waaay too many single moms in this day and age and that's sad. It really does make it tough on them to raise a kid by themself. This is exactly the point where I place the fair share of the blame on the father. It takes two to tango, so if you get her knocked up, you damn well better be there for her and your kid.

-Stingy, I am against abortion in all cases, meaning I, myself, would never support one in any event. I do, however, see the arguement behind it being considered for cases of rape, incest, and mother's health issues. I don't agree with it, and I wouldn't choose it for myself, but in those instances, I do believe it should be up to the mother & father (if applicable). Those are special circumstances.


Basically it boils down to this....

With the countless different forms of birth control (natural family planning like Gothic Chick said, condoms, pills, operations, patches, etc.) out there, there really is no excuse for an unplanned pregnancy other than laziness, stupidity or immaturity. If you are having sex, there is a chance you will end up with an unplanned pregnancy. There are a large number of things you can do to avoid this outcome, however many people are too laxy, stupid, immature to take the neccesary precautions.

That is the real problem. Too many people having sex that are not prepared to deal with the responsibility that goes along with it.

I think you just made history, bwind. A point that neither side of this debate can argue with.

i'm personally against abortion in all cases, but heres why:

A) One of my best friends is the result of a rape.

B) I personally think it's immoral.

C) If my girlfriend were to become pregnant I wouldn't want here to have an abortion (it's my baby too!)

I am however a Libertarian, which means I believe that it's up to the individual person to decide whether an abortion is immoral. I would never force my girlfriend not to have an abortion, I would just advise her against it, adoption in my opinion is a far better option.

I wouldn't have to, She wouldn't ever consider abortion an option. I am her mother and because of that fact she has been taught the same values and morals I believe in.

Also she is way too young to make a mature decision. My job as a parent is to guide her and help her to make choices she is too young to make herself. That's one of the things that separate children from adults, the ability to see the consequences of our actions and thinking about the future.

Having said all of that it's hard to answer your question since my daughter would never make that choice. But hypothetically speaking I would never ever under any circumstances let her kill her baby.

I really regret making this thread. If only I could take it back and not have to hear all of your opinions. I think most of you are very open minded... but there are some that it seems would have us go back to the Dark Ages morally.

my friend just had an abortion at 6 weeks.

she said 'yeh i saw the baby. it was a little worm. but it was my worm'

made her sad but now way in hell was she gonna have that kid. she still has 2 years of college left

No I have never had a child resulting from rape. But I was raped and had the possibility of being pregnant and plenty of time to think about it before knowing I wasn't. I can say with absolute certainty I would NOT have chosen abortion.

A 13 year old girl is nowhere near mature enough to make a decision like that. As a parent I would and should make it for her. It's cut and dry for me and my family. Abortion is never an option no matter the conception.

I know someone who got pregnant at 17 and didn't tell her parents.She didn't tell anyone at all except the father. She thought she made the right choice and at 17 walked into a clinic where 30 year old adults took her baby from her body with no parental consent.

To this day she suffers the agonizing pain of what she did. Her regret is not telling her parents who she knew would not have allowed it to happen. She told me about it all when she was 38. She is 40 years old now with no children. She feels undeserving of being a mother.

It ruined her life totally. She gave up on all of her dreams and ambitions. All because of that decision she was way too young to make on her own. She is married to the father of that baby. Their lives are a total mess. They agonize daily about the choice they made. They think they will burn in hell for what they did.

She tells me that they have both had nightmares of that baby crying for them. They see that baby in all of their neices and nephews.

That someone is my sister. I love her to death and she killed her baby. Plain and simple she killed her baby. Nothing will ever change my mind about abortion. It will and does ruin lives.

what a selfish and stupid girl.......

Meh... As I have already said, my wife got pregnant once before we were ready to have a child. We were careful, used birth control, but it happened. We could not afford to have the baby, and we also could not afford her taking time off from work to carry the baby to term and go through recovery. We both agreed that abortion was the only option, under the circumstances. And we went through with it. She does not regret it, she is not miserable, our lives are not destroyed ... at least, not in the way they would have been had we decided to keep the baby. And this is when we both mature enough to make decisions on our own. You can call us stupid, lazy, or what have you. But, the fact remains that we were careful. We used birth control, and it fucking happened anyway. And don't you sit there and tell me that I should not have sex with my wife if I wasn't ready to have a baby. Do you plan to have a kid every time you have sex with your spouse? Remember, we were protected! So, what's good for some people is not for others. Just because your friend feels she made the wrong choice, and allows herself to dwell in that misery, does not mean that the service is not helpful for others.

That is YOUR choice and YOUR opinions. The fact that you would abandon your sister because of that speaks volumes about what you are really like. You are just as selfish as the people you claim to hate.

I didn't start the name calling, YOU did. And if you think that you'll finish it, you are DEAD wrong.

See my last post for my thoughts on that. You feel the need to aggrivate and agitate the situation even more than it already is? WHY? You don't know this girl, and you certainly don't know the person that made this post. Yet you just insulted both of them with your reply.

I have a feeling you're not even really a goth chick. You may wish you were, but that's just not the case. You sound as if you were 500 years old.

I know I said I regretted making this thread/flame war. But I will back my opinions, and the opinions of the people I consider to be my friends, to the bitter end.

Gothic-chick, you just made yourself an enemy. Congratulations. I'm the last person you want to battle.

All I knows is my babys momma be always sweatin me.
I wish her moms had a abortion. Dam.

one word

perception

there are is no 'is'. just our concept of what 'is'

to one abortion is no big deal to another its murder. things happen for a reason. what about if jeffrey dahmers mother decided to have an abortion rather than to bear a man who killed 14?

on the other hand, what if martin luther king jrs mother decided to have an abortion?

things happen for a reason. whine and bitch and complain all you want people are gonna do it anyway. seems as thuogh stingy is doing pretty well as i know plenty who have had abortions who are doing fine

my friend for one, sure she coulda kept the kid. so baiscally it wouldve been a corporal and a girl who doesnt eeven have her AA raising a child. how fair for the child yeh? instead shes gonna continue onto college and get her BA and become a psychologist. THEN have a child. a much, much more stable life for that child.. at least in MY eyes

I dont think she said she abandonned her sister.

I wanted to let sleeping dogs lie, but i cant. People against abortion say life begins at conception, however... there is not yet a universally accepted definition for what constitutes life.

Something like a virus displays most of the attributes of life, including reproduction, but they lack others. So when is a fetus a life? at conception? the very moment the zygote forms? If so, is a woman's body commiting infanticide if the zygote gfails to stick to the uterin wall and is flushed out the next time she has a period? what about a miscarriage?

Going back then, especially with the view that you shoulod expect a kid every time you have sex, do you theb support the Catholic idea that birth control is ALSO murdering the fetus before it ieven has a chance? Where is the line? Then masturbation would be proactive murder every time a guy jerked off.

There is way too much grey area to make black and white judgements on something this important.

I think Hitler's mom was going to have an abortion, and decided not to. I could be wrong ... need to look that up.

if thats true..

that pretty much contradicts her "[abortion] will and does ruin lives."

in this case how many lives was it... 5 million?? hmmmmmmmm

I'm not sure at which point this thread went from a civil conversation/debate to a much more heated, much less fun, flame war, and I really don't care. I'm not gonna point any fingers at anyone, but I am going to be done with this thread.

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/je...adinflames.jpg

I remember reading something about how Hitler's mom had several miscarriages throughout her life, and that the doctors warned her that her pregnancy with Adolf could kill her. She considered abortion, but decided against it because she wante d so desperately to have a child. But, I could be getting my facts confused ... it has been a long time since I read it.

Well, I haven't flamed anyone, even though my wife and I were indirectly called stupid, lazy and immature.

I'm not going to sugar coat my feelings for you. You posted what you think on a public board to I'm going to tell you what I think.

I feel sorry for you and your wife. You killed your baby because you didn't have enough money??? I think that's the most pathetic thing I have ever heard in my life. Justify it all you want. It is what it is.

I too had an unplanned pregnancy. She is now 13 years old. The best thing that ever happened to me. At the time I was still living with my parents and the only way my husband and I could make it was to live in a shitty little apartment that reeked of Indian food all of the time. We ate bologna sandwiches and struggled along dealing with the consequences of our ACCIDENT (broken condom). Because we had no insurance,we paid doctor bills for 3 full years before they were finally paid off. It made us stronger than ever and made us strive for a better life. Nothing in life is easy. What the hell is it with people these days who are afraid of struggle? I guess you should thank God your parents didn't look at you like a burden and kill you before you had a chance!

As you may have noticed, This topic pisses me off more than anything in the world.


And yes everytime my husband and I have sex we take the chance of another baby. A baby we are not capable of killing .

who said I would abandon my sister??? I never said that...... And I never said I hated anyone. Learn to read !


They are my opinions , opinions YOU asked for