Hey do you guys remember like an hour ago when I said I didn't want to turn this into a religious debate?



Yeah, sorry about that.


:p

Nothing did. As the matter was gathering to create the giant mass that eventually became a star, it gained more and more gravitational force (basic physics lesson: the more mass an object has, the more gravitational force it has). When the mass hit a certain point, it became unstable and created a star. When the star gained more and more mass, it became unstable and exploded.

I dont believe in any higher being. Sorry to dissapoint you, but my outlook is exactly that. Our existence is one big lucky (for us) biological accident. I do believe there is life on other planets somewhere. Just thinking about how BIG outer space is just freakes me out. Anything could be out there. Remember the end of Men in Black where the giant aliens were playing marbles with the milky way? That could happen theoretically I guess.

There's no proof of the 'creation' theory, but we have actually proof of evolution, and I am a scientificallly minded person. So I have to go with the proof.

It was something, i will grant you that, but i do not assign a persona or a belief system to it. There may very well be a God. If so, he deals with everyone in his own way. I think not believing inhim without proof will fall pretty far behind child molestation and beheading innocent civilians, so i am content with my outlook of the unisverse, until i see something a little more convicing than "existance". There are plenty of good explanations where god doesnt enter the equation.

Sorry to anyone this bothers, but i have always equeated faith with ignorance. Why ask questions when someone has already told you answers you are comfortable with?

That would be fine, if it wasnt put to bad use soo often. Think for yourself, ask questions, look for answers (not just in 1 book...), and if you come back to God in the end, so be it. That is your answer.

Different beliefs, different destinations....

Amen brother.

So, what you're saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that you think our universe has always existed, since before the beginning of time even though there was no matter in it?

Wouldn't that just be empty space?

How could worlds form from nothing?

Remember that matter never increases or decreases, only chages forms and density.

So, let's say that the universe has always been here in human terms. There is no time to God, so it's entirely possible that even though the universe seems to have existed forever to us, it is nothing more than a blip on the radar for a being that is not bound by the constraints of our human time.

You're missing the point.

Where did that matter come from?

We don't know. I certainly don't believe some omnipotent being created it (especially seeing as the bible dates history back a mere 10,000 years, and we have scientific proof that the Earth alone is nearly 4 billion years old).

Coincidence? Most likely.
Created by some mystical white guy with a beard wearing a sheet? Probably not.

Why must it always come back to some being?

For one thing, there are many layers of complexity here.

Matter is made up of energy, so matter may not be able to be destroyed, but it can be converted.

We exist in one dimension. There is more than satisfactory proof that other dimansions exist. Maybe there WAS absolutely nothing, but a leak was made that caused energy and/or matter to find it's way into our dimension.

There are types of matter we have yet to discover, other types we have yet to study. The rules change with scale. impossibilities on our scale are regular on a quantum scale, and at larger scales.

There is plenty beyond human comprehension. To me, the easy way out is to say someone had to do it. it is a dark, scary, lonely way to look at everything if you dont accept that there is a big brother out there taking care of us and everything else.

But to me, it is very freeing. I knwo I am a good person, because i am a good person. I dont have some fear that i will burn in hell if i do something wrong, i just believe in right and wrong. It is possible to be non-religious and still be moral.

Good points. It seems to me like you may be the only one seeing what I'm saying here. I'm not trying to force anyone into any religious beliefs, and to be completely honest I have never seen any actual scientific proof that God exists either.

To me, God is a being far beyond our scope of comprehension. He is not bound by any of the rules we know and that alone, makes it a very hard thing to comprehend. I've studied several of the world's religions (a hobby I took up in college) and arrived at the conclusion that there is one similarity in almost every one of them. There is a higher power. That's it. There's something greater than us that is responsible for us (or at least created the universe as we know it). It doesn't really matter what human label you put on it.

GANDALF the WHITE?

sorry.....continue with your serious philosophical talk. I'm going back to the Monty Python thread.............NI

I don't belive in either

"But to me, it is very freeing. I knwo I am a good person, because i am a good person. I dont have some fear that i will burn in hell if i do something wrong, i just believe in right and wrong. It is possible to be non-religious and still be moral."

EXACTLY!!!!

I don't understand why people think that you're a bad person if you don't believe in God. My morals and beliefs are much stronger than those of many, many religious people I know. It's a crutch, a tool that people use so they don't feel so lonely. I can't base my life on lies and half truths, sorry.

Well, the matter had to come from some where right? So when you figure it out, let me know what you come up with.

The Bible dates human history. It is common knowledge that our planet has been around for millions of years. I don't think anyone that reads/believes in the Bible would try to tell you that the dinosaurs were here 5000 years ago.

to quote you: EXACTLY!! Not having religion does not mean I am a bad person. There are milllions of ways that the earth COULD have been created, I just happen to disagree with a lot of the world on one way.

What do you mean dates human history?

I have always thought the fact that so many cultures have a "higher power" was similar to why so many cultures have their own versions of vampires and werewolves, not to mention man-beasts.

Humans have the tendancy to rationalize things in a very similar way, no matter where you are on earth. how many old religions had a thunder god? A sun god? how similar were they, culture to culture?

Just because everyone believes that unicorns are white, doesnt mean they are, if you catch my drift.

I couldn't agree more! Some of the best people I know are 100% atheist. And then you have Catholic priests molesting little kids.

So you are 100% right about that! Being religious doesn't mean you are a good person and being non-religious doesn't mean you are a bad one.

Anyways... I got to get going. Good discussion guys! I hope I didn't piss anyone off too much. I have taken the stance that we will all have to agree to disagree.

One of the first things I noticed on my path to Atheism is how the Greeks, Romans, Christians, Buddhists, etc. All believe(d) in such different things. Who is so arrogant to say that their religion is "the right one". Who the fuck knows which is right? I just took the easy path and said none of them are right, at least not for me.

The amount of time human beings have been around as opposed to the amount of time the world has been around.

You would be surprised.....

The bible, in my opinion, is partially a historical text, and partially an attempt at moral guidance. the #1 problem i have with it is that it was written by people. thatfact alone makes it unreliable. No one is 100% objective in their representation of anything. Imagine if the bible was written by an ancient Michael Moore? He would be lying, per se, but he certainly wouldnt be giving you the whole story.

And then on top of that, you have new testament and old testament. How can you rewrite the story of everything?

I don't mean to bash you, that's not the point of this.

Has it ever occurred to you that the reason that a higher power exists in all cultures is the need for a belief system to constrain and force you into having a set of morals, and also because of peoples need for something more than they can see or feel. They know that there has to be something more, and they define it as a Godhead, a powerful figure, a being that has absolute control. Back when religions were first created, human comprehension and knowledge couldn't even BEGIN to approach the level that it's at right now. They basically saw this "something more" as a father (or mother, in some cultures) figure that was watching constantly and would punish them for any "bad" deeds that they did. Most of the reason religions like that came into existence was because in ancient tribes, the "shaman" needed a way to control his tribe, so he did it through fear. They played on peoples fears and fantasies. Granted, this was only at the beginning of religion. As time went on and people evolved, their belief systems did as well, and along came the peaceful religions such as Buddhism. While peaceful now, they are still a derivative of what was merely a control mechanism.

I have also studied religion for a long time, as you may be able to tell. I don't see a higher power being out there. It just doesn't make any sense. What does make sense is religion based on fear and power.

Right, which Is why I dont understand why such a high percentage of the world is that religious. To fight wars and lose your life over something like that.... I dont know. Just seems pointless. I guess religion is a huge part of a lot of peoples lives.

You haven't read it then. The New Testament and Old Testament are different. It is not like a 'remake'.

The Old Testament is mostly a list of names. (Zacariah, brother of Judiah, son of Maximillion, etc...) And the New Testament deals with the life and times of Jesus Christ.

It was written by human beings, and you are right to say that makes it fallible. (I like your Michael Moore reference, that was funny.) But the majority of the humans who wrote it, actually knew Jesus quite well, so there should be some truth in there.

It is a good historical reference as well as a good set of moral guidelines.

Right Bwind, it is a great set of moral guidelines. But thats not how people take it. The Michael Moore reference makes a lot of sense really, maybe its all true, but embellished.

I'll couple this with bwind's comment about the preists. Here is my #1 problem with the Catholic Church (sorry if you are Catholic, feel free to hate me):
Catholacism was started in the Holy Roman Empire, by Constantine.

Constantine was not Christian to begin with. he didnt believe in it one bit.

But, His mother was. And one day, she told him that he would die if he did not convert. So he did. And he spent an ridiculous amount of money building churches and ornate edifaces to jesus and god. and he made everyone under him convert.

So Catholacism came to be because a heretic was afraid that he would die if he didnt start praying to god.

A quick interjection roght here. All three of you impress me (bwind, orangestar, ege). not one of youhas resorted to name calling or saying thisgs like "Well, you are just stupid, shut up".

:) a round of applause for all involved :)

That Genesis and Revelations thing sounds a lot like embellishment, but that is just me.

WHAT?!?....my Gandalf referance didn't mean anything. Well, you are just stupid,shut up.

I rather enjoy a good, logical argument. I rarely get them. As you said, most people just say "I'm better than you, my beliefs are better, and YOU'RE STUPID!!!".

I've leave that to the cavemen, thanks.

ooo, careful newb, I may start using offensive language... ;)

Just kidding :)

That is not correct. The Catholic Church was founded directly by Jesus Christ at the last supper. He broke bread and gave wine to his disciples and then told them to go and spread his word. His 12 apostles (or disciples, same thing) became the first 11 Catholic priests. (Judas killed himself after betraying Jesus.) Constantine had nothing to do with the birth of Catholicism.

I agree with you about this being a well spoken, mature discussion as opposed to the typical name calling that ensues when someone feels like they aren't being agreed with. :D

Maybe i was misinformed, but the apostles started christianity, not catholacism, to the best of my knowledge. But i digress, religion always took a back seat in my studies.

(I feel like such an ignorant little teenager but...) Can someone explain the differences between Catholocism and Christianity? All I know is Catholic priests can only be men, and must be celibate....right? Or is that both? :confused:

They started Catholicism.

Catholicism is a specific religion within Christianity. (Christians are tied by a belief in the same God as well as following the Bible.) There are other more minor differences that seperate the religions from each other...
Other Christian religions are Lutheran, Baptist, etc...

Catholic priests can only be men and they are supposed to remain celibate. (Obviously, not all of them do. That makes them a bad Catholic priest.)

Color me surprised. :)

Twats that you say, I cunt hear you. oooooooBLASPHEMER!

"and as a BLASPHEMAR, you are sentenced to be stoned to death."

"Look, my wife had cooked a lovely piece of fish, and all I said was 'That piece of Halibut was good enough for Jehovah'"

"Blasphemar!"

*clunk*

"OWWwww! Come off it, we haven't started yet!"

"Alright, who threw that?!"

"She did!She did!She did! uh , He did! He did...."


*scowls* "Are there any women here?"

"No. No. No. No. No."

that is correct sir