Sorry to burst your bubble, but this discussion started back in '88.

I was watching Tarzen and his matthis morning - I shudder at some how some of the animals might have been treated during this..

Some of the trip wires on horses in old westerns were pretty harsh too - and Khartoum with Heston I remmeber looking very rough..The Charge of the Light Brigade and the original Ben Hur killed a shit load of horsies too.

@TheWickerFan: Ah, it's not a problem. I'm used to conversations turning completely different in a short duration. Anyway, yep; I basically agree with you on the final judgment of each film.

@Ferox13: Oh, I do remember hearing about an abundance of violence in Tarzan and His Mate. Even with a film like that, I'd probably have to turn it down for the animal abuse. Ooh, yes, all of those Spaghetti westerns did have a fair amount of animal abuse. RIP Horsies #1-Shit Load.

@milktoaste: I was simply joking when I said "...and delicious". I always make little quirks like that when writing. And if you want to go that far, I will join you. I know a category of people that take such measures to gain attention for their actions. They are called serial killers. Now, of course, Tun Fei Mou is not a serial killer, but he still shouldn't have actually killed a cat and dug up an actual corpse for attention. Are slaughterhouses set up to get attention? NO! So slaughterhouses and Tun Fei Mou should be separated by now. And I understand that it does teach the history of the event well enough for those who were unaware of the event are now knowledgeable of the subject. It feels like you're respecting the film for nostalgic matter mainly, but I'll digress. If there was one other famous film about U-731, then maybe the popularity of Men Behind the Sun would decrease even more. And your description of the scene of the cat's death still doesn't explain why the director HAD to kill it. It might've been due to go to a gas chamber or something like that, but to have it get eaten by rats is pointless. And I don't think that TheWickerFan was taking pride in the situation that this thread is in, but hokay.

@ChronoGrl: Lmao, PETA....but you are correct, yes. I'd prefer if there were some animal rights laws legislated a little farther back than reality had let it happen, but that makes me a whining little bitch, wouldn't it? :P And my main problem was that they could have used some form of animatronics, dummies, puppets, dolls, marionettes, something. I find it a bit greedy of the directors to use real animals, for that matter. It probably cost more than dolls, marionettes and puppets, but there were animatronics and dummies that could have looked realistic back at the time. It's hard to determine their primary motive for using real animals, but we can determine the top probable choices, at least. And well, well, well, we have a pretty good explanation there for the best choice then. Tun Fei Mou desired the controversy to not only gain local attention, but more importantly, the attention of the Japanese officials. It still sickens me, but I see the primary motive now. I only wish that Tun Fei Mou took alternative routes in causing controversy. And The Rape of Nanking, I've never read that story either, but I may eventually.

@Elvis_Christ: Ah, alrighty then. C'mon, you two, break it up. Ooh, and someone is a bit feisty with their profanity. Decaf, next time. And I understand that the events on trips to and at slaughterhouses are very cruel and harsh, but they are certainly not as unacceptable as severe animal abuse for entertainment purposes or desire of meaningless controversy and attention. Yeah, what exactly did Tun Fei Mou accomplish from all of these films in the end? Controversy from the wrong people. Ah well, better luck next time. :P

I swear lots. You'll get used to it.

@WAF, I'm afraid you've taken my rebuttal out of context, I really don't think I took your comments very far at all- and your views on serial killers apparently only trying to gain attention for some cause is absurd. I wouldn't say(and haven't said) that I respect the film, but I do respect the message behind the film and the extreme measures an entire production crew was willing to take to tell it to the world, even if those measures were inappropriate.

The fact that so few of us in Europe are aware of the atrocities that the Japanese carried out on the Chinese during the early part of the 20th Century shows that there was a need for this to be bought into the public arena. I Only discoverd it when reading an article in The Times and was sickened and horrified. Whether the way it has been told in this film, and the motives of the film makers was pure, I don't feel so sure of. But I definitely agree that it needed to be told. I can watch horrors or read about them happily if they are ficticious. But to view something so horrific that is a representatio of real events, I find impossible to watch without feeling guilty or sick. And I am someone who has witnessed some of what the worst horrors can depict for real!

Oh and just a little note that may give more pause for thought. (but please don't shoot me down in flames).

The 'research' and tests carried out by the Japanese into frostbite. Despite being unethical, was taken and used by the US government. The research itself was invaluable and the US knew it was totally unethical for they, themselves to carry out. But the evidence and research that they siezed after VJ day has saved numerous lives in hospitals and war zones.
Some of the Japanese scientists worked covertly for the American government, just as some of the German doctors defected after the war. It doesn't make them any less monstrous, but it does kind of help to know that the suffering the chinese went through was not completely in vain.
Please don't shout at me for saying this :o

That is a valid point Bastet, the US could be said to be indirectly (and directly at times) responsible for many atrocities, or at least to have gained by them.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Yeah the Americans (well General MacArthur) apparently gave UNIT 731 a free pass on prosecution of warcrimes in exchange for the info gained from their experiments.

This is allegedly also true about the nazi scientists brought over on Operation Paper clip..

Cheers for that-couldn't remember the Number of the unit in China.
While we are comparing The Germans and the Japanese, I read a book on the psychology of war crimes-actually a history of Auswicz and it compared the motivations for the atrocities carried out by the Russians, Germans and Japanese and tried to considder the general reasons for the actions of soldiers from each country. The findings actually made sense;
The Russians acted on their orders because they were too terrified of the consequences of not following orders.

The Japanese Acted unquestioning on orders as they believed they came from their emperor and therefor it would be a disshonour not to obey.

Of the three countries, it is believed that only the German soldiers (of all rank) had freedom to choose their actions and to question orders, but still carried out attrocities- That is why the excuse of following orders is never accepted as a defense by the war crimes comission.

Why do you say the Germans (unlike the Russians) were not 'terrified of the consequences of not following orders'? - wouldn't that mean a court marshal and posible execution? (though I know little of Military Law)


Were rank and file or even non-commissioner Nazis ever procecuted for war crimes? I know that the Nurenberg trials were just the leaders and the guys that Simon Wiesenthal or Mossad tracked down wer the imfamous ones.

I was referring to a psychological study that was made. It is very generalised, but did look in-depth particularly at the Germn motivations. The idea being that the Germans had more free-will. They were often swept up in the propoganda and were brainwashed into believing in whathey did. But ultimately they had the choice.
But interesting point.
Some of the rank and file Germans were bought to book. There is one that has been tracked to Austria at the moment, but the Austrians refuse to let him be deported for trial as he is in his 90's

It's no small wonder they don't teach this stuff in elementary school.

Thats interesting Bastet - have u a link or name of the study and when it was made.

It was a Book that I read about Auswicz about 5 years ago. It was written with honesty and compassion. I found it sad, but fascinating as it looked at the psychology, but also the history of the Labour and Death camps-Only three of the camps were actually death camps; Treblinka, Sobibor and Auswics. Despite what people believe, Belsen was actually a labour camp.
The book also talked about the original portable gas chambers and the way they were 'tried out' on those with mental or physical disability first.
Its also interesting that the Gas Chamners were developed as a quick and faceless alternative to firing squads as it was felt that by making German soldiers see their victims before they shot them, this caused unnecessary stress to them.

I have been lucky enough in my job to work with some of the survivors of these terrible times- I nursed 2 ukranian gentlemen for many years who would beecome very angry if questioned about the numbers tattooed on their arms. One once explained that they were the people who the germans used to clean out the gas chambers and remove the dead before the next lot were hearded in.
On a happier note I nursed a B52 Bomber pilot and he was a truely amazing gentleman whom I could talk to for hours. My grandfather was one of the few men who survived the Normandy Landings. These people are long since gone, but it helped me to realise that these were real people with real histories and lives.
Will stop rambling now, but will try to find the title of the book-there was also a TV programme to accompany it

xx

Good stuff.

I saw a great documentry about the homosexuals who were sent to the camps. It was worse for them in some ways and after the way they never received the compassion the other victims did and in some cases were sent BACK to prison as homosexuality was still illegal in Germany at the time.

Though they weren't part of the final solution a lot of them died in the camps.

Years and years ago i watched something about the homosexuals in the camps but don't remember very well. Didn't they have to wear a triangle or something?

There was a complicated badge system for jews/gypsies/gays etc etc

I totally Agree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHkuT...eature=related
MBTS pt1

and what about this film:
PHILOSOPHY OF A KNIFE isnt that another version of unit 731?

Yeh it is another flick on the topic filmed in semi-documentary fashion.

I decided to watch this film. It is a 4 hour long documentary/art-house/torture-porn mish-mosh about the horrors of Unit 731. I'm at the halfway point, will try to finish it tomorrow. No animal killings so far.

Cannibal Holocaust
 

Ive never seen men behind the sun. But i gotta say cannibal holocaust was one of the freakyest movies ive seen. Two things i really liked about it is how even though the cannibals did alot of bad shit the crew recording them were way worse, killing and shit just for movie shots. I also liked that the movie seemed so real at the time the director actually had to bring the actor on a talk show or something to prove it wasnt really a snuff film lol. Personally there was alot to question about the movie, the animal violence for sure, the freaky native abortion scene, the raping of a few people by the natives and the crew, the list goes on lol. Although most of these subjects in the movie make people squirm i guess its mostly just to make it as fucked up and memorable as possible, many movies claim you wont forget it but i gotta say the one ill remember even into senile times has to be cannibal holocaust. If your looking for a scare and can handle all the crazy shit in it without puking then id highly suggest it to any dyhard horror fan, but not for those who are just getting into it or havent seen the worst gore and controversial topics can get in horror. And if i had to rate it it'd be at least 9/10, not the best but you WONT forget it.:D

Finished the movie. It was exceptionally brutal and heartbreaking. I don't think I could sit through it again, but it was certainly succesful in telling the whole story of what happened in Unit 731 without killing any cats or rats in the process.

What's 'torture porn' ?

Ok. So I realize that you hate that term... What would be a better term to describe that particular torture/exploitative genre?

Same term we called 'Ilsa Shewolf of the SS', 'Bloodsucking Freaks' and 'Last House' - exploitation films..

I just feel that the term 'Torture porn' is a media construct used to pigeon hole and dismiss certain Horror films...

Philosophy of a knife - Hmmm Wasn`t impressed, infact i found the reenactment quite boring and overly stylised. But that may be because i dont like documentaries made in a film noir kind of way - Though the parts where we are served archive footage and told the story by the narrator and the russian guy who witnessed the atrocities, is quite `interesting`.

As the term was coined by a critic who hated the genre, I suppose you have a valid point. I myself enjoy a lot of these films;Hostel, Saw, Wolf Creek etc. (though I think Philosophy Of A Knife has them all beat for being one of the most disturbing films I've ever seen). I will try to use the term Exploitation in the future.

I know that we've had this conversation before... Without the context, that phrase honestly does make sense to me - A lot of horror is pornographic... And these are torture films... Maybe we can just like other minoritive groups we could just "reclaim" the phrase... ;)

How so? I guess you're meaning people watching for visceral thrills & gore.

Forced Entry would have to come (haha :p) under the banner of pornographic horror.

I think that maybe I was being too general - When I think about how horror may be "pornographic," I think about the sexual nature of penetration, be it stabbing, cutting, etc. I think of exploitation as being pornographic, and a lot of horror is exploitative. When thinking of "torture porn," people are getting penetrated, abused, degraded, exploited for an audience, which is similar to pornography.

I don't know - The association makes sense to me.

If one wanted to steer away from the term "torture porn" (and I do because I respect you and Ferox, who both hate the term), what would you use to describe movies that focus on torture, like Hostel, Men Behind The Sun, Salo, Martyrs, etc? I honestly reach for words when trying to express that genre... Like I feel that it's too simple to say "torture" and too simple to say "exploitation."

Thoughts?

Sure - Everyone makes a big deal about Men Behind the Sun but no one - NO ONE - bats an eye at The Book of Eli!!

It's furist. :mad::mad:

I dunno - but do we really need a term to describe every subgenre?*

The 4 examples you gave I feel are very different types of film - I really don't see MBTS having anything in common with Martyrs. Though Salo and Hostel certainly have certain common themes (sexual sadism - the social Elite being a law onto themselves) the films are are executed so differently I wouldn't consier them the same genre.

I presume when the media use the term they mean a genre where the is little story and the films raison d'etre is to string together violent/sadistic scenes - in the same way (most) traditional porn films are made. As opposed to films that have 'sexual sadism' in them as they alway use Saw as an example of 'Torture Porn' (and theres no sexual elements to it..

With that way of thinking we should start calling old Shaw bros movies 'Fightporn' :-) (and Groucho Marx was a great innovator of 'Chuckleporn'..

Ok, I'm just rambling now...




*With the exception of 'UNDERWATER NAZI ZOMBIES' that genre just had to be named..

I personally think that "torture porn" is the perfect name for this ever expanding genre of movies. Both terms are being used in a more generalized fashion and together forming an instant mental image that perfectly suits the films.

Torture: Not necessarily the act of torture. Just violence. Brutal and in your face. No punches being held at all. More than likely physical violence, but could also mean psychological violence on an extreme level.

Porn: Not necessarily sexual and in many instances, not sexual at all. Just scene after scene strung together by a typically almost non-existent plotline just like your typical XXX porn movie. I don't feel the use of "porn" here has any base in sexual metaphors. It's about the non-stop scenes of a particular type.

So together you have a descriptor for a movie that focuses around brutal violence and not much else. Violence for violence's sake and if there happens to be a bit of a story thrown in it's probably just there to make you not feel quite so guilty about watching an hour and a half of brutal violence.

-----

As for the grouping of Hostel, Martyrs, Men Behind the Sun, and Salo I have to agree, they are radically different movies that really don't have much in common with each other other than the levels of violence, but they could all come under the umbrella of "torture porn" I guess. Hostel and Martyrs are in my mind, quintessential torture porn. Both have the weakest of plots with no real meaning behind them other than an excuse to string scenes of violence together. Men Behind the Sun, while the plot is quite weak is at least very loosely being somewhat documentary in nature. It is a chronicle of what really happened so it dispenses with much of a fabricated plot. Salo is the only one of the four that had an impact on me. I thought about it for days afterward. The ideas of the perceived worth of a human's life and how power can corrupt are quite powerful. Yes, it's a disturbing film to say the least, but I honestly don't think it deserves to be grouped with the others. It actually has meaning and purpose beyond scenes of violence and degradation..

When I hear the term 'torture porn' - what springs to mind is the more extreme BDSM stuff or films make by Insex (is that their name?) not Men Behind the Sun.

I don't think I dismiss the Hostel films as having 'no real meaning behind them' - they are some underlying themes in them: Both films are a criticism of Captalistic Society taken to its extreme where human life is a commodity. There is also a jib torwards how Americans 'use' the rest of the world (on a personal level as a playground for things like sex tourism or on a National level to rape poorer countries for their resources.)

Of course, this all takes a back seat to boobs, blood and torture but its still there. If we can talk about Romero and brainwashing of people by comsumurism than we can as least give Hostel 2 braincells of intellectual thought.

I feel the same about A Serbian Film.

Anyway - I digress..

As I mentioned before - a lot of genre films are this. I really felt that 'Airplane'/'Scary Movie' and 'he Naked Gun' were just an excuse to string a bunch of funny bits together and really lacked a decent plot :-)

Weird Al Fanatic, when you say torture is good only in the sexual aspect, and the rest is evil, I hope you are refering to fiction exclusively. Otherwise you would be a damn rapist.

Ok, it could be BDSM too, but for me is a little suspicious, I know that the thread is about a genre that is about torture, and that the people posting there like that type of things, but I hope it is only in a fictional or consensual area.