it wasn't a theory - it was a specific observation about the 2 franchises i mentioned.

i think you forgot to use your rolling eyes smiley ...

"Well, pardon me all over the place." Robert Mitchum in Cape Fear (1991)

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Vodstok and Rasobas made some good observations.

I did very much enjoy Hellraiser one and two. Though I can't see Pinhead possessing any herioc qualites. As was said, he is more a "force" he acts upons the actions of others to fulfill his role. The question of his morality is the trick though, I never suspected that he would feel morally conflicted about any of his actions, irrespective of how the viewer may feel. He's not a fool though, and sometimes particular in Hellraiser 2 we tend to "root" for him because he is shows that the bad guys can't get away with there villiany, but he does so without any sense of moral compunction, he does what he is required to do and had cool evil looking powers.

I think pinhead is awesome im a fan of the trilogy but not really the rest in the series. I just wish he was in the films more doing more torture!

Ah, the Hellraiser movies, probably my favorite series. I never really thought of the question of Pinhead being a villain or a dark hero, but there is something to that.

In the first 2 Hellraiser films, his character is different than the later films, in which he is a true villain. In the first Hellraiser, he's really just a bounty hunter looking for Frank and doing his job. In the second Hellraiser we find out that Pinhead and the rest of the Cenobites were once human and opened the box just like everyone else and became bound to it. Pinhead even tries to fight against Dr. Channard who is kind of a madman (even for a Cenobite). I think in both these films, but definitely in the second one Pinhead has some humanity and I think could be a dark hero

Btw, Hellraiser 3 sucked! Bloodline was okay, but I thought that 5-8 were really pretty good and rather enjoyed them. I think they really expanded the Hellraiser universe.

Very good post, this is how I view Pinhead. I absolutely see him as a bad guy, or a villain, even if his actions are directed towards those that, like you say, "ask" for it.




I love the Hellraiser films (yes, a couple of them are among my guilty pleasures ;) ), I actually enjoy them all to a degree. I thought Bloodline was the worst of them though.

Yeah, I kind of learn towards a neutral evil for that guy...He'll actually seem impressed if you can one-up him...

I really only think of the first two movies as being "real" Hellraiser movies. The rest just don't fit with the mythology and lore put down by the first two so I try my damn-dest to disregard and forget about them entirely.

Given Pinhead's actions in the first two and especially information in the Books of the Damned comics, Pinhead is neither good or evil. He just is. He is a "soldier" of sorts for Leviathan. He is also an embodiment of Order (the Nightbreed were Chaos.) To the utmost degree that when a young Cenobite suggested they attack the Nightbreed earlier than planned because they were in a weakened state, Pinhead pulled out a huge tome and said that they couldn't attack now because it was written that they would attack in 2 years, 4 months, 17 days, 3 hours, and 52 seconds (or some equally exact time, I can't remember the exact time from the comic.) Which is also why I loathe the third movie. With his human side removed, Pinhead turns completely chaotic and kills randomly. It just doesn't fit.

So while Pinhead is most obviously not "good," nor is he even a "dark hero" (Kristy did basically con the Cenobites into helping her for her own ends) I wouldn't necessarily call him "evil" either. Especially from his own perspective, which is really all that matters when it comes to discussions about good versus evil. He just simply is doing what he must do.

"Especially from his own perspective" I think is an important issue.

The fact the he is not in his own right morally conflicted about the matters hinders calling him evil. There is no malice, or self satisfaction he acts under a sense of "duty" completely alienated from morality.