Abortion: Yay or Nay?

[Egekrusher]

What is your take on abortion? Besides the poll, I'd like to know your detailed feelings on abortion.

[movieman64]

Personally, I think it should only be used in instances of rape, incest, or where needed as a life saving procedure for the woman, (in an ER situation).

Not being a woman, I feel I have no right in restricting a womans rights with regards to her body.

I saw a bumpersticker once that said, " If you can't trust me with a choice. Why would you trust me with a baby!"

I feel I'm a responsible father, I have 3 children whom I love more then anything. It's not easy, most of the time, but we still go on, "laugh or scream".

It's just my opinion, and I respect yours, as I hope you mine.

[Vodstok]

Originally posted by movieman64
Personally, I think it should only be used in instances of rape, incest, or where needed as a life saving procedure for the woman, (in an ER situation).

Not being a woman, I feel I have no right in restricting a womans rights with regards to her body.

I saw a bumpersticker once that said, " If you can't trust me with a choice. Why would you trust me with a baby!"

I feel I'm a responsible father, I have 3 children whom I love more then anything. It's not easy, most of the time, but we still go on, "laugh or scream".

It's just my opinion, and I respect yours, as I hope you mine.

'nuff said. Seems unanamous

[Egekrusher]

I'd like to hear some of the womens opinions on here if at all possible.

[ShankS]

Originally posted by Egekrusher
I'd like to hear some of the womens opinions on here if at all possible.


if I had a sister I'd ask her, but I dont so I cant.

[Vodstok]

Originally posted by Egekrusher
I'd like to hear some of the womens opinions on here if at all possible.

[just kidding]Women have opinions?!?!?!:confused: :eek: [/just kidding]

[Egekrusher]

Originally posted by Vodstok
[just kidding]Women have opinions?!?!?!:confused: :eek: [/just kidding]

Where's Bloodrayne when you need her?

:)

[Stingy Jack]

Well, my thoughts aren't really represented by the options. I'm in favor of abortion (even in cases not involving rape or incest) as long as the fetus is not developed enough to be able to survive outside of the womb. This is what I have decided to be the determining factor in the question as to whether or not a fetus can be considered to be an individual being. If it cannot survive outside of the womb, then it is not an individual being. It is still part of the mother.

My wife and I have used every precaution in the book, and she still got pregnant. This was way back before we were able to adequately support ourselves, let alone a child. Accidents happen, even to people who are careful. And if you force a family to have a child they can't afford, then you are going to create even bigger problems not just to the families, but to society as a whole.

Plus, if you made abortion illegal all together, many women will simply resort to incredibly dangerous methods to abort an unwanted pregnancy. Sure, people may say that it is their bodies to do with as they please, and if they want to risk killing themselves, then let them. But, I think this is a pretty cynical view considering we can provide a safe alternative.

I DO think, however, that there should be limits put on the number of times a woman can have an abortion. Once she has used a clinic twice, on the third visit she should be required to have her tubes tied. This will avoid using the abortion clinics as a form of birth control.

I don't know how other people here feel about this ... and I hope I haven't offended anyone.

[Vodstok]

Sounds reasonable to me, stingy.

[Egekrusher]

Originally posted by Stingy Jack
Well, my thoughts aren't really represented by the options. I'm in favor of abortion (even in cases not involving rape or incest) as long as the fetus is not developed enough to be able to survive outside of the womb. This is what I have decided to be the determining factor in the question as to whether or not a fetus can be considered to be an individual being. If it cannot survive outside of the womb, then it is not an individual being. It is still part of the mother.

My wife and I have used every precaution in the book, and she still got pregnant. This was way back before we were able to adequately support ourselves, let alone a child. Accidents happen, even to people who are careful. And if you force a family to have a child they can't afford, then you are going to create even bigger problems not just to the families, but to society as a whole.

Plus, if you made abortion illegal all together, many women will simply resort to incredibly dangerous methods to abort an unwanted pregnancy. Sure, people may say that it is their bodies to do with as they please, and if they want to risk killing themselves, then let them. But, I think this is a pretty cynical view considering we can provide a safe alternative.

I DO think, however, that there should be limits put on the number of times a woman can have an abortion. Once she has used a clinic twice, on the third visit she should be required to have her tubes tied. This will avoid using the abortion clinics as a form of birth control.

I don't know how other people here feel about this ... and I hope I haven't offended anyone.

My thoughts exactly, though that's a little hard to make a poll option out of.

[Vodstok]

Originally posted by Egekrusher
My thoughts exactly, though that's a little hard to make a poll option out of.

Bullshit, get to work slacker! :D

[newb]

This is like asking a bunch of females if guys should get a vasectomy. Where are all the girls? I personally think it should be a matter of choice. As long as , like Stingy said, its not abused and used as birth control.
Of course if ya wanna really prevent an accidental birth....get married. Ya can't get pregnant if ya aint having SEX.

[Egekrusher]

Originally posted by Vodstok
Bullshit, get to work slacker! :D

http://technologicalwasteland.com/images/gif/painpainpain.gif

[Vodstok]

No no no, do what the Bush administration suggested at the world AIDS convention... Abstinance.


I swear to christ, the people that are THAT against abortion usually are because they know they should have been.....Dumb fucks....

[Stingy Jack]

Originally posted by newb
This is like asking a bunch of females if guys should get a vasectomy. Where are all the girls? I personally think it should be a matter of choice. As long as , like Stingy said, its not abused and used as birth control.
Of course if ya wanna really prevent an accidental birth....get married. Ya can't get pregnant if ya aint having SEX.


Hahahaha! Funny! I'm married, and my wife and I have sex all the time, thank you very much. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to get some more sex.

By the way ... any opinions on my new avatar?

[Vodstok]

I love it. i was just thinking about how it kind of freaks me out. Like mine? :)

[newb]

Originally posted by Stingy Jack
Hahahaha! Funny! I'm married, and my wife and I have sex all the time, thank you very much. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to get some more sex.


Can you get me some...............please.......cool avatar.

[Egekrusher]

I see what it is now upon closer inspection. However, it looks like a red headed skull at first glance.

[Stingy Jack]

Originally posted by Vodstok
I love it. i was just thinking about how it kind of freaks me out. Like mine? :)

I can't figure yours out. It looks like a guy in a ski mask and goggles getting his head slammed into the camera.

[Vodstok]

LOL... Sorry. Its the Archvile. Its a creature from Doom 2 that has made it into Doom3, where my gif is from.

Whoops. i dont even knwo my damn Doom.... Its a revenant:

http://www.planetdoom.com/images/characters/new_revenant1.jpg

[newb]

Originally posted by Vodstok
LOL... Sorry. Its the Archvile. Its a creature from Doom 2 that has made it into Doom3, where my gif is from.

Whoops. i dont even knwo my damn Doom.... Its a revenant:

http://www.planetdoom.com/images/characters/new_revenant1.jpg

AHHHH DOOM 3 .Its being released just in time for my 2 week vacation.

[Stingy Jack]

Is your avatar supposed to be black and white? Because it still looks like a guy in a ski mask to me.

[bwind22]

I think that if you are mature enough to take on the responsibility of having sex, you should be able to deal with the consequences. If you really don't want to get pregnant, then close your fucking legs, skank! Don't go around fucking and sucking every dude you meet and then go get abortions when you get knocked up. People like that make me sick!

Whether Vod likes it or not, abstinence IS the only way to be 100% sure, so if you aren't ready for the risk, don't have sex. (Not to mention the diseases that are out there nowadays that can kill you or worse, make your naughty bits turn black and shriveled until they fall right off.)

I'm sure you're all glad that your mother chose to give you life instead of aborting your little infant ass and leaving to be tossed in the trashcan.

In Stingy's scenario, where a family that is financially unable to provide for a baby becomes pregnant unexpectedly, there's always the option of adoption. There's thousands of nice, caring folks that would love to take care of your child and provide for it like it was their own. Why kill the baby when there's a family one town over that could give it a wonderful life?

I think abortion should be outlawed with the exception of cases nonconsentual sex/rape/incest or if the mother's life is danger. (And even then it should only be AN option, not THE option.)

[Stingy Jack]

bwind22 ... I respect you opinion, but I think it is unrealistic at best.

First of all, saying that someone should "deal with the consequences" of unprotected sex doesn't sound like something someone would say who is actually concerned for the welfare of the kid. If you force a woman to give birth to a child that she does not want, she will view the child exactly as you termed it: a "consequence", a "punishment" for doing something she shouldn't have been doing to begin with. If a person is too irresponsible to have protected sex, then what makes you think they are responsible enough to raise a child? Remember, these are the very same types of people that make you sick, as you say. No, a child raised by such a person would live a very horrible life, I think. Not to mention the fact that the rest of us taxpayers will have to support these unwanted kids.

Second, abstinence is all great in theory, but people are going to have sex regardless. You can't stop it, no matter how much you educate. So, you might as well come up with a better, more realistic solution.

And third, it is not as easy to find a family that will take your child as you may think. Orphanges are full of children who have lived there all their lives, waiting for somone to adopt them. Many of these children will end up going into the world never having known anyone they could call a mom or dad. If people gave up all of their unwanted babies to adoption agencies, we would have a HUGE problem on our hands. There would be far too many kids to find homes for. Far too many. Not to mention the horrible burden the mother has to go through, both physically and emotionally, during the nine months she carries that child to term. AND the financial burden on the family. You could say that they should not have had sex to begin with. But, I refer you to my second point.

Besides, what if it gets to the point where overpopulation is actually going to become a serious concern? Would you change your views then?

[bwind22]

Originally posted by Stingy Jack
bwind22 ... I respect you opinion, but I think it is unrealistic at best.

First of all, saying that someone should "deal with the consequences" of unprotected sex doesn't sound like something someone would say who is actually concerned for the welfare of the kid. If you force a woman to give birth to a child that she does not want, she will view the child exactly as you termed it: a "consequence", a "punishment" for doing something she shouldn't have been doing to begin with. If a person is too irresponsible to have protected sex, then what makes you think they are responsible enough to raise a child? Remember, these are the very same types of people that make you sick, as you say. No, a child raised by such a person would live a very horrible life, I think. Not to mention the fact that the rest of us taxpayers will have to support these unwanted kids.

Second, abstinence is all great in theory, but people are going to have sex regardless. You can't stop it, no matter how much you educate. So, you might as well come up with a better, more realistic solution.

And third, it is not as easy to find a family that will take your child as you may think. Orphanges are full of children who have lived there all their lives, waiting for somone to adopt them. Many of these children will end up going into the world never having known anyone they could call a mom or dad. If people gave up all of their unwanted babies to adoption agencies, we would have a HUGE problem on our hands. There would be far too many kids to find homes for. Far too many. Not to mention the horrible burden the mother has to go through, both physically and emotionally, during the nine months she carries that child to term. AND the financial burden on the family. You could say that they should not have had sex to begin with. But, I refer you to my second point.

Besides, what if it gets to the point where overpopulation is actually going to become a serious concern? Would you change your views then?

No. My views wouldn't/won't change on this one because I believe that life begins at conception. To me abortion is murder. My responses are numbered in accordance with yours...

1- It is a consequence. It isn't a punishment. There's a big difference between what those two words mean, and maybe I was unclear how I worded it before...

IF you have sex (protected or non)... a possible outcome (consequence) is that you will have an unwanted pregnancy. If you can not accept that possibility, then you should not be having sex. Plain and simple.

I would contend that having, even a poor poverty stricken homeless welfare life would be better than being cut up and tossed into a garbage can before you even got out the birth canal, but maybe that's just my opinion.

2- I never said abstinence was the 'solution', but it is the only 100% sure way to avoid pregnancy.

3- The orphange thing, I would need to look into a bit more. If there are so many kids waiting to be adopted, then it doesn't make any sense to me why two ( 2 married couples) of my parents friends have been on adoption waiting lists for over 3 years. Like I said, I'll have to investigate that one a little bit. Something doesn't make sense there.

[Stingy Jack]

Yes, I may need to look into the number of unadopted kids myself. I don't understand why there are people on waiting lists while, at the same time, there are about two dozen faces on the adoption wall at Wendy's ... kids of all ages.

But, if you view abortion as murder (which, technically, it isn't. Murder is a crime. Abortion is not), then why would you say it is okay to perform an abortion in cases of nonconsentual sex/rape/incest? It certainly isn't the fault of the child! Is it not murder, in these cases? After all, the woman could still up the child for adoption.

As far as incest goes ... what if it is consentual sex between brother and sister? Would you say it is okay to abort because the child could be born with some mental or physical impairments? And if so, can a family abort a child they know will be born with mental and physical impairments even if it is not the result of incest?

[bwind22]

It's a moral question, not legal. I disagree with a lot of what goes on in this country even though it's legal and I fully support other stuff that is not legal.

I personally dont think it's ever okay. But if a 13 year old girl got raped and became pregnant, it's a better arguement for abortion than some skank that cant keep her legs closed and uses it as birth control because unprotected sex 'feels better'. (I know this girl. She's had 4 abortions and she's 23 years old. She makes me sick. Fat, rude, obnoxious, disgusting pig!)

As I said before, in extreme cases, it could be considered as AN option (Not one that I agree with, but I am open minded enough to know that the world does revolve around the way I think things should be.) but not THE option.

Anyways, I gotta run. We can continue this later if you want...

cya

[Freddy Krueger.]

Personally, I think abortion should only be used if the woman was rape, incest, or where needed as a life saving procedure. But other wises, heres what I have to say:

A few ways to prevent pregnancy:

1. Condom
2. Pill
3. Anal
4. Don't fucking fuck dumbass
5. Don't dress in that tight little skirt and walk all sezy and "you know you want this but you can't have this" way. If you do, you should already tell the doctor you've been raped.

Y'know, I've never herd of a dude being raped before... I know why. A woman could get fucked ANY time. All they have to do is bend over and BAM. But us men have to go though dating, buying presents, laughing at their stupid jokes, and talk to them. Not that I really mind doing this (Well, part of me doesn't mind... damn split personality) but it seems kinda unfair.

[nine9]

Well I voted, but am keeping silent. :)

[bloodrayne]

Nay

[Stingy Jack]

Originally posted by nine9
Well I voted, but am keeping silent. :)

That sucks.

[nine9]

Originally posted by Stingy Jack
That sucks.

Some topics are just to controversial and sensitive. I really did have to participate though.

There are just too many unique situations to judge.

I CAN tell you though that I am strong on the opinion I have

[wufong]

abortion is murder, plain and simple.

[feral cat]

Flame me if you want, but I think its 100% the woman’s right to do as she feels fit for herself and the child ... I have no time for sanctimonious interfering people when it comes to this subject you look after YOUR body and YOUR kids and let them look after theirs ... Its a very hard decision for a woman and I really doubt any one (except the most backward), see it as a form of birth control! Its all very well saying its wrong in all cases but unless you are prepared to look after all these unwanted kids yourself then really you should get on with your owns lives and stop interfering in the personal decisions of others!

[Preacher]

Think i'm pro-choice but only in individual cases. Would try and promote adoption or fostering more maybe.

Dow know what things are like in the US but here in the UK I still think the biggest problem is that there are still too many underage kids having unprotected sex. There are parts of this country where the average age for first time mothers is below sixteen. Now i dow know bout you lot but i couldnt even support myself when i was sixteen. Think this problem shud be adressed as i expect many abortions these days are very young people.

Preacher x

[bwind22]

Originally posted by feral cat
Flame me if you want, but I think its 100% the woman’s right to do as she feels fit for herself and the child ... I have no time for sanctimonious interfering people when it comes to this subject you look after YOUR body and YOUR kids and let them look after theirs ... Its a very hard decision for a woman and I really doubt any one (except the most backward), see it as a form of birth control! Its all very well saying its wrong in all cases but unless you are prepared to look after all these unwanted kids yourself then really you should get on with your owns lives and stop interfering in the personal decisions of others!


That's really good looking out for the kid by the mom.

"Hey kid. I can't keep my legs closed and now I'm pregnant with you. Sorry, but I'm going to make my choice to never let you make a single choice of your own in your entire life by killing you before you are even born."

Yeah. Real loving.

[feral cat]

Originally posted by bwind22
That's really good looking out for the kid by the mom.

"Hey kid. I can't keep my legs closed and now I'm pregnant with you. Sorry, but I'm going to make my choice to never let you make a single choice of your own in your entire life by killing you before you are even born."

Yeah. Real loving.
How old are you? (I don't mean that offensively), just that the “legs closed” statement is not very in tune with the world we live in today. I am not pro or against abortion, it’s a sad and difficult choice for those involved and they don't need me to come along and judge them!
If it was band it would still happen, I have worked with adults with learning difficulties many into there 50's and a large percentage where the result of failed "back street" abortions, they went on to spend there life in care where many where sexually abused by there "Care workers" and or "Priests". Life is not always as black and white as you seem to think it is! How ever I respect your opinion and I hope you never face this decision!

[bwind22]

I'm 24. And 'no', I'm not always politically correct. I call 'em as I see 'em and sometimes that offends people.

If I ever had to 'face this decision', it would be the easiest choice I've ever made in my life. Hmmm... To kill my baby or to not kill my baby... that is the question. My answer should be obvious.

I think anyone that has an abortion should be euthanized as soon as they become the slightest bit of a burden on someone else. I mean, that's what they would do right? If they were suddenly burdened with a 'problem' they didn't want, they would just kill it and be rid of the problem right? It only seems fair.

[feral cat]

I can't agree with your views bwind22, but you put them in a fair and polite way so I respect them!
My point is, its not just about being alive, its about quality of life, those people I looked after had spend terrible unwanted lives, being abused and unloved ... was it really worth it just for the sake of it! I agree once you are born you should be looked after no matter what the burden on society, but that’s just not the way it is.

Funny thing the hard core pro lifers are also the most against welfare ... these people need to make up there minds if we are going to force everyone to go through the full term and have children then WE as a society have to get together and pay for them we can't have it both ways!

Not everyone is in a nice situation where the choice is so clear; if I was 13 years old and a homeless junkie having a baby does not seem such a caring thing to do … but each to their own opinion!

[bloodrayne]

Originally posted by Egekrusher
Where's Bloodrayne when you need her?

:) I don't really think that you would care much for my opinion on this subject, Ege...It doesn't exactly set with the majority (of course most of my opinions and general way of thinking do not)...But, if you really wanna know...My feelings on this subject have already been expressed quite nicely by Bwind and much to my surprise, Wufong...I would like to add that I agree 100% that a woman has every right to do whatever she wishes to HER body...If she chooses to cut her arm off, that's her business, but a baby is NOT a part of a woman's body...Any first year anatomy student can tell you that :rolleyes: ...and I don't think anyone has a right to decide to destroy another human being's body, even a baby's...as for the legal/illegal issue...The participants of Roe versus Wade (which is WHY it is legal) are so appalled NOW, because of what they have done, that they are seeking to overturn the ruling nearly every day, even though it isn't possible...Look into it

[Egekrusher]

So you don't believe in it, even in extreme circumstances such as rape or incest? If you really think about it, do you believe that you could live with a reminder of what happened to you every single day? Personally, every time I looked at that child it would remind me of what had happened, and I would grow to resent him/her.

[Vodstok]

I have made my feelings on this one clear months ago when this subject turned into a flame war with Vamprocker, who started suggesting the pro-choicers might deserve to be blown up.

Murder or not, making it illegal solves nothing and hurts more people than it helps. i have been personally affected by this (no, i was not the father), and it is very sad and sickening. The woman who had it is now the mother of 2 and loves her kids more than most, but she wasnt ready at the time.

Do i think she did it for the wrong reason? Absolutely. The same person has a daughter she will never meet because that one was adopted. SHould she close her legs? Hell yes! Will she? probably not. Birth control, plain and simple. We need to stop letting religions tell their members to NOT use it. Sorry, but the pope is an idiot. Sex advice should not come from a virgin in his 70s, end of story.


Absinance is a wonderful, unrealistic and completely implausible dream. And i say Bush is an idiot for stating that is "the way" to prevent unwanted pregnancy and AIDS. Sure, it works (like stingy said) on paper, but so does communism, which also doesnt work in real life. Education, and readily available birth control is the ONLY way. Abortion is an option, just not a very good one.

My practical side is what i use to make my decisions. Dont think for a second that i am not moral. BUT, in 20 years when we are struggling against inflation and lack of resources, i dont want to see ANYONE with a pro-life sticker complaining about the situation. The last major depression we had was in the 30s. We are due for another real soon. The 2030s are less than 30 years away now.

Let me put it this way. If someone has low self-esteem, they SHOULD opt for councilling and/or a support group for help. But many/most dont. they go out and get their tits fixed, and their gut liposuctioned, and then feel better about themselves. I hate to draw parralels, but its the same thing. Also, what tends to get ignored is that women dont just walk in and say "I'm pregnant! I need and abortion!" and then the doctor jumps out and yells "Fire up the vacuum, lets see if we can kill this kid and get this slut out the door."

There is a great deal of counciling that they are at least SUPPOSED to be put through to see if this is really the decision they want to make. Perhaps rather than blowing up clinics, the pro-lifers should be explaining WHY they want to help these girls with their problem. (and actually help, not stick a picture of a dead fetus in her face and call her a fucking murderer when she hasnt even DONE it yet)

But it is easier to sit on a high horse and condemn people for making what is usually the hardest decision in their life... They never seem to want to help, just point the finger.

And they are not all "Skanks"... What about a nice girl who goes out with a guy, finally sleeps with him and gets knocked up? Could have even been wearing protection and the condomn broke. Continue to believe what you believe, because you will anyway, but THINK about the situation more, rather than just writing off as an "easy" fix for sluts and whores who cant be bothered to wear a rubber. Dont condemn the innocent majority for the failings of others.


And for the record, i wish women would more often choose to have the kid, or be more careful, but i am a guy. Its not something i will ever have to deal with personally.

[Egekrusher]

The topic doesn't bode well with me either. I'm as sterile as latex gloves. I wish I could have children, but it will never happen.

If I had the choice, I would definitely have children. But even with that counting against me, I still think women should have the choice.

[orangestar]

Not all that many females have voted, so I'll say what I think.

I think that women should only have abortions when rape, incest, or a risk to the mother occurs. I know that if I was raped (especially now, at age 15) that not only would I not be responsible enough to have a child, but I wouldnt want a constant reminder of being raped.

I think if your condom breaks, you should have to deal with it. That sounds more harsh than I wanted it too, but you get the general idea. Adoption is one option, but keeping it will always be the best option IMO.

[Gothic-chick]

I think it is such bullshit when people use abortion as a form of birth control. Seems everyone who murders their baby because they weren't ready, or didn't have enough money, or blah blah blah comes up with their own rational for why they killed their child... WHY IS IT THAT THEY THINK WHEN THEY DON'T WANT IT, IT"S JUST TISSUE AND WHEN THEY DO WANT IT IT'S A BABY?????

As a woman who has had children I can tell you that from the moment of conception, that baby is alive and growing. I've heard my Childs heartbeat and seen ultrasound picks as early as 4 weeks into pregnancy.

I think it is the saddest thing in the world to hear someone say they had an abortion because they weren't ready to have a baby. WTF? It has been 13 years since the birth of my fist child. (totally unplanned) During that time my husband have had sex a million times, our birth control being my dude knows how to control himself if you get my point.

Only when we decided to have another child did I become pregnant again. It only took one try because I know my body and when I'm ovulating. It's simple science people, 14 days after the first day of your period, give or take a few in either direction.
Abortion is not birth control and anyone who uses it because they're too selfish, or stupid to prevent pregnancy should be ashamed of themselves and I am sure at one time on their life when they finally grow up and realize what life is all about will live in a world of pain and regret for killing their child.

[orangestar]

Originally posted by Gothic-chick
I think it is such bullshit when people use abortion as a form of birth control. Seems everyone who murders their baby because they weren't ready, or didn't have enough money, or blah blah blah comes up with their own rational for why they killed their child... WHY IS IT THAT THEY THINK WHEN THEY DON'T WANT IT, IT"S JUST TISSUE AND WHEN THEY DO WANT IT IT'S A BABY?????

As a woman who has had children I can tell you that from the moment of conception, that baby is alive and growing. I've heard my Childs heartbeat and seen ultrasound picks as early as 4 weeks into pregnancy.

I think it is the saddest thing in the world to hear someone say they had an abortion because they weren't ready to have a baby. WTF? It has been 13 years since the birth of my fist child. (totally unplanned) During that time my husband have had sex a million times, our birth control being my dude knows how to control himself if you get my point.

Only when we decided to have another child did I become pregnant again. It only took one try because I know my body and when I'm ovulating. It's simple science people, 14 days after the first day of your period, give or take a few in either direction.
Abortion is not birth control and anyone who uses it because they're too selfish, or stupid to prevent pregnancy should be ashamed of themselves and I am sure at one time on their life when they finally grow up and realize what life is all about will live in a world of pain and regret for killing their child.

What about being raped when your 14? (just an example)

[Vodstok]

Abortion is not birth control and anyone who uses it because they're too selfish, or stupid to prevent pregnancy should be ashamed of themselves and I am sure at one time on their life when they finally grow up and realize what life is all about will live in a world of pain and regret for killing their child.

This is exactly the point i was trying to make. The women who have an abortion and arent severely affected by it are rare and emotionally bankrupt anyway. They do not DESERVE to have kids.

However, i still think they should have the option. America is about freedom, and the only person who suffers in most of these cases is the kid. I would be intersted to see how many unwanted children become victims of pedophiles, if for no other reason than those sick fuckers manage to molest kids from happy, loving homes. Just imagine if the kid's parents dont care what happens to them?

[Vodstok]

Originally posted by orangestar
What about being raped when your 14? (just an example)

Just tell the rapist to practice abstinance :rolleyes:

"Do her in the butt, sicko. That way you still get to dominate, and she doesnt have to deal with the whole messy 'abortion' issue."

Sorry if that was a bit severe. But Orangestar brongs up a good point. i imagine a girl inher early teens, if forced to have the klid, would kill herself.

[Gothic-chick]

Originally posted by orangestar
What about being raped when your 14? (just an example)

I am personally totally against abortion for any reason.

My daughter is 13 and if she were pregnant from rape or stupidity I would not allow her to kill her child. It would be a very tough for her to go through pregnancy and birth at such a young age, but my husband and I would be there helping her every step of the way. Life isn't always easy and murdering a innocent baby is not going to make life any easier for anyone.

I was raped when I was in my teens. I was not pregnant but if I had been I wouldn't have killed my baby. I would have loved that baby as much as the children I have with my husband. A life is a life , no matter how conceived.

I will never think abortion is ok. I think in this country people are abusing it daily and it is so sad..... If someone doesn't want to be a parent then use some common sense birth control. There are tons of options out there. Accidents do happen but that's the risk you take when you have sex. Which is why people shouldn't be having sex when they are immature and irresponsible which is any age that someone would get pregnant and decide to kill their baby.

people are or should be responsible for everything they think, say, or do... that includes having unprotected sex and getting pregnant.. I could go on and on and on.........

[Vodstok]

You obviously deserve to be a mother, but not everyone could handle having the kid. Is till believe that many many young girls inthis situation would commit suicide. Not everyone comes froma loving family. I know plenty where the girl would be blamed for the incident.

But once again, I'm just a guy. it isnt my say.

I am aslo for responsibility. Just dig up any post i have made about blaming entertainment for tragedies.....:mad:

But a rape victim is beyond responsibility. Have your beliefs, but you need to accept that others have theirs. I think Orangestar is correct in her way of thinking, which is pretty lucid, especially considering her age.

[Egekrusher]

So you would have her live with this for the rest of her life? You're condemning your own child to a life of misery. I know you're going to argue that she would be condemning her own child to the same fate as well.... but she wouldn't be. The child would be dead, without ever having formed her first thought. They wouldn't know that they were dead. They were never really alive in the first place.

In essence, you'd be trading your daughters life for your granddaughters. Good one.

[Stingy Jack]

I still have yet to hear how these people who are calling abortion "murder" can say that it is okay under extreme circumstances like "rape" or "incest". If a girl gets raped at 13 and becomes pregnant, is not aborting the child still murder? Or is it something else? If it is still murder, then you cannot say that abortion is wrong because it is "murder", because you believe that murder is okay at times. If it is something else, I would like to know what that is. I would like to know how it changes from murder, to not murder simply by the method that the child was conceived. Also, if a pregnant woman accidentally fell down the stairs and killed her child, should she be charged with manslaughter?

I think gothic-chick is the only pro-lifer here who has fully realized her views (although I disagree with them). When I speak of abortion, I don't speak in terms of morality. People are so fucked up in general when it comes to morals that preaching morality is like commanding a rock to turn into a flower. When it comes to things like abortion, I have to resort to utilitarianism. Abortion is wrong, yes. But I think it is the lesser of the two evils. People have been aborting their unwanted pregnancies for EVER, through all sorts of hideous and dangerous methods. And they will continue to do so, whether it is legal or not. But, say you threaten mothers with the death penalty if they abort their children, and so we have more and more women opting to give birth to their unwanted babies. The result:

1. A surplus of unwanted kids up for adoption. They'll be bursting orphanages at the seams.

2. Children living in homes with parents who do not want them. They will grow up abused, unloved, and will probably become criminals.

3. Children living in homes with parents who can't afford them. Suddenly MY taxes go through the roof so that I can help support all these kids. And, after a while, I won't be able to support MY own family!

And that's just for starters. Abortion may be immoral (I am undecided on that issue), but I think forcing unwanted kids to burst into our society may be even worse. In the first case, you are harming a single life. In the second, you are affecting entire communities, if not the whole nation. Now, some of you may say "You can't place a value on a life. You can't say that 2 lives are worth more than 1." Maybe you'd be right. But I do not think that 1 life should be able to exist if it calls for the misery of countless other lives who had no control over the situation to begin with.

[Gothic-chick]

Originally posted by Egekrusher
So you would have her live with this for the rest of her life? You're condemning your own child to a life of misery. I know you're going to argue that she would be condemning her own child to the same fate as well.... but she wouldn't be. The child would be dead, without ever having formed her first thought. They wouldn't know that they were dead. They were never really alive in the first place.

In essence, you'd be trading your daughters life for your granddaughters. Good one.


I disagree totally.... and I think everything you just said is stupid.

Misery would be your mother making you kill an innocent child. Mothers don't look at their children with resentment. they look at them with gratitude for making them see what life is all about, for making them become better people.They look at them with hope and love. Not condemnation. I can't speak for all rape victims but I can say for myself I don't ever think about it. It was a long time ago. It wasn't my fault I was in the wrong place at the wrong time and I would never even consider wasting even a moment of my life dwelling on it.


what you said about a baby never being alive in the first place.... that's ridiculous! from the moment of conception that baby is alive and growing just not breathing air yet. That baby is alive the very second some bastard rips him from the walls of his selfish mothers womb.

[Egekrusher]

Originally posted by Gothic-chick
I disagree totally.... and I think everything you just said is stupid.

Misery would be your mother making you kill an innocent child. Mothers don't look at their children with resentment. they look at them with gratitude for making them see what life is all about, for making them become better people.They look at them with hope and love. Not condemnation. I can't speak for all rape victims but I can say for myself I don't ever think about it. It was a long time ago. It wasn't my fault I was in the wrong place at the wrong time and I would never even consider wasting even a moment of my life dwelling on it.


what you said about a baby never being alive in the first place.... that's ridiculous! from the moment of conception that baby is alive and growing just not breathing air yet. That baby is alive the very second some bastard rips him from the walls of his selfish mothers womb.

You've never had a child under those circumstances, so you couldn't POSSIBLY know.

Also, I wasn't saying that you should force your child to abort. I'm saying that you should let her decide, and support whatever decision she makes.

[Vodstok]

Resorting to name calling will make this get out of hand very quickly. Stingy was right, you have thought out your reasons, which is good.

But one thing you need to understand is that most people out there are not as compassionate as you are. i also do not agree with you, but i will say you sound like an amazingly good person. Please dont let your emotions drag you into flaming.

[Gothic-chick]

Originally posted by Vodstok
Resorting to name calling will make this get out of hand very quickly. Stingy was right, you have thought out your reasons, which is good.

But one thing you need to understand is that most people out there are not as compassionate as you are. i also do not agree with you, but i will say you sound like an amazingly good person. Please dont let your emotions drag you into flaming.


Points taken... thanks!

[Egekrusher]

That wasn't name calling. I'm a master name caller, but I never resort to it. Hopefully, no one here ever has to see that side of me.

I'm in one FUCK of a mood today.

[orangestar]

Originally posted by Gothic-chick
I am personally totally against abortion for any reason.

My daughter is 13 and if she were pregnant from rape or stupidity I would not allow her to kill her child. It would be a very tough for her to go through pregnancy and birth at such a young age, but my husband and I would be there helping her every step of the way. Life isn't always easy and murdering a innocent baby is not going to make life any easier for anyone.

I was raped when I was in my teens. I was not pregnant but if I had been I wouldn't have killed my baby. I would have loved that baby as much as the children I have with my husband. A life is a life , no matter how conceived.

I will never think abortion is ok. I think in this country people are abusing it daily and it is so sad..... If someone doesn't want to be a parent then use some common sense birth control. There are tons of options out there. Accidents do happen but that's the risk you take when you have sex. Which is why people shouldn't be having sex when they are immature and irresponsible which is any age that someone would get pregnant and decide to kill their baby.

people are or should be responsible for everything they think, say, or do... that includes having unprotected sex and getting pregnant.. I could go on and on and on.........

Just a hypothetical question: What would happen if your daughter got pregnant, either accidentally or by being raped, and she told you that she wanted to have an abortion. I mean if she was really really adamant about getting one, she had thought it through in a mature way and came to the decision that her baby would not have a good life growing up this way. Would you still force her to have the child?

[bwind22]

-Whoever brought up the fact that the Roe vs. Wade complaintants are now against it, made a very good point.

-I would think the emotional scars of having an abortion (killing your child) would be much tougher to go through life with, than a beautiful child that happens to be the product of a rape. (Don't get me wrong, rape is horrible, but it's not the babies fault.)

-We have waaay too many single moms in this day and age and that's sad. It really does make it tough on them to raise a kid by themself. This is exactly the point where I place the fair share of the blame on the father. It takes two to tango, so if you get her knocked up, you damn well better be there for her and your kid.

-Stingy, I am against abortion in all cases, meaning I, myself, would never support one in any event. I do, however, see the arguement behind it being considered for cases of rape, incest, and mother's health issues. I don't agree with it, and I wouldn't choose it for myself, but in those instances, I do believe it should be up to the mother & father (if applicable). Those are special circumstances.


Basically it boils down to this....

With the countless different forms of birth control (natural family planning like Gothic Chick said, condoms, pills, operations, patches, etc.) out there, there really is no excuse for an unplanned pregnancy other than laziness, stupidity or immaturity. If you are having sex, there is a chance you will end up with an unplanned pregnancy. There are a large number of things you can do to avoid this outcome, however many people are too laxy, stupid, immature to take the neccesary precautions.

That is the real problem. Too many people having sex that are not prepared to deal with the responsibility that goes along with it.

[Vodstok]

Originally posted by bwind22

That is the real problem. Too many people having sex that are not prepared to deal with the responsibility that goes along with it.

I think you just made history, bwind. A point that neither side of this debate can argue with.

[HappyCamper]

i'm personally against abortion in all cases, but heres why:

A) One of my best friends is the result of a rape.

B) I personally think it's immoral.

C) If my girlfriend were to become pregnant I wouldn't want here to have an abortion (it's my baby too!)

I am however a Libertarian, which means I believe that it's up to the individual person to decide whether an abortion is immoral. I would never force my girlfriend not to have an abortion, I would just advise her against it, adoption in my opinion is a far better option.

[Gothic-chick]

Originally posted by orangestar
Just a hypothetical question: What would happen if your daughter got pregnant, either accidentally or by being raped, and she told you that she wanted to have an abortion. I mean if she was really really adamant about getting one, she had thought it through in a mature way and came to the decision that her baby would not have a good life growing up this way. Would you still force her to have the child?

I wouldn't have to, She wouldn't ever consider abortion an option. I am her mother and because of that fact she has been taught the same values and morals I believe in.

Also she is way too young to make a mature decision. My job as a parent is to guide her and help her to make choices she is too young to make herself. That's one of the things that separate children from adults, the ability to see the consequences of our actions and thinking about the future.

Having said all of that it's hard to answer your question since my daughter would never make that choice. But hypothetically speaking I would never ever under any circumstances let her kill her baby.

[Egekrusher]

I really regret making this thread. If only I could take it back and not have to hear all of your opinions. I think most of you are very open minded... but there are some that it seems would have us go back to the Dark Ages morally.

[fluffho]

my friend just had an abortion at 6 weeks.

she said 'yeh i saw the baby. it was a little worm. but it was my worm'

made her sad but now way in hell was she gonna have that kid. she still has 2 years of college left

[Gothic-chick]

Originally posted by Egekrusher
You've never had a child under those circumstances, so you couldn't POSSIBLY know.

Also, I wasn't saying that you should force your child to abort. I'm saying that you should let her decide, and support whatever decision she makes.






No I have never had a child resulting from rape. But I was raped and had the possibility of being pregnant and plenty of time to think about it before knowing I wasn't. I can say with absolute certainty I would NOT have chosen abortion.

A 13 year old girl is nowhere near mature enough to make a decision like that. As a parent I would and should make it for her. It's cut and dry for me and my family. Abortion is never an option no matter the conception.

I know someone who got pregnant at 17 and didn't tell her parents.She didn't tell anyone at all except the father. She thought she made the right choice and at 17 walked into a clinic where 30 year old adults took her baby from her body with no parental consent.

To this day she suffers the agonizing pain of what she did. Her regret is not telling her parents who she knew would not have allowed it to happen. She told me about it all when she was 38. She is 40 years old now with no children. She feels undeserving of being a mother.

It ruined her life totally. She gave up on all of her dreams and ambitions. All because of that decision she was way too young to make on her own. She is married to the father of that baby. Their lives are a total mess. They agonize daily about the choice they made. They think they will burn in hell for what they did.

She tells me that they have both had nightmares of that baby crying for them. They see that baby in all of their neices and nephews.

That someone is my sister. I love her to death and she killed her baby. Plain and simple she killed her baby. Nothing will ever change my mind about abortion. It will and does ruin lives.

[Gothic-chick]

Originally posted by fluffho
my friend just had an abortion at 6 weeks.

she said 'yeh i saw the baby. it was a little worm. but it was my worm'

made her sad but now way in hell was she gonna have that kid. she still has 2 years of college left

what a selfish and stupid girl.......

[Stingy Jack]

Originally posted by Gothic-chick
No I have never had a child resulting from rape. But I was raped and had the possibility of being pregnant and plenty of time to think about it before knowing I wasn't. I can say with absolute certainty I would NOT have chosen abortion.

A 13 year old girl is nowhere near mature enough to make a decision like that. As a parent I would and should make it for her. It's cut and dry for me and my family. Abortion is never an option no matter the conception.

I know someone who got pregnant at 17 and didn't tell her parents.She didn't tell anyone at all except the father. She thought she made the right choice and at 17 walked into a clinic where 30 year old adults took her baby from her body with no parental consent.

To this day she suffers the agonizing pain of what she did. Her regret is not telling her parents who she knew would not have allowed it to happen. She told me about it all when she was 38. She is 40 years old now with no children. She feels undeserving of being a mother.

It ruined her life totally. She gave up on all of her dreams and ambitions. All because of that decision she was way too young to make on her own. She is married to the father of that baby. Their lives are a total mess. They agonize daily about the choice they made. They think they will burn in hell for what they did.

She tells me that they have both had nightmares of that baby crying for them. They see that baby in all of their neices and nephews.

That someone is my sister. I love her to death and she killed her baby. Plain and simple she killed her baby. Nothing will ever change my mind about abortion. It will and does ruin lives.

Meh... As I have already said, my wife got pregnant once before we were ready to have a child. We were careful, used birth control, but it happened. We could not afford to have the baby, and we also could not afford her taking time off from work to carry the baby to term and go through recovery. We both agreed that abortion was the only option, under the circumstances. And we went through with it. She does not regret it, she is not miserable, our lives are not destroyed ... at least, not in the way they would have been had we decided to keep the baby. And this is when we both mature enough to make decisions on our own. You can call us stupid, lazy, or what have you. But, the fact remains that we were careful. We used birth control, and it fucking happened anyway. And don't you sit there and tell me that I should not have sex with my wife if I wasn't ready to have a baby. Do you plan to have a kid every time you have sex with your spouse? Remember, we were protected! So, what's good for some people is not for others. Just because your friend feels she made the wrong choice, and allows herself to dwell in that misery, does not mean that the service is not helpful for others.

[Egekrusher]

Originally posted by Gothic-chick
No I have never had a child resulting from rape. But I was raped and had the possibility of being pregnant and plenty of time to think about it before knowing I wasn't. I can say with absolute certainty I would NOT have chosen abortion.

A 13 year old girl is nowhere near mature enough to make a decision like that. As a parent I would and should make it for her. It's cut and dry for me and my family. Abortion is never an option no matter the conception.

I know someone who got pregnant at 17 and didn't tell her parents.She didn't tell anyone at all except the father. She thought she made the right choice and at 17 walked into a clinic where 30 year old adults took her baby from her body with no parental consent.

To this day she suffers the agonizing pain of what she did. Her regret is not telling her parents who she knew would not have allowed it to happen. She told me about it all when she was 38. She is 40 years old now with no children. She feels undeserving of being a mother.

It ruined her life totally. She gave up on all of her dreams and ambitions. All because of that decision she was way too young to make on her own. She is married to the father of that baby. Their lives are a total mess. They agonize daily about the choice they made. They think they will burn in hell for what they did.

She tells me that they have both had nightmares of that baby crying for them. They see that baby in all of their neices and nephews.

That someone is my sister. I love her to death and she killed her baby. Plain and simple she killed her baby. Nothing will ever change my mind about abortion. It will and does ruin lives.

That is YOUR choice and YOUR opinions. The fact that you would abandon your sister because of that speaks volumes about what you are really like. You are just as selfish as the people you claim to hate.

I didn't start the name calling, YOU did. And if you think that you'll finish it, you are DEAD wrong.

[Egekrusher]

Originally posted by Gothic-chick
what a selfish and stupid girl.......

See my last post for my thoughts on that. You feel the need to aggrivate and agitate the situation even more than it already is? WHY? You don't know this girl, and you certainly don't know the person that made this post. Yet you just insulted both of them with your reply.

I have a feeling you're not even really a goth chick. You may wish you were, but that's just not the case. You sound as if you were 500 years old.

[Egekrusher]

I know I said I regretted making this thread/flame war. But I will back my opinions, and the opinions of the people I consider to be my friends, to the bitter end.

Gothic-chick, you just made yourself an enemy. Congratulations. I'm the last person you want to battle.

[Candy Man]

All I knows is my babys momma be always sweatin me.
I wish her moms had a abortion. Dam.

[fluffho]

one word

perception

there are is no 'is'. just our concept of what 'is'

to one abortion is no big deal to another its murder. things happen for a reason. what about if jeffrey dahmers mother decided to have an abortion rather than to bear a man who killed 14?

on the other hand, what if martin luther king jrs mother decided to have an abortion?

things happen for a reason. whine and bitch and complain all you want people are gonna do it anyway. seems as thuogh stingy is doing pretty well as i know plenty who have had abortions who are doing fine

my friend for one, sure she coulda kept the kid. so baiscally it wouldve been a corporal and a girl who doesnt eeven have her AA raising a child. how fair for the child yeh? instead shes gonna continue onto college and get her BA and become a psychologist. THEN have a child. a much, much more stable life for that child.. at least in MY eyes

[Vodstok]

Originally posted by Egekrusher
That is YOUR choice and YOUR opinions. The fact that you would abandon your sister because of that speaks volumes about what you are really like. You are just as selfish as the people you claim to hate.

I didn't start the name calling, YOU did. And if you think that you'll finish it, you are DEAD wrong.

I dont think she said she abandonned her sister.

I wanted to let sleeping dogs lie, but i cant. People against abortion say life begins at conception, however... there is not yet a universally accepted definition for what constitutes life.

Something like a virus displays most of the attributes of life, including reproduction, but they lack others. So when is a fetus a life? at conception? the very moment the zygote forms? If so, is a woman's body commiting infanticide if the zygote gfails to stick to the uterin wall and is flushed out the next time she has a period? what about a miscarriage?

Going back then, especially with the view that you shoulod expect a kid every time you have sex, do you theb support the Catholic idea that birth control is ALSO murdering the fetus before it ieven has a chance? Where is the line? Then masturbation would be proactive murder every time a guy jerked off.

There is way too much grey area to make black and white judgements on something this important.

[Stingy Jack]

I think Hitler's mom was going to have an abortion, and decided not to. I could be wrong ... need to look that up.

[fluffho]

if thats true..

that pretty much contradicts her "[abortion] will and does ruin lives."

in this case how many lives was it... 5 million?? hmmmmmmmm

[bwind22]

I'm not sure at which point this thread went from a civil conversation/debate to a much more heated, much less fun, flame war, and I really don't care. I'm not gonna point any fingers at anyone, but I am going to be done with this thread.

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/jeffcruz/misc/threadinflames.jpg

[Stingy Jack]

I remember reading something about how Hitler's mom had several miscarriages throughout her life, and that the doctors warned her that her pregnancy with Adolf could kill her. She considered abortion, but decided against it because she wante d so desperately to have a child. But, I could be getting my facts confused ... it has been a long time since I read it.

[Stingy Jack]

Originally posted by bwind22
I'm not sure at which point this thread went from a civil conversation/debate to a much more heated, much less fun, flame war, and I really don't care. I'm not gonna point any fingers at anyone, but I am going to be done with this thread.

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/jeffcruz/misc/threadinflames.jpg

Well, I haven't flamed anyone, even though my wife and I were indirectly called stupid, lazy and immature.

[Gothic-chick]

Originally posted by Stingy Jack
Meh... As I have already said, my wife got pregnant once before we were ready to have a child. We were careful, used birth control, but it happened. We could not afford to have the baby, and we also could not afford her taking time off from work to carry the baby to term and go through recovery. We both agreed that abortion was the only option, under the circumstances. And we went through with it. She does not regret it, she is not miserable, our lives are not destroyed ... at least, not in the way they would have been had we decided to keep the baby. And this is when we both mature enough to make decisions on our own. You can call us stupid, lazy, or what have you. But, the fact remains that we were careful. We used birth control, and it fucking happened anyway. And don't you sit there and tell me that I should not have sex with my wife if I wasn't ready to have a baby. Do you plan to have a kid every time you have sex with your spouse? Remember, we were protected! So, what's good for some people is not for others. Just because your friend feels she made the wrong choice, and allows herself to dwell in that misery, does not mean that the service is not helpful for others.

I'm not going to sugar coat my feelings for you. You posted what you think on a public board to I'm going to tell you what I think.

I feel sorry for you and your wife. You killed your baby because you didn't have enough money??? I think that's the most pathetic thing I have ever heard in my life. Justify it all you want. It is what it is.

I too had an unplanned pregnancy. She is now 13 years old. The best thing that ever happened to me. At the time I was still living with my parents and the only way my husband and I could make it was to live in a shitty little apartment that reeked of Indian food all of the time. We ate bologna sandwiches and struggled along dealing with the consequences of our ACCIDENT (broken condom). Because we had no insurance,we paid doctor bills for 3 full years before they were finally paid off. It made us stronger than ever and made us strive for a better life. Nothing in life is easy. What the hell is it with people these days who are afraid of struggle? I guess you should thank God your parents didn't look at you like a burden and kill you before you had a chance!

As you may have noticed, This topic pisses me off more than anything in the world.


And yes everytime my husband and I have sex we take the chance of another baby. A baby we are not capable of killing .

[Gothic-chick]

Originally posted by Egekrusher
That is YOUR choice and YOUR opinions. The fact that you would abandon your sister because of that speaks volumes about what you are really like. You are just as selfish as the people you claim to hate.

I didn't start the name calling, YOU did. And if you think that you'll finish it, you are DEAD wrong.

who said I would abandon my sister??? I never said that...... And I never said I hated anyone. Learn to read !


They are my opinions , opinions YOU asked for

[bloodrayne]

So...What about the fathers?...The baby is just as much theirs as it is the mother's...What if they feel that they aren't ready to be fathers, or they want to finish college without the irritation of raising their baby, or whatever other reason people come up with...Shouldn't the father have just as much right to demand that the baby be killed?...Or what if the father WANTS the baby?...Can't he demand that it not be killed?...I mean it IS his child...But, I guess as long as people see the baby as a part of the woman's body, the father can have no say about what happens to HIS child...Kind of a double standard wouldn't you say?

[Egekrusher]

Originally posted by Gothic-chick
who said I would abandon my sister??? I never said that...... And I never said I hated anyone. Learn to read !


They are my opinions , opinions YOU asked for

You spoke of her as if she was less than human. If that's not abandonment, at least at heart, then I don't know what is.

I'm done with this crap. This thread should be nuked.

MODS: If you read this, please nuke this thread. Thanks.

[fluffho]

dont nuke it that would be gay

just dont argue any more. who cares.

[ShankS]

thats why I've been avoiding this thread, the topic is far to controversial atm, since it's a much talked about debate in the media, especially in the Uk.

[Stingy Jack]

Well, at the time that it happened she and I had just gotten married. I was still in school and working the night shift at a gas station and she was scooping ice cream at Bask Robbins. We both had minimum wage jobs, and could barely make the rent on our two bedroom trailer.
Eating baloney sandwiches everyday would have been a luxury! As it was, I could only afford to buy discounted junk food at the convenience store, and only ate when I worked. My wife ate ramen noodles and cereal. We did not have the luxury of moving back in with our parents because my mother had just gone through a divorce and had to move into a place large enough to simply accomodate her. My mother-in-law was a widow on a fixed income and she, too, had a one-bedroom place. So yes, we chose abortion (you use the term "killed your baby" so emotionally, I love it. But, I like to keep discussions in the realm of reason) because having the baby would have meant that I would have to drop out of school, thus dooming us both to dead-end jobs that we couldn't live off of. Let alone properly raise a child with.

I suppose we could have gone on welfare, but we were not about to make tax payers help us pay for our child. Going on welfare would have made me and my wife both ceritfiable hypocrites, thus taking away the last shred of dignity I had.

As far as thanking God goes ... no. I thank my father for having a good enough job to be able to afford two kids.

[bwind22]

Originally posted by Stingy Jack
Well, I haven't flamed anyone, even though my wife and I were indirectly called stupid, lazy and immature.

I guess I would be quilty of calling you those things indeirectly, eh? Sorry. No offense intended. But with a topic like this, some generalizations are going to made by all parties involved.

I do not think you are stupid at all. (Quite the opposite, in fact.)
I don't know if you're lazy, but you probably aren't. (Considering you have a good job in the real world.)
I don't know if you were immature at that point in your life or not and I probably never will.

It's sad to me that you had to do that, but I'm glad for the two of you that you seem to be dealing with it okay.

Those were broad generalizations I made, and obviously, they aren't going to apply in every scenario. Accidents happen. BUT, if you wanted to be extra safe, the female could go on the pill, the male could wear a condom. That's about as safe as you can get without abstaining altogether (or having an operation).

[fluffho]

how about all those single mothers who can barely afford to keep their cihldren? if theyre not working all day, they are living off of welfare. how is that any better? kids majority of which drop out of school and end up in gangs...

i aint havin kids until im ready. until i can properly take care of them, have a good amount of money saved up just in case something were to happen. and to be able to feed him/her a lot more than just bologna or ramen, them shits are soo unhealthy.

call it murder whatever yuo want. thats what im gonna do as well as with others. not even that yuo can call it murder, there is no malice. id much rather have a 6 week old fetus destroyed than to watch a cihld grow up in some trash home with parents who can barely care for themselves.

[Egekrusher]

Stingy, Fluff, Bwind, I congratulate all of you on well thought out and articulate posts.

Stingy- Cases like that are why abortion should be legal (completely).

Bwind- I already forgot what you posted. :(

Fluff- Same here. If I were to get someone pregnant right now, I wouldn't be able to afford it. Plain and simple. I can barely afford to feed myself.

[Arioch]

Im all about the government staying OUT of my life....and others life.... pro personal choice! Fuck the goverment that tells us what to do with our own BODIES!!

[fluffho]

Originally posted by Egekrusher
Stingy, Fluff, Bwind, I congratulate all of you on well thought out and articulate posts.

OMG. I ACTUALLY MADE A GOOD POST!

:D maybe my grammar isnt all there but i think the content is understandable!

im not gonna call anyone stupid/lazy/whaatever for having/not having an abortion or their thoughts on it. i DO find it stupid though someone make a generalization on someone simply on this..

god im sexy

mort imporantly, whether a woman has or does NOT have an abortion, believ it or not.. either way it IS in the best intereest of the child (just in different ways, obviosuyl). again.. NO malice! (not to say there arent exceptions)

[Egekrusher]

Originally posted by fluffho
god im sexy

Indeed.

[fluffho]

Originally posted by Arioch
Im all about the government staying OUT of my life....and others life.... pro personal choice! Fuck the goverment that tells us what to do with our own BODIES!!

lol u and ur anti government

i think this issue deals more than just the government telling u what and what not u can do..

[Egekrusher]

The original reason that the government stepped in was a high public demand for it. The masses wanted this stopped, so the government intervened.

[fluffho]

oh yeh i forgot

the abortoin cost her $500.. holy bejeesus!! her bf paid for it though.

i mean having the kid woulda cost a lot more but HOT DAMN thats a lot at least i think! it was with planned parenthood

[Arioch]

LOL! im no anarchist....

The real issue at hand is whether it should be legal or not....and the only reason it SHOULD be illegal is coming from the people that would NEVER have one in the first place....they just want to deny all others the ability to choose the option THEY would never choose themselves...

I think thats bullshit....everyone should always have the ability to choose for themselves what is right for them. Just my $0.02.

[fluffho]

but thats the problem

some people think its right for them to kill others... so shuold they be allowed to? where is the line drawn

again.. perception!

[Arioch]

As long as it doesnt harm anyone else, people should be allowed to choose what they want for their own bodies...

The real issue you guys are bringing to the table is whether or not aborting a fetus is is harming someone elses rights...

Republicans - its a living being with a sould its evil...

Democrats - its too early its not alive yet, blah blah...

Honestly this part of the argument kinda bores me, as their is no proof, and concrete facts to support if its alive or isnt, the only thing that interests me is the issue of governement intervention...

[fluffho]

yeh.. there is the whole bio on it like we know what is formed each week blah blah

but thats where it stops. soem people think its the heart, some the brain, some RIGHT when the sperm and egg join.. and u cant prove that

it bores me as well. ... a lot of science bores me.

i tihnk thats why i stand where i stand (gernally) in the middle

yes in the cases of rape/incest, or within the 1st trimester. of course maybe if i read up on more of the biology, i may even leak into the 2nd. but of course, IM BORED BY IT ALL!

in the cases of 3rd, i think if they are irresponsible enough (or naiive) to let it get to that point.. just go for adoption

[Gothic-chick]

Originally posted by Egekrusher
I know I said I regretted making this thread/flame war. But I will back my opinions, and the opinions of the people I consider to be my friends, to the bitter end.

Gothic-chick, you just made yourself an enemy. Congratulations. I'm the last person you want to battle.



Shouldn't you be wallowing in self pity somewhere?? Are you threatening me? Why are you so afraid of what I have had to say? I looked at your profile and I see you are only 21 which explains everything. This is the last time I'll ever speak directly to you. Next time you start a thread you should think about the magnitude of the subject to see if your able to handle it you big cry baby! Get outa the closet!

[yourlastmistake]

Originally posted by Gothic-chick
Shouldn't you be wallowing in self pity somewhere?? Are you threatening me? Why are you so afraid of what I have had to say? I looked at your profile and I see you are only 21 which explains everything. This is the last time I'll ever speak directly to you. Next time you start a thread you should think about the magnitude of the subject to see if your able to handle it you big cry baby! Get outa the closet!


got your ass handed to you didn't you egekrusher.you spout typical liberal bullshit. tell me, if she would have agreed with every
thing you said she would have been your buddy. is that right ?
didnt you want peoples detailed opinion on abortion or is that only opinions that matched yours ? yes i agree with gothic-chick i
think your gay and just aren't ready to admit it. in your case i think abortion should be legal. go ahead mods selectively pick and
choose who you side with and kick off[kpro not included] this beatnik is always attacking people for their opinions on a public
message board. you have a enemy also egekrusher.......me!

[Arioch]

go ahead mods selectively pick and
choose who you side with and kick off[kpro not included]

You have no idea what your talking about... no mod does any of that here. How long have you been here again? I was gonna delete some of this bullshit flame war but no i have to keep most of these remarks to make an example. An example of HOW we arent deleting shit we dissagree with purely on that basis...

Even when the flame war posts in question attack us directly, and accuse us of doing what we prove we are not.

If your gonna attack a moderator by saying they arent doing their job....atleast single it down to ONE so your not generalizing on all of them...

Just try to get off the issue of how much you dislike the threads originator and back on to the issue at hand...dont make us(me) lock this over your problem with egekrusher....or mods..

[Gothic-chick]

Originally posted by Stingy Jack
Well, at the time that it happened she and I had just gotten married. I was still in school and working the night shift at a gas station and she was scooping ice cream at Bask Robbins. We both had minimum wage jobs, and could barely make the rent on our two bedroom trailer.
Eating baloney sandwiches everyday would have been a luxury! As it was, I could only afford to buy discounted junk food at the convenience store, and only ate when I worked. My wife ate ramen noodles and cereal. We did not have the luxury of moving back in with our parents because my mother had just gone through a divorce and had to move into a place large enough to simply accomodate her. My mother-in-law was a widow on a fixed income and she, too, had a one-bedroom place. So yes, we chose abortion (you use the term "killed your baby" so emotionally, I love it. But, I like to keep discussions in the realm of reason) because having the baby would have meant that I would have to drop out of school, thus dooming us both to dead-end jobs that we couldn't live off of. Let alone properly raise a child with.

I suppose we could have gone on welfare, but we were not about to make tax payers help us pay for our child. Going on welfare would have made me and my wife both ceritfiable hypocrites, thus taking away the last shred of dignity I had.

As far as thanking God goes ... no. I thank my father for having a good enough job to be able to afford two kids.


As I said earlier, Blah Blah Blah!!! Typical list of excuses for not taking responsibility and trying to justify killing an innocent baby for reasons none other than selfishness..

[yourlastmistake]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Arioch
[B] I was gonna delete some of this bullshit flame war but no i have to keep most of these remarks to make an example. An example of HOW we arent deleting shit we dissagree with purely on that basis...



thats why i made the remark i did.so you wouldnt delete it.
i apologize if you think i was attacking you.

[Arioch]

I would never delete a post i didnt agree with, purely on that basis... i mean both your and Gothic girl's posts are questionable, they both have good expressions of your viewpoints in them, which is the point of the thread.

The problem lies here in, where you guys just start blasting Ege., i know its a heated subject, but the thread isnt about him, its about abortion...

Just dont think that all the moderators on here are biased or something like that, because while some of them may be....i took offense to that...i would never ban or remove posts for bullshit reasons like that....most on here know that...

[bloodrayne]

Yourlastmistake,
Zwoti and I have only banned one person...Just the same person, over and over again...As for deleting threads and/or posts...I have only deleted Bane's under his various SNs, and Zwoti hasn't removed ANY that I am aware of...So, I cannot imagine who you may be referring to, if not kPro, Arioch, Zwoti or myself.......OH...nevermind

[Gothic-chick]

Originally posted by MD2
I told myself not to get involved, but let me ask you a question Gotic chick, If you were raped by oh I don't know an elephant, maybe. And you became pregnant. Would you go full steam ahead with a full term pregnancy?

And I mean no disrespect by asking you this.

that question is so ridiculous I can't even think of how to respond. Other than asking how old you are?

[Gothic-chick]

Originally posted by Arioch
I would never delete a post i didnt agree with, purely on that basis... i mean both your and Gothic girl's posts are questionable, they both have good expressions of your viewpoints in them, which is the point of the thread.

The problem lies here in, where you guys just start blasting Ege., i know its a heated subject, but the thread isnt about him, its about abortion...

Just dont think that all the moderators on here are biased or something like that, because while some of them may be....i took offense to that...i would never ban or remove posts for bullshit reasons like that....most on here know that...


I'm kinda new here in fact my first post I was attacked and called a bitch by one of the moderators. I didn't mean to do anything wrong here. I have strong opinions about abortion and if I remember correctly Egekrushers exact words in the first post were ....

"What is your take on abortion? Besides the poll, I'd like to know your detailed feelings on abortion."

I wasn't aware that that meant everyone except who he disagrees with. Yeah I said his comment to me was stupid because it was.

He then told me I have made an enemy and he's the last person I want as an enemy. I think that other dude(YLM )just tried to defend me... Whatever! This is not worth it..

I'll try and be done with this subject I think I have said everything I want to anyway....

[Arioch]

I'm kinda new here in fact my first post I was attacked and called a bitch by one of the moderators. I didn't mean to do anything wrong here. I have strong opinions about abortion and if I remember correctly Egekrushers exact words in the first post were ....


Which moderator?

Your opinions are greatly appreciated, lets just try to keep the thread headed in that direction and not in the direction of inflamatory/degrading remarks...on BOTH sides...

We can have a civil debate here i think....Alot of intellectuals here...well...in this thread atleast:p

[Gothic-chick]

Originally posted by MD2
I am 33 but before you go off on me why dont you hear someone else out before making a judgement call. Ok?


WTF?? OK! think about the stupidity of your question.....

[Gothic-chick]

Originally posted by Arioch
Which moderator?

Your opinions are greatly appreciated, lets just try to keep the thread headed in that direction and not in the direction of inflamatory/degrading remarks...on BOTH sides...

We can have a civil debate here i think....Alot of intellectuals here...well...in this thread atleast:p

Kpropain

[fluffho]

read through the beginning and it seemed as though everyone was pretty civil in their posts

it was a certain post though which was less 'this is my opinion' and more on the offensive 'those who do not share it are stupid and should be ashamed'

not naming who but....... i think thats why it lead to this.

there are several people on here (bwind for example) who disagreed with ege, myself and others. just that majority of people kept it on a neutral basis rather than personal.

[Arioch]

there are several people on here (bwind for example) who disagreed with ege, myself and others. just that majority of people kept it on a neutral basis rather than personal

Agreed. Which is why the thread should stay open....things like this CAN be discussed...and should be i think...

[kpropain]

Originally posted by Gothic-chick
Kpropain

Gothic-chick I agree I did say that, but in all fairness I wasn't a mod then and I also apologized to you in that thread and you also responded to it... Once again I will even apologize here for it and hope you will accept the apology and won't hold a grudge...

Here is the thread you are refering to.
http://www.horror.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6718

Anyway have fun discussing this heated abortion topic, I myself choose to stay out of it...

[Arioch]

Anyway have fun discussing this heated abortion topic, I myself choose to stay out of it...

LOL...are you scared? dont be scared mr.propain:p

[fluffho]

Originally posted by kpropain
Anyway have fun discussing this heated abortion topic, I myself choose to stay out of it...

some people may say ur acting like a girly man...... ;)

[Gothic-chick]

Originally posted by kpropain
Gothic-chick I agree I did say that, but in all fairness I wasn't a mod then and I also apologized to you in that thread and you also responded to it... Once again I will even apologize here for it and hope you will accept the apology and won't hold a grudge...

Here is the thread you are refering to.
http://www.horror.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6718

Anyway have fun discussing this heated abortion topic, I myself choose to stay out of it...


No grudge, I'm going to have to stay out of this thread now too because it's making me mad.

I guess I should have known better, My views on abortion, and politics are so strong. I know I'm never going to change anyones mind about abortion. I strongly feel it's being used as birth control and I think it's very sad.

Oh well, I'll just muddle along here and raise my kids to value life, and deal with the consequences of their choices, instead of taking the easy way out..

I'm off to find another thread about gory shit to participate in.... I love gory shit!

[fluffho]

what the hell...

if kpro apologized to you IN that thread for caling u a bitch (which is pretty much what he does to EVERY noob), and you replied right back then why the hell did you bother to bring it up now?

[kpropain]

There are just way to many different circumstances that are brought in to factor on this subject....

And if I must say I'm kinda in the middle, only time I agree with it is in the case of rape or incest...

[wufong]

Originally posted by Egekrusher
You've never had a child under those circumstances, so you couldn't POSSIBLY know.

Also, I wasn't saying that you should force your child to abort. I'm saying that you should let her decide, and support whatever decision she makes.
And you have?..............hmmmmmmm? :)

[Gothic-chick]

Originally posted by fluffho
what the hell...

if kpro apologized to you IN that thread for caling u a bitch (which is pretty much what he does to EVERY noob), and you replied right back then why the hell did you bother to bring it up now?


Not sure what the hell your point is.... You obviously mistook what you read... Seems to be alot of that in this thread.

I didn't reply to him . In fact I said he was an ass. At the time I had no intentions of ever speaking to the dude.

I said no grudge because I have had time to get over it.

whatever! Why am I telling YOU!

[fluffho]

Originally posted by Gothic-chick
Not sure what the hell your point is.... You obviously mistook what you read... Seems to be alot of that in this thread.

I didn't reply to him . In fact I said he was an ass. At the time I had no intentions of ever speaking to the dude.

I said no grudge because I have had time to get over it.

whatever! Why am I telling YOU!

you are a very angry person

yuo were in your first post in this thread and yuo are at the end of it.

try rereading the post from the beginning and see how civil everyone was, then look at your post calling people against you stupid and how they should be ashamed of themselves....

[yourlastmistake]

Originally posted by bloodrayne
Yourlastmistake,
Zwoti and I have only banned one person...Just the same person, over and over again...As for deleting threads and/or posts...I have only deleted Bane's under his various SNs, and Zwoti hasn't removed ANY that I am aware of...So, I cannot imagine who you may be referring to, if not kPro, Arioch, Zwoti or myself.......OH...nevermind




As I said before ............ I apologize. I guess I was out of line by
bringing the mods in on this. Arioch's right I have not been here long enough to pass judgement on the mods. So once again I apologize to Bloodrayne,Arioch,and Zwoti.

I was a little torqued because that person really chaps my ass.



nuff said

[Stingy Jack]

Well, the only thing that Gothic Chick said in response to my situation was "Blah, blah, blah! The same old list of excuses by someone who refuses to take responsibility and kills his baby for no other reason than selfishness" or something like that. I would quote it directly, but it is too far back in the thread for me to locate.

Gothic Chick, you said that I should "Thank God" at one point. I am going to make an assumption here that may be completely off ... but I'm going to make it anyway. I take it you believe in God (most people who are pro-choice do). If this is so, then what is the problem with sending the unborn baby off to heaven? He (or she) would never have known about the horrors of the real world, nor ever get the opportunity to sin and ruin his chances at eternal life with God. As it is, the fetus got a free ticket to paradise! So ... why are you so adamant about it's death? (That is, if you believe in God.)

I could argue here that your steadfast pro-choice position is not entirely selfless. You are the type of person who would not be able to live with herself if she knew she played any role in an abortion. Which is why you would disown your daughter if she chose to have an abortion (I think that is what you said ... maybe it was less committed than that. Maybe it was more like: "I would refuse to allow it.") Even so, is this not a selfish standpoint? You would rather force your own daughter to do something she does not want to do because you are against the idea, and would not be able to bear it. And, you insist on pushing this same self-centered viewpoint on everyone around you. You can't stand it that other people get abortions, and you want to stop it ... so you can feel good. That's pretty selfish.

Also, I do not agree with the viewpoint that every life is sacred and deserves to be saved. There are millions of people allive today who do nothing but drag the rest of us down. Okay, so a baby is innocent. But, you have to look past your emotions. Think of the consequences that would arise if we made abortion illegal, and assumed that NO women aborted their unwanted pregnancies. Think about that. In my case, I would have to have either gone on welfare, or went homeless. Both of which tax society. And that is just one case! I imagine that my situation occurs in countless families, everyday. You would rather see all of these families go homeless, or on welfare (which you and I have to pay for, mind you), than be allowed to live a fuller, happier life by being allowed the option to choose to abort an accidental pregnancy? Think of how fast our society would plummet down the toilet! Sure, we're saving all the babies ... but now, they're growing up poor, uneducated, and running rampant in the streets! While the rest of us have to pick up second and third jobs just to afford to live since much of our money will be going to support these kids. Then, once we're all working all of these extra jobs, family-time is gone. Our kids end up having to raise themselves ... and 9 times out of then, those kids become criminals as well.

But ... save the cute, innocent babies. Forget all that other stuff. It is not imoprtant.

[fluffho]

*tears in my eyes*

beautiful stingy. simply beautiful!!

[Stingy Jack]

Originally posted by fluffho
*tears in my eyes*

beautiful stingy. simply beautiful!!

Wanna do it? ;)

[jay o2 waster]

I really need to start paying attention to what is going on

[fluffho]

why not!!

just to let u know though... if something happens... im aborting it! not gonna give it a horrible life when in just 5-6 years i could give it a much much more stable one ;)

[orangestar]

The bottom line is, it is VERY unlikely that abortion will ever become illegal. It would be political suicide for anyone to make that a law.

[Stingy Jack]

Originally posted by fluffho
why not!!

just to let u know though... if something happens... im aborting it! not gonna give it a horrible life when in just 5-6 years i could give it a much much more stable one ;)

I was going to say something here, but it would be totally tasteless and piss many people off. So I will be good. ;)

[Stingy Jack]

Originally posted by orangestar
The bottom line is, it is VERY unlikely that abortion will ever become illegal. It would be political suicide for anyone to make that a law.

And personal suicide for many accidental would-be mothers.

[fluffho]

Originally posted by Stingy Jack
I was going to say something here, but it would be totally tasteless and piss many people off. So I will be good. ;)

dont be a girly man.............

[Stingy Jack]

Originally posted by fluffho
dont be a girly man.............

I am a girly man. I can't help it.


No, really. It was too crude, even for me. I like to be somewhat dignified.






























<brrrrippppppphsphthhtphspts>

Oops. I sharted. :)

[hellfire1]

Originally posted by jay o2 waster
I really need to start paying attention to what is going on

was thinking the same thing

[fluffho]

jay, hell... basically, it was smelling a bit SFF for a while. lol i could explain why but im lazy but yeh it kinda smelt like that

stingy: FINE! BE girly! but i am curious.. maybe PM to me? i dont tell anyone!! im good at keeping online secrets.

keyword: online ;)

[bloodrayne]

Originally posted by yourlastmistake
As I said before ............ I apologize. I guess I was out of line by
bringing the mods in on this. Arioch's right I have not been here long enough to pass judgement on the mods. So once again I apologize to Bloodrayne,Arioch,and Zwoti.
Thank you...That was very considerate...I accept...and I TOLD Arioch you were one of the good ones...I love being right ;) :)

[Arioch]

Well, the only thing that Gothic Chick said in response to my situation was "Blah, blah, blah! The same old list of excuses by someone who refuses to take responsibility and kills his baby for no other reason than selfishness" or something like that. I would quote it directly, but it is too far back in the thread for me to locate.

Gothic Chick, you said that I should "Thank God" at one point. I am going to make an assumption here that may be completely off ... but I'm going to make it anyway. I take it you believe in God (most people who are pro-choice do). If this is so, then what is the problem with sending the unborn baby off to heaven? He (or she) would never have known about the horrors of the real world, nor ever get the opportunity to sin and ruin his chances at eternal life with God. As it is, the fetus got a free ticket to paradise! So ... why are you so adamant about it's death? (That is, if you believe in God.)

I could argue here that your steadfast pro-choice position is not entirely selfless. You are the type of person who would not be able to live with herself if she knew she played any role in an abortion. Which is why you would disown your daughter if she chose to have an abortion (I think that is what you said ... maybe it was less committed than that. Maybe it was more like: "I would refuse to allow it.") Even so, is this not a selfish standpoint? You would rather force your own daughter to do something she does not want to do because you are against the idea, and would not be able to bear it. And, you insist on pushing this same self-centered viewpoint on everyone around you. You can't stand it that other people get abortions, and you want to stop it ... so you can feel good. That's pretty selfish.

Also, I do not agree with the viewpoint that every life is sacred and deserves to be saved. There are millions of people allive today who do nothing but drag the rest of us down. Okay, so a baby is innocent. But, you have to look past your emotions. Think of the consequences that would arise if we made abortion illegal, and assumed that NO women aborted their unwanted pregnancies. Think about that. In my case, I would have to have either gone on welfare, or went homeless. Both of which tax society. And that is just one case! I imagine that my situation occurs in countless families, everyday. You would rather see all of these families go homeless, or on welfare (which you and I have to pay for, mind you), than be allowed to live a fuller, happier life by being allowed the option to choose to abort an accidental pregnancy? Think of how fast our society would plummet down the toilet! Sure, we're saving all the babies ... but now, they're growing up poor, uneducated, and running rampant in the streets! While the rest of us have to pick up second and third jobs just to afford to live since much of our money will be going to support these kids. Then, once we're all working all of these extra jobs, family-time is gone. Our kids end up having to raise themselves ... and 9 times out of then, those kids become criminals as well.

But ... save the cute, innocent babies. Forget all that other stuff. It is not imoprtant.

Goddamn well thought out! Good form, Stingy. Damn that was well put...

[Egekrusher]

Originally posted by Gothic-chick
Shouldn't you be wallowing in self pity somewhere?? Are you threatening me? Why are you so afraid of what I have had to say? I looked at your profile and I see you are only 21 which explains everything. This is the last time I'll ever speak directly to you. Next time you start a thread you should think about the magnitude of the subject to see if your able to handle it you big cry baby! Get outa the closet!

So, me being young explains everything? Oh really? Please, enlighten me.

"Get outa the closet!"? What closet?

The more you speak, the less sense you make.

"This is the last time I'll ever speak directly to you." Nice cop out. Instead of arguing, you just say "I'm right, you're wrong, I'm better than you, therefore, I'm not going to bother to respond to you". That's very, very cheap.

I've seen very, very few logical arguments in this thread from you and A LOT of personal attacks.

[Stingy Jack]

Originally posted by Arioch
Goddamn well thought out! Good form, Stingy. Damn that was well put...

I love Arioch's enthusiasm for my responses. It makes my day.

[HappyCamper]

For those who believe that abortion is an acceptable option for those women who have been unfortunate victims of rape or incest, think about this:

Less than 1% of women who are raped, actually become pregnant.

I used to agree, that abortion was an acceptable option for those who have been raped, until I learned this fact. Now i'm totally against abortion in ALL cases.

[orangestar]

Originally posted by HappyCamper
For those who believe that abortion is an acceptable option for those women who have been unfortunate victims of rape or incest, think about this:

Less than 1% of women who are raped, actually become pregnant.

I used to agree, that abortion was an acceptable option for those who have been raped, until I learned this fact. Now i'm totally against abortion in ALL cases.


I dont understand why that fact changes your opinion....:confused:

[Egekrusher]

Originally posted by HappyCamper
For those who believe that abortion is an acceptable option for those women who have been unfortunate victims of rape or incest, think about this:

Less than 1% of women who are raped, actually become pregnant.

I used to agree, that abortion was an acceptable option for those who have been raped, until I learned this fact. Now i'm totally against abortion in ALL cases.

So you would still force that 1% of women to bear the child?

[Stingy Jack]

Originally posted by orangestar
I dont understand why that fact changes your opinion....:confused:

I agree. Why would it be different if more women got pregnant by rape? What does the number of women have to do with it? It still happens to some women.

[HappyCamper]

I wouldn't force anyone to bear a child. I'm just saying that I think adoption would be a better option for a woman who's been raped and does not want the child. Especially since a woman who has been raped is very unlikely to become pregnant (Less than 1% of woman who have been raped do)

Like I said in one of my earlier post. I'm against abortion in ALL cases. However I don't believe that gives me the right to make others have the same belief.

[HappyCamper]

Originally posted by Stingy Jack
I agree. Why would it be different if more women got pregnant by rape? What does the number of women have to do with it? It still happens to some women.


I know that some women get raped. I also know that some of these women become pregnant. What I'm saying is that less than 1% of the raped women actually become pregnant. So if say 50 woman got raped, that means only about 1 of them would actually become pregnant.

What really shapes my view is the fact that one of my best friends happened to be a 'result' of a rape. What if his mom had decided to abort him?

that's my 2 c. i'm done with this topic. by the way I'm sorry if I offended anyone and I respect all of your opinions, even if I happen to disagree with them. 'We all just need to agree to disagree'

laterz

[Egekrusher]

Originally posted by HappyCamper
I wouldn't force anyone to bear a child. I'm just saying that I think adoption would be a better option for a woman who's been raped and does not want the child. Especially since a woman who has been raped is very unlikely to become pregnant (Less than 1% of woman who have been raped do)

Like I said in one of my earlier post. I'm against abortion in ALL cases. However I don't believe that gives me the right to make others have the same belief.

Thank you. There are some people in this thread who would force feed other people their ideas and ideals.

I didn't mean to sound like I was personally attacking you, I'm sorry if it came out like that. I just get very defensive in situations where someone would rather take away freedoms than let people make their own choices.

[Egekrusher]

Originally posted by HappyCamper
I know that some women get raped. I also know that some of these women become pregnant. What I'm saying is that less than 1% of the raped women actually become pregnant. So if say 50 woman got raped, that means only about 1 of them would actually become pregnant.

What really shapes my view is the fact that one of my best friends happened to be a 'result' of a rape. What if his mom had decided to abort him?

that's my 2 c. i'm done with this topic. by the way I'm sorry if I offended anyone and I respect all of your opinions, even if I happen to disagree with them. 'We all just need to agree to disagree'

laterz

You're cool in my book, don't worry about it.

[fluffho]

what are the points of what ifs?

just as u can say 'what if my best friends mom had aborted him instead' u can say 'what if jeffrey dahmers mom had aborted him'

not attacking u but just saying all htis what if is pointless.

[bloodrayne]

Originally posted by Stingy Jack
I love Arioch's enthusiasm for my responses. It makes my day. LOL...He IS rather hyper :D
Originally posted by Gothic-chick
No grudge, I'm going to have to stay out of this thread now too because it's making me mad. There isn't any point in allowing yourself to get all pissed off...This is an internet forum...We aren't going to change the world here...Or most likely, not even each other's opinions...We should be able to state our opinions, even give our reasons for those opinions, and not fight with or insult those who do not share those same opinions...It's a discussion, not a battle...Keep it in perspective:) (and Arioch...Before you call me a hypocrite, I can get pissed off at YOU, as you do at me, that's different than arguing on the internet, even though I can't change YOUR mind either, just as you can't change mine:))
Originally posted by HappyCamper
For those who believe that abortion is an acceptable option for those women who have been unfortunate victims of rape or incest, think about this:

Less than 1% of women who are raped, actually become pregnant.

I used to agree, that abortion was an acceptable option for those who have been raped, until I learned this fact. Now i'm totally against abortion in ALL cases. @ Orangestar...I believe his point was that, as many people have exhibited here, abortion is more acceptible in cases of rape or incest...However...Hundreds of rape/incest abortions are being used to justify MILLIONS of abortions overall...That would be my analysis of his post

[rae_pierre]

I have never been in that situation, so I guess I can't really tell someone what to do.
But my view is if you are ready and responsible enough to spread your legs, then be ready to push out that baby.

If you were raped/ taken advantage of by like, your father or something, then that's another valid reason.

But I don't want to get yelled at, so I will stop there.

[Egekrusher]

Hmm. I live in Eaton Rapids, rae pierre. Closest I've seen yet on here.

[Arioch]

However I don't believe that gives me the right to make others have the same belief.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: OMG!! I DIDN'T THINK CONSERVATIVES COULD THINK THAT WAY! Bravo to you HC, if all conservatives we're as non-oppresive in their OWN beliefs i wouldn't have ANY problem with them at all. Goddamn that made my day....

*wonders off talking to self*

Goddamn a conservative that lets other people believe differently....ill tell ya......this world is quite a place.....

[Stingy Jack]

LoL at Arioch

[bwind22]

Originally posted by Arioch
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: OMG!! I DIDN'T THINK CONSERVATIVES COULD THINK THAT WAY! Bravo to you HC, if all conservatives we're as non-oppresive in their OWN beliefs i wouldn't have ANY problem with them at all. Goddamn that made my day....

*wonders off talking to self*

Goddamn a conservative that lets other people believe differently....ill tell ya......this world is quite a place.....

Make that 2. I tend to be a bit on the conservative side, but I really make a conscious effort to look at every issue from all sides. One thing I understand, when debating, most of the time, you will not change that person's mind. I keep that in mind and try to keep my debates as non-offensive as possible.

:D

[sugar shane]

I think that abortion should be completely legal, but only after the child has been born and hits their teenage years.

[Arioch]

Make that 2. I tend to be a bit on the conservative side, but I really make a conscious effort to look at every issue from all sides. One thing I understand, when debating, most of the time, you will not change that person's mind. I keep that in mind and try to keep my debates as non-offensive as possible.

For real, i can appreciate that. Most of the Conservatives ive talked (fucking screamed my head off at) to tend to look at the issues, and approach the debate, with the idea of recruiting others to their ideas.

Its kinda wierd....like people who call you when your 18 asking you to join the army....its cool that it can be just a discussion with you guys, and that you dont try to change peoples minds about it, because in a debate, its really impossible isn't it?

[bwind22]

Originally posted by Arioch
For real, i can appreciate that. Most of the Conservatives ive talked (fucking screamed my head off at) to tend to look at the issues, and approach the debate, with the idea of recruiting others to their ideas.

Its kinda wierd....like people who call you when your 18 asking you to join the army....its cool that it can be just a discussion with you guys, and that you dont try to change peoples minds about it, because in a debate, its really impossible isn't it?


Yeah, it's a lost cause. Especially in debates about topics of this nature. (I might be able to persuade someone into agreeing that Skittles are better than M&Ms or something, but getting them to believe in God or change their view on abortion is another story. You know what I'm sayin? Lol.)

Anyways, I know the stubborn conservatives you are talking about because both my mom and dad fall into the catergory. I debate/argue them almost constantly about this whole ordeal in Iraq and the Middle East. (They fully support everything Bush does just because he is a republican president in much the same they had a major problem with everything Clinton did.) Their stubborness blinds them to the obvious fact that we went into Iraw under false pretenses. They look at it as 'Saddam was a bad guy. It's better for the world for him to be gone.' Which I agree with, BUT I also look at it as 'We were lied to. Our reason for being there was false, so what's the real reason we went in?' The answer is disturbing. No one is going to say Saddam wasn't a bad guy, but he wasn't the worst. Iran and North Korea are both countries that were bigger threats to our national security than Iraq at the time we went in.

That's all, I'm beginning to ramble so I'm gonna cut myself off right there.

[Arioch]

Anyways, I know the stubborn conservatives you are talking about because both my mom and dad fall into the catergory. I debate/argue them almost constantly about this whole ordeal in Iraq and the Middle East. (They fully support everything Bush does just because he is a republican president in much the same they had a major problem with everything Clinton did.) Their stubborness blinds them to the obvious fact that we went into Iraw under false pretenses. They look at it as 'Saddam was a bad guy. It's better for the world for him to be gone.' Which I agree with, BUT I also look at it as 'We were lied to. Our reason for being there was false, so what's the real reason we went in?' The answer is disturbing. No one is going to say Saddam wasn't a bad guy, but he wasn't the worst. Iran and North Korea are both countries that were bigger threats to our national security than Iraq at the time we went in.

EXACTLY!!!!!God i know SO many people this way...Democrats too!

[yourlastmistake]

Originally posted by bloodrayne
Thank you...That was very considerate...I accept...and I TOLD Arioch you were one of the good ones...I love being right ;) :)

Thanks. For you, I'll try and be more tolerant of others.

[bloodrayne]

Originally posted by yourlastmistake
Thanks. For you, I'll try and be more tolerant of others. That was really sweet...and we should ALL be "more tolerant of others"..So, thanks again :)

[bloodrayne]

Originally posted by Arioch
Most of the Conservatives ive talked (fucking screamed my head off at) to tend to look at the issues, and approach the debate, with the idea of recruiting others to their ideas.When you get to the point of "screaming your head off", no one is listening anymore...So, screaming tends to be a bit ridiculous and unproductive...Perhaps you should consider expressing your views in a more rational manner...Not that people are more likely to change their own opinions to suit you, BUT, they may be more willing to listen to yours:)

[Arioch]

When you get to the point of "screaming your head off", no one is listening anymore...So, screaming tends to be a bit ridiculous and unproductive...Perhaps you should consider expressing your views in a more rational manner...Not that people are more likely to change their own opinions to suit you, BUT, they may be more willing to listen to yours

It....was.....a....JOKE!!!!

[bloodrayne]

Originally posted by Arioch
It....was.....a....JOKE!!!! Oh...So then you haven't yelled at ME during a political discussion?...Hmm...It sure sounded like YOUR voice :confused: :p

[moonsorrow]

if you dont want a kind you dont want a kid...maby your pregnant and just can cope with a kid...maby your 16 got drunk, got layd and your now expecting... there is no such thing as a 16 year old who can take care of a kid alone, its the choice of the creators if you ask me.
and to be honest, if my girlfriend got pregnant and decided not to have an abortion i would cut them both out of my life, im not ready for a kid.

[Arioch]

if you dont want a kind you dont want a kid...maby your pregnant and just can cope with a kid...maby your 16 got drunk, got layd and your now expecting... there is no such thing as a 16 year old who can take care of a kid alone, its the choice of the creators if you ask me.

Here here...

[moonsorrow]

haha! didnt think id get much suport on that last sentence.

[Arioch]

Hey atleast you told it like it is....most people wouldn't even do that...

[moonsorrow]

whats the point in lyinh about anything? from the size of your pecker to your familys insanity, youl get busted sooner or later.
i guess my bottom line is pro choice as you americans call it...that last post i made made me sound pro death

[Arioch]

that last post i made made me sound pro death

LOL, as we conservatives would call it:p ...

[moonsorrow]

bah... but death is a natural part of life isnt it?
does it realy matter when we die? before or after birth...odds are you havent changed the world.