a hypothetical...

[fluffho]

a bit religious.... ill try and keep it simple

i got to learn a lot about jehovahs witnesses through a friend. one thing she said was they are against blood transfusions, something because blood is life and only god can give life or some junk

so i asked her, lets say her little sister were in a car accident and her blood is all spilled into some canyon, meaning u cant scoop it up and clean it like she kept telling me about.. they would let her die rather than takea transfusion?

she siad yes, because thats what GOd wouldve wanted.

so here are my questions, maybe there are some nurses or people with legal knowledge here

- im pretty sure that u can use the religoin excuse when it comes to military type stuff.. so how abou this? last time i checked, doctors just rush to save people and dont ask too many questions

-lets say the car crash happens and they give her the transfusion BEFORE they are able to reach the parents? what then?

-maybe they wear a special bracelet like diabetics do?

-legally, is this even ALLOWED? i dont doubt in my mind at all that they woudl refuse the transfusion, but at least to me, this is bordering on murder!!! imagine being the doctor or nurse right there and being told NOT to save the child!

-its a difference between someone who is of age and who is not, if they are not then the parents make the decisions. but if they are, then could they sit there and say "no i dont want a transfusion. i want to die'?

... JUst wondering!!!! some BS isnt it??

[orangestar]

Im so happy that I was not raise a Jahovas Witness, they dont get birthday parties!

I saw an episode about this on The Practice. Basically, if the parents dont want the child to have the transfusion, they dont do it. Which I think is a load of shit. Whoever cares more about following every rule of their religion than their own child is not fit to be a parent.

Dont rely on that info lol it was on TV, but I think thats pretty close to the truth.

[kpropain]

To bad jehovahs witnesses are like dogs, you can't chase em off with a stick....

[bloodrayne]

With this issue or any other...Whether we believe in God or not...We are ALL given free will...If God wanted people to die, rather than have a transfusion...Why would he ALLOW transfusions to be an option?...Have these people who say "God wants it this way" ever spoken to God?...Does the bible SPECIFICALLY say, "Allow your children to die if transfusion is the only option"?...The bible DOES say to "protect" your children, and so if transfusion is the only way to save them, I would say that letting them die, is NOT protecting them

There are so many ways to interpret the bible, why would someone choose to believe an interpretation that allows children to die for no reason?...That actually sounds evil to me...You know, the bible ALSO says that Satan knows the bible just as well as anyone else...Perhaps those who believe are influenced by more than one entity...Case in point: Reverend Jim Jones...Was THAT "God's Will"?...Why would we be given ANY free will at all, if all of our decisions have supposedly already been made by doctrine?...I can't imagine ANY situation in which God would "order" a child's death

We have brains, people...We HAVE to use them...and we HAVE to protect our children

[Freddy Krueger.]

Originally posted by bloodrayne
With this issue or any other...Whether we believe in God or not...We are ALL given free will...If God wanted people to die, rather than have a transfusion...Why would he ALLOW transfusions to be an option?...Have these people who say "God wants it this way" ever spoken to God?...Does the bible SPECIFICALLY say, "Allow your children to die if transfusion is the only option"?...The bible DOES say to "protect" your children, and so if transfusion is the only way to save them, I would say that letting them die, is NOT protecting them

There are so many ways to interpret the bible, why would someone choose to believe an interpretation that allows children to die for no reason?...That actually sounds evil to me...You know, the bible ALSO says that Satan knows the bible just as well as anyone else...Perhaps those who believe are influenced by more than one entity...Case in point: Reverend Jim Jones...Was THAT "God's Will"?...Why would we be given ANY free will at all, if all of our decisions have supposedly already been made by doctrine?...I can't imagine ANY situation in which God would "order" a child's death

We have brains, people...We HAVE to use them...and we HAVE to protect our children First, we had a argument like this in a Thread. "What do you think god and saten looks like" I belive it was. And God would "order" a death of a child. Everyone and everything has a meaning for being. Nothing just happens, its all part of a plan. If the child dies, although to some it may be hard to accept but it was ment to be. A mother of farther would think otherwise. But nothing just happens. The child was ment to die. Second, why protect them when you can inslave them? You brought them into this world and you can take 'em out. The children should obey their creaters. For if it wasn't for them, they wouldn't even exist.

[fluffho]

mainly, i am curious as to the legality of this. im not sure how accurate the practice is as i just watched law and order ( my mom watches this) and even they do some stupid crap. wish i knew a judge or lawyer or someone!

anyway i guess the thing that bothers me is basically parents are calling on the death of the child. its not like the child has any say in this, not that they could really understand it anyway. i guess it would be different if it was a grown person that said that they didtn want the transfusion.

i guess thats what irks me most with religion. i want my child to be at an age where they can start to think on their own.. maybe 16 or maybe even 13, and let them choose a religion on their own over time, rather than be born and forced into one. BUT i guess thats how u keep religoins alive, is forcing people and scaring them into staying so whatever works i gues.

i nkow there are different versions of the bible, and in the version that she uses, and that she gave me, it specificaly said 'do not receive blood' or some crap like that. meaning wasnt like metaphor it just said that. also said things like 'men shal not have long hair for they are not women' and some other crap like that.

i never thought abou the idea though that yes the bible is a set of guidelines but how about when they contradict themselves? ive only read bits and pieces of it so im not so sure of the rules, just the ten commandments but even those im a bit murky with.

[bloodrayne]

Originally posted by fluffho
i nkow there are different versions of the bible, and in the version that she uses, and that she gave me, it specificaly said 'do not receive blood' or some crap like that. meaning wasnt like metaphor it just said that. However this is almost ALWAYS interpreted as "Do not CONSUME blood"...Do not drink it...Transfusion wasn't even a possibility at the time that the bible was written, and therefore, could not have been specifically mentioned...This just proves that any part of the bible, can be (and is) interpreted in many different ways...I just don't understand why anyone would CHOOSE to interpret it in a manner that would allow a child to die

As for the legal aspects...A parent has a right to refuse medical attention, based on religion...However, if the child dies, that parent can be tried and prosecuted for severe medical neglect resulting in death...BUT, if they have a good enough lawyer, and a sympathetic jury (if it goes to trial)...They could still go free...This may vary by state, but I believe it to be generally so

[bloodygurl02]

fluff u got me curious on this now. i think i am gonna do some reading on these guys just to see how fucked up they r... i knew they were fucked up b4 this but i just wanna see how much more fucked up they get

[fluffho]

i have all the bibles and papers in a box but they are under my bed and its a pain lifting up that mattress.

oddly i think it really DID say transfusion, but i could be wrong. it has been a while since ive read it.

i wouldnt say that transfusions did or did not exist then, i mean look at the pyramids.. who woulda thought? anyways it could just mean it was never written down.. who knows thuogh. but i will look it up when i get less lazy

anyways bg some about witnesses to give u an overview

-jury duty is ok so long as not murder/death penalty case
-cannot join work unions (this is the same sorta thing like not standing up for the national anthem as ur pledging urself to someone other than god)
-no bdays, mothers day, etc
-they will not celebrate christmas however do attend a special mass for christs' death..
-no tattoos (says this in the bible clearly) however u CAN have piercings however u CANT be weird about it.. however interpretation is different as theres no specific rule on piercings so for the girl i knew, she thinks 1 in each ear is ok but she knows witnesses who have 2 in each ear
-not allowed to even read about ot research other religions, let alone join in on mass with them (i attended 1 with her) cuz thats allowing the devil to tempt u
-mormons are the worst

theres more but they escape me right onw. its been so damn hot and i been in front of the fan all day adn now my eyes r dry

[bloodygurl02]

thanx fluff i found some info about them here its a site that tells about there beliefs and such

http://www.carm.org/witnesses.htm


i loe pissing these ppl off whne they come to the door its been a while last time they did i had my friend come to the door w/ me and told them we r satanists:D

[fluffho]

i just remebred one

theyre called witnesses cuz they witness for god, they talk about him trying to convert

on the back of their magazines, it has a little slip u can cut out and put ur name and addy and a date and time u want an appointment. mail it in

and they CANT deny anyone an appointment? i asked her what if im some druggie guy and i want u to come at 2am and she said she'd come anyway cuz she would take the risk to help me! dumbasses....

[kpropain]

Originally posted by fluffho

-no tattoos (says this in the bible clearly)

If I were a JW I would be doomed to hell for this...

O'well fuck em....that's another reason I don't believe in any of this garbage....

[wufong]

i think they should be able to do what they want. imposing someones non religious beliefs on a religious person, is just as bad as a religious person preaching to a atheist.

[NirvanaNole]

Originally posted by fluffho
mainly, i am curious as to the legality of this. im not sure how accurate the practice is as i just watched law and order ( my mom watches this) and even they do some stupid crap. wish i knew a judge or lawyer or someone!

Hmm, do I not count? :(

I don't know if different states have different laws, but I know the majority rule.

A competent adult may refuse any medical treatment. A parent has great latitude in how to raise their child, but the state will intervene and overrule the parent(s) in order to give a child potential life saving medical care. A child is viewed to not have the mental capacity to decide to refuse medical care until he/she reaches the age of capacity (usually 18, but depends on the state) or has become legally independent (married, emancipation, etc.).

[fluffho]

i forgot about u hun. thanks!

that answer sounds about right.. i can only imagine though. the child would probably be disowned and go to hell! but hey at least he/she would be alive and be able to go down whatever road they want to......... (maybe)

[NirvanaNole]

Originally posted by fluffho
i forgot about u hun. thanks!

that answer sounds about right.. i can only imagine though. the child would probably be disowned and go to hell! but hey at least he/she would be alive and be able to go down whatever road they want to......... (maybe)

Anything I can do to help, right boob. :D

[fluffho]

god

ill never live that down will i

nutsack

[NirvanaNole]

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Egekrusher]

It is legal for them to do so. It is an established precedent.

What I don't understand is where the line is between your child being your personal property and them being an individual with rights of their own. If you were to explain the situation to the child, and they understood what was happening, and asked for the transfusion, would the parents be able to stop you?

This kind of shit pisses me off SO BAD. What I really want to do is drain these motherfuckers blood out of their body to the point where they are just barely alive, and get rid of said blood. Once that happens, ask them if they still believe it's wrong to accept the gift of blood from someone else. That should show those fucking retards what it's like. You can't make those kind of decisions for your child. Personally, if I knew someone who made that decision, I would be forced to make the same one for them. They would die, a rather slow and painful death.

[Stingy Jack]

If these people want to die because of their faith, let them. Maybe they'll take their dark ages beliefs with them and we can finally move on.

[Egekrusher]

Originally posted by Stingy Jack
If these people want to die because of their faith, let them. Maybe they'll take their dark ages beliefs with them and we can finally move on.

The problem is that most of the time the people that are affected are the children of these crazy people. We just can't stand by and watch them suffer because of their parent's stupidity.

[Stingy Jack]

Well, all you gotta do as a doctor in that situation is turn to the parents and say: "Look. It is in God's plan that I save this child using the methods that God led us, as his children, to discover. So back the fuck up. By the way, God says that I can only do this for your kid and not for you."

[Egekrusher]

If only it were that simple.

[Stingy Jack]

Yeah, I know. Personally, I think it's a BAD idea to involve children in ANY form of religion. And that means taking your kids to church and telling them that stuff is true. I mean, that's just brainwashing. Children aren't mature enough to come to decisions about their metaphysical beliefs, and most people never even have the chance to make that choice for themselves. I know that plenty of people will tell you that they CHOSE Christianity, or whatever ... but there's something to be said about the fact that people tend to become whatever religion it was their parents were. If you take your average Christian and question him, he will probably tell you that his parents brought him to church when he was a kid, etc. etc. Then you ask him: "Do you think you would choose Christianity if you grew up in Indiana in the house of parents who followed Hinduism?" And he will tell you: "Yes, I would." But, that's bullshit. He would probably have followed Hinduism. I don't think religion should be presented as truth to anyone ... let alone children. But, if we're going to have religion, at least keep it tucked away until the kid is old enough to understand the deeper meanings of religion and choose one on his own. That's truly choosing Christ of your own free will (or ... whatever).

[Egekrusher]

Amen.

[fluffho]

thats the main prob i have religion. majority of them start from the day your born and it SUCKS cuz they basically teach yuo how lucky you wereto be born catholic/witness/etc and how everyone else who wasdnt born tthis way and dont convert will go to hell.

not that hell sounds so scary to me but to a small child suuure..

anyway that is exactly why i aint forcin my child into shit (not that i have a religoin to force them into anyway) once they are older MAYBE i will mention it to them and on their own they can figure out whatever the hell they want. of course ill be there to guide them i mean if my kid came hom e 'i want to be a witness' hmm id most likely beat the crap out of em

a lot of rules from back in those times though arose not only from myth but necessity. for example, good friday how you dont eat meat. well think about it, meat is expensive... spend a day not eating it. so perhaps this had something to do with the fact that transfusions can be dangerous? the bible also says not to eat meat that is too bloody and duh raw meat isnt exactly the safest thing for us.

OH YEH i remmebered what i was gonna say. they are completely against abortion. i even gave her the question 'ok lets say some dude comes into your house, holds you at gunpoint, ties yuo up and tortures and murders you family in front of u.. then rapes yuo saying he wants you to remmeber him forever. then leaves u. you get pregnant.. would you keep the baby?'

she said yes, she would.

actually, her grandmother was raped.. conceiving her mother. raped becuase..... she was a witness :rolleyes:

[Stingy Jack]

I've pretty much discovered that it's impossible to keep my child from being exposed to Christianity ... especially here in the South. I let her go eat lunch at a friend's house, and the next thing I know she comes home and starts praying over her meals. I told her not to do something unless she knows what it means. Once, I picked her up from day care and she was singing all sorts of shit about God because they made her listen to "Veggie Tales" tunes.

And of course if I said anything to any of these people about our family's religious beliefs, they would either try that much harder to press Christ on her, or not allow her to play with any of their kids at all.

Yes, folks ... Discrimination is alive and well!

[Vodstok]

Originally posted by Stingy Jack
Yes, folks ... Discrimination is alive and well!


In the South?!?! I refuse to believe that.....;)


I watched a thing on A&E last night about Polygamy. it was sickening. I wont get into it, but the more i hear about it, the worse it gets....

I acutally was asked to leave several classes in Vacation Bible school as a kid. The only reason i went was because my parents wanted me to be able to do something over the summer. After the first week, my parents pulled me, and the teachers were happy to see me go. I asked too many questions......

[Stingy Jack]

Surprisingly enough, I have no problems with a man taking more than one wife ... or a wife taking more than one husband, for that matter. Just as long as all parties involved are emotionally stable enough to accept and co-exist in such a situation. I honestly don't see where it's the government's business when it comes to how many women I have living in the house with me. In fact, polygamy is more easily justified through evolutionary terms than it is through religion. I mean, men are programmed with the desire to sleep with as many women as possible, in order to increase reproduction. Most of us who are civilized are able to curb that instinct, but it is still there ... lurking in the shadows.

I'll never take more than one wife, though. I can't stand the one I have. :D Just kidding. Really, though. I can imagine all the fights I would have to deal with ... and the nagging being increased two-fold. Yikes!! :eek:

[Vodstok]

The fact that they use religion to back them up is my #1 problem. Also, the thing i was watching last night showed how they almost always degenerate into abusive relationships. A sickening number of the husbands chose to "initiate" their daughters anywhere from age 18 down to 3 and 5......

I imagine it is great and not at all harmful for many people....

[Stingy Jack]

Well, I hope you took note of my stipulation above. "Just as long as all parties involved are emotionally stable enough to accept and co-exist in such a situation." I'm pretty sure most people aren't. Because (also an instinctual thing), we don't like to share. :D We are very territorial creatures who are highly aggressive and protective when it comes to keeping our stuff to ourselves (and I hate to label spouses as "stuff" here, but we're even more protective of them than we are our material things. I've gotten into fights with really close friends before because they thought I was getting too friendly with their current girlfriends.)

[Egekrusher]

Originally posted by Vodstok
The fact that they use religion to back them up is my #1 problem. Also, the thing i was watching last night showed how they almost always degenerate into abusive relationships. A sickening number of the husbands chose to "initiate" their daughters anywhere from age 18 down to 3 and 5......

I imagine it is great and not at all harmful for many people....

Wait.. I'm not sure I understand this. Please explain. I have no idea what you're talking about, but it sounds sick and disturbing.

[Stingy Jack]

Polygamy is the act of one man taking more than one wife. Vod was saying that in many of these relationships, the husband will betrothe his daughters to another man as early as three years of age. That's pretty funky.

[Egekrusher]

Oh, ok, I got that part of it. I was missreading one thing though.. I thought... incest... well, you get it.

[Stingy Jack]

I just threw up for no reason! :D

[NirvanaNole]

Originally posted by Egekrusher
It is legal for them to do so. It is an established precedent.

What I don't understand is where the line is between your child being your personal property and them being an individual with rights of their own. If you were to explain the situation to the child, and they understood what was happening, and asked for the transfusion, would the parents be able to stop you?

This kind of shit pisses me off SO BAD. What I really want to do is drain these motherfuckers blood out of their body to the point where they are just barely alive, and get rid of said blood. Once that happens, ask them if they still believe it's wrong to accept the gift of blood from someone else. That should show those fucking retards what it's like. You can't make those kind of decisions for your child. Personally, if I knew someone who made that decision, I would be forced to make the same one for them. They would die, a rather slow and painful death.

The government usually will not intervene unless the child's health is in serious danger. It is personal choice. How you raise your own children is a "fundamental right" under the Constitution, and any government action must meet strict scrutiny to be constitutional. This is the highest standard in the land and the government almost always losses in issues involving strict scrutiny. I'll leave it at that and not explain it in any more detail. It would take more time than I have to explain Constitutional law to those that have not studied it.

In the situation you mentioned, a child could go to the police and use the judicial system to overrule a parent's decision. A child can become emancipated to legally have the authority to make all his/her decisions, or the court may appoint a guardian if they deem the parents to be endangering the children.

I've probably confused people even more by this post, but oh well. :lol

[fluffho]

you have successfully confused me.. thank you :D

ill stick with my PC and knock and notice procedures THANK YO VERY MUCH

[wufong]

Originally posted by Stingy Jack
Yeah, I know. Personally, I think it's a BAD idea to involve children in ANY form of religion. And that means taking your kids to church and telling them that stuff is true. I mean, that's just brainwashing. Children aren't mature enough to come to decisions about their metaphysical beliefs, and most people never even have the chance to make that choice for themselves. I know that plenty of people will tell you that they CHOSE Christianity, or whatever ... but there's something to be said about the fact that people tend to become whatever religion it was their parents were. If you take your average Christian and question him, he will probably tell you that his parents brought him to church when he was a kid, etc. etc. Then you ask him: "Do you think you would choose Christianity if you grew up in Indiana in the house of parents who followed Hinduism?" And he will tell you: "Yes, I would." But, that's bullshit. He would probably have followed Hinduism. I don't think religion should be presented as truth to anyone ... let alone children. But, if we're going to have religion, at least keep it tucked away until the kid is old enough to understand the deeper meanings of religion and choose one on his own. That's truly choosing Christ of your own free will (or ... whatever).
well i think bringing your kids up to be atheist is just as wrong. And what you're saying about kids of christians becoming christians. is true. (for most part as my three brothers aren't christians they are atheist) but its also true about kids of atheist becoming atheist. Is that brain washing? I mean if your kids asked you why doesn't he go to church, you'll tell him why. wouldn't you? is that brain washing?Of course a christian will bring their kid up as a christian and there is nothing wrong with that. same as atheist parents will bring their kids up as atheist. and there is nothing wrong with that. Of course a parent is going to bring THEIR child up with the same vaules and beliefs as them. wether they christian, jew, muslim or even atheist. it's only natural.

[wufong]

Originally posted by Stingy Jack
Polygamy is the act of one man taking more than one wife. Vod was saying that in many of these relationships, the husband will betrothe his daughters to another man as early as three years of age. That's pretty funky. yeah those hindus are whacked man!!!!!! really WHACKED!

[Stingy Jack]

Well, I'm not really bringing my kid up to be an atheist. I'm bringing her up to think for herself about that kind of thing. It drives me nuts when I see her praying over her meals and stuff, but, as I said, all I tell her is that "she shouldn't do something like that unless she understands it." When she reaches a certain age (she's only 4 now), and asks me "Why don't I go to church?" I will tell her that she is too young. When she is more mature, and is able to better understand things like religion, then I will allow her to go to church if she so chooses. Honestly, I am trying my hardest to bring her up in a way that she is empowered to make intelligent, informed decisions for herself.

[fluffho]

bringing up a child to be agnostic is different than bringing them up athiest

if my child wanted to go to church, sure id bring them. id first of all ask them which one. probably bring them to a couple. odds are, theyre gonna hate it as most kids DO... i know i did

then if theyw ere to ask questions id say 'i want you to pick but not now your not old enough' type crap

THEN when theyre older you tell them whenever it is that they want to research, go ahead.

[Stingy Jack]

My method almost exactly. I wouldn't bring my kid to church, though. I couldn't be able to contain myself in a pew. I would have to get up and leave and call all sorts of attention to myself. Then, people from that church would see me out and about in the community and want to ask me how I liked their church, blah blah blah. I couldn't handle it!

[fluffho]

lol. well i guess it depends cuz u know how it is. children, well me too, but anyway, they wont givadamn about the red button until u say 'dont touh the red button'

i could just imagine a kid saying OH COME ON BRING ME TO CHURCH MY FRIENDS GO WHATS SO BAD ABOUT IT so i think eventually id hafto give in and bring em.. take em abuot 4 minutes before they started crying

anyway. my religious past is a bit odd, growing up catholic meaning going to church, but the bible i read a lot (pretty pictures) was jehovahs witness.. LOL. 1st communion at 4th grade and i think 2-3 years ago had a scare with my mom cuz i refused to get... whatever that thing is. so i didnt and my mom was like 'it will eb trouble for u' but im not sure she knew what she was tlkaing about and neither of us really givadamn either

BUT i will say ive always wanted to go to a gospel church, juts cuz i LOVE the singing and energy.

[wufong]

well it comes down to the difference in our beliefs. whos to say who is wrong and who is right?what we all need is understanding and the good sence not to force anyones beleifs onto anyone. ( and that includes how a parents raises it's child)
:D

[Stingy Jack]

Wufong, that is an extremely open-minded and refreshing viewpoint coming from you. :)