27 dead, including 18 children, in Connecticut shooting spree!

[_____V_____]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/14/us-connecticut-towns-idUSBRE8BD0U120121214

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2012/12/14/news/connecticut-school-shooting/

(Reuters) - At least 27 people, including 18 children, were killed on Friday when at least one shooter opened fire at an elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut, CBS News reported, citing unnamed officials.

If confirmed, it would be one of the worst mass shootings in U.S. history. The holiday season tragedy follows a series of shooting rampages in the United States this year that have killed multiple victims, and it was certain to revive a debate about U.S. gun laws.

The principal and school psychologist were among the dead, CNN said. Witnesses reported hearing dozens of shots with some saying as many as 100 were fired.

The suspected shooter, 24, was armed with four weapons and wearing a bullet-proof vest, WABC reported.

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with these people?!

[newb]

Fucking horrifying

[hammerfan]

This on top of a guy opening fire at a shopping mall the other day and killing some people. I don't know what the hell is wrong with people anymore.

[Elvis_Christ]

Awful news.

As someone who comes from a country with strict gun laws I find it quite crazy how easy it is to get weapons in the US. Our laws were changed not long after the Aramoana massacre (the events depicted in Out Of The Blue) and I believe it prevented further tragedies.

[Sdkdmd]

Don't know what to say. I'm dumbfounded as to why we let this kind of thing happen.

[nightmare_of _death]

This is so sad. Its horrible how people are going on these rampages. I though there was higher security at schools already. But apperently not. We need better gun control. My thoughts and prayer go out to all effected by all the recent events.

[sfear]

We need better gun control.

This is absolutely correct and will not in anyway put roadblocks on any citizen's path to the second amendment. Is there no ceiling on craziness?

[bamahorrorfan87]

may the shooter rot it hell and god bless his new angels and may god be with the familes

[nightmare_of _death]

This is absolutely correct and will not in anyway put roadblocks on any citizen's path to the second amendment. Is there no ceiling on craziness?


Exactly. People can still own them. Just need to be more aware of who is allowed to own one. In my optinion guns are not the problem its some of the people who own them and how they choose to use them.

[Despare]

Really? So it's not the fact that people treat each other like dirt, do what they please, and have no respect for life at all? In America the people who want guns will get them no matter how legal. I know plenty of people with illegal firearms, explosives, and other instruments of destruction. This isn't a time to push political agendas, it's a time to come together and support the families involved in this tragedy.

[ChronoGrl]

Awful news.

As someone who comes from a country with strict gun laws I find it quite crazy how easy it is to get weapons in the US. Our laws were changed not long after the Aramoana massacre (the events depicted in Out Of The Blue) and I believe it prevented further tragedies.

I totally agree. I hate to bring up politics after such an awful event but I do truly believe that we need better gun control laws.


Really? So it's not the fact that people treat each other like dirt, do what they please, and have no respect for life at all? In America the people who want guns will get them no matter how legal. I know plenty of people with illegal firearms, explosives, and other instruments of destruction. This isn't a time to push political agendas, it's a time to come together and support the families involved in this tragedy.

I hear what you're saying and I know that people are complaining about talking politics but I'm going to be honest - This tragedy is so incredibly unspeakable and horrifying that I just don't know how to react to it or what to say. I could say that I'm thinking of the victims' families but those words just sound so shallow. Commenting on Gun Control is easier than trying to find the "right" words to say in reflection of this awful event.

And typically I'm the kind of person who hates pointing fingers (e.g. "IT WAS MARILYN MANSON'S FAULT" - ugh, please) but Gun Control is something that I feel pretty strong about.

You have a good point about the illegal firearms (which is horrifying by the way), but removing the ability to purchase guns from your local Walmart or Gun Show will make an impact. Baby steps.

[Sdkdmd]

A lot of people say "illegal or not people will get guns." True. But not easily. And just maybe this guy wouldn't of been able to get them. That would mean that 18 children would still be alive.

[paws the great]

I agree that gun laws are not strict enough, but I don't think they should be banned.


"Of the 250,000 kids injured each year, approximately 2,000 die from their injuries. Children make up about 5% of total fatalities due to car accidents. In fact, for children between the ages of 2 and 14, motor vehicle accidents are the leading cause of death". - Articlesbase

Car accidents and alcohol kill far more innocent people every year than guns. How many people on here think we should ban "alcohol"?

[Despare]

And typically I'm the kind of person who hates pointing fingers (e.g. "IT WAS MARILYN MANSON'S FAULT" - ugh, please) but Gun Control is something that I feel pretty strong about.

You have a good point about the illegal firearms (which is horrifying by the way), but removing the ability to purchase guns from your local Walmart or Gun Show will make an impact. Baby steps.

Don't disarm me, a law abiding citizen who acquires a firearm through legitimate means, that's all I ask. We're a country that was founded on fighting the system, perhaps stronger gun laws are a viable option but banning them is just asking for more problems. I know a lot of people from other countries have something to say and that's fine but they have to remember that with the amount of firearms already circulating in this country taking them off the legal market would make little difference when it comes to tragedies like this.

I also hear where your coming from about not being able to find the words to say, this event makes me sick to my stomach. The problem is bad people, and there are so many because in our country (as well as all over the world but I see it more-so on my own doorstep) we treat each other like dirt. I'm no hippy, I'm not saying we need to all hold hands and sing, but we need to start respecting one another or things will just get worse as human-kind circles the drain.

[ChronoGrl]

I'm going to disarm just you, Des, you f'ing hippy. :p

[Despare]

I'm going to disarm just you, Des, you f'ing hippy. :p

lol, Peace love and psychoactives.

I did hear something interesting today though. Here in MI they extended concealed weapons permits to allow for carrying in schools and stadiums among other things for people registered to carry. Do you think if a teacher in that school had a gun that this would have been less severe and/or avoided?

Not to mention the fact that we need to reevaluate our mental health system. In, medicated, released is not the way to go.

[Atraxi]

"Gun control" isn't politics. I'm getting sick of people getting annoyed that people are bringing up gun control and calling it "politics". What's even more infuriating is that every time this happens we start talking about gun control and then everyone forgets about events like these and we go on as normal. I'm not blaming something like these strictly on gun control but this is a talk that we do need to have and more importantly it's an action that we need to take and need to take now.

And on that note, we also need a better healthcare system, especially a much better mental healthcare system. Our priorities are completely f*cked in America.

[Despare]

"Gun control" isn't politics. I'm getting sick of people getting annoyed that people are bringing up gun control and calling it "politics". What's even more infuriating is that every time this happens we start talking about gun control and then everyone forgets about events like these and we go on as normal. I'm not blaming something like these strictly on gun control but this is a talk that we do need to have and more importantly it's an action that we need to take and need to take now.

And on that note, we also need a better healthcare system, especially a much better mental healthcare system. Our priorities are completely f*cked in America.

Gun control is a political issue, how the everloving Hell can you say it isn't?

A man stabbed 22 children outside of an elementary school in China today. Knife control needs to be looked at.


If this were to happen in Africa you would MAYBE read about it on the third page of Yahoo after hearing about the royal family's upcoming addition, Justin Beiber's favorite ice cream, and what some reporter said on ESPN. You would then close the browser, finish your Corn Flakes, and go to work. Shit happens every day and people are assholes.

[neverending]

Don't disarm me, a law abiding citizen

According to reports so far, this gentleman was also a law abiding citizen- until he did what he did.



A man stabbed 22 children outside of an elementary school in China today.

And none of them died.

I'm not saying banning all guns is the answer to tragic scenes like this. In fact nobody in this thread has said that. However, whenever something like this happens, all kinds of people start drawing lines in the sand saying things like "I've never killed anybody- you have no right to take my guns away."

Well- I don't operate heavy machinery, so don't take my weed away.

I've never hijacked an airliner- don't make me take my shoes off.

I don't know what the answer is to violence in our society, or even if there is an answer. I do know that we need to have a diologue that goes deeper than slogans and platitudes.

[Despare]

And none of them died.

Not due to a lack of trying. How about last year in Norway when over 50 kids were killed by an armed man in a country with fairly strict gun control laws? South America has a HUGE number of gun related homicides and far fewer guns than the US with a lot of illegal trafficking.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2012/12/Screen-shot-2012-12-14-at-2.12.43-PM.png

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2012/12/Screen-shot-2012-12-14-at-2.14.17-PM.png

[neverending]

Not due to a lack of trying

That's my point. Apparently it's a bit easier to inflict deadly harm to a large number of people, in a short amount of time, with a gun, than it is with a knife.

[Despare]

That's my point. Apparently it's a bit easier to inflict deadly harm to a large number of people, in a short amount of time, with a gun, than it is with a knife.

Oooook, but those who want to get a gun and kill people will still find a way, just look at the map. My point is that there are always people out there who will want to hurt other people. We could use some stricter laws regulating the sale of firearms but not banning them. Personally I think US citizens should be taught how to use and respect firearms as they grow up, we want the Swiss' health care, let's take a page from their gun control book.


All I know is we're number one in guns per capita and not even in the top 100 of overall homicides per capita.

[neverending]

Again- not one person here has said we should ban all firearms. Why do you keep coming back to that? It's just rhetoric, not meaningful dialogue.

[Atraxi]

A man stabbed 22 children outside of an elementary school in China today. Knife control needs to be looked at.

This is an insanely ignorant statement and not because you're mocking what I've had to say, but in the simplicity of your understanding. As neverending has stated, it's much easier to kill a high number of people in a shorter amount of time with a gun than with a knife. The frequency and specifics in which a weapon is used to kill has to be looked at, this is why we talk about gun control. Comparing knives to guns is ignorant. Guns can be used to kill mass amounts of people in a small amount of time, while concealed, from afar. Not one person has said that we need to get rid of all guns but making it more difficult for people who shouldn't have guns to get guns is essential and in no way should be viewed as controversial.


If this were to happen in Africa you would MAYBE read about it on the third page of Yahoo after hearing about the royal family's upcoming addition, Justin Beiber's favorite ice cream, and what some reporter said on ESPN. You would then close the browser, finish your Corn Flakes, and go to work. Shit happens every day and people are assholes.

It is not just "shit happens every day and people are assholes." How many people need to die for you to actually care? And comparing Africa to America, you have got to be kidding me. And your general assumption is that everyone views these events in the way in which you do- your assumption is incorrect.

Also, it's ridiculous that events like this are caused by so many issues but gun nuts end up co-opting tragedies to rage about their paranoia that the liberals are going to take away their guns. THAT is political.

[Atraxi]

I don't see this thread ending well so I'm bowing out now before it becomes a complete shit show.

[Despare]

Again- not one person here has said we should ban all firearms. Why do you keep coming back to that? It's just rhetoric, not meaningful dialogue.

I agreed with Chrono that stronger gun laws would be a good thing pages ago... I also stated the other part of my position which has to do with the ban of pistols and firearms in general. I never claimed you or anybody else on the boards wanted to ban firearms but there are groups that do and I thought I would throw my entire opinion out there. Is that a problem?

You talk about legitimate dialogue without stating your real position. It's akin to asking somebody "Why?". So Atraxi... Neverending: What to do you guys want to see? Where do you want to see gun control go to and how far of a reach should it have? Don't come at me about meaningful dialogue when you haven't even told me where you stand.

Also, Atraxi, I don't assume anything about the way people look at events like this. I'm just curious as to why people gloss over events like the Houla Massacre or the Utoya Massacre. How many people have to die before you care?




i think every forum iv looked today at is having this argument.

Buckle up, this is just friendly discussion (except maybe for Atraxi, he seems angry), wait until our divided Congressmen try to justify their inflated paychecks by arguing over this.

[neverending]

I don't know the cure for violence in our society. Our country as a whole not only adores guns, they worship them. They are at the very core of our national psyche. At our founding, and for a long time afterward, guns were a necessity. They were needed not only for defense, but for livelihood as well. If you didn't have a gun, you were a non-entity.

The need for guns has largely disappeared, but we still revere them. It's an emotional issue for gun owners. It's such a complex issue I don't think it can be summed up in a few posts on a message board. Personally, I don't think people need guns, and I don't think people should own them. They're just not nice. Their only purpose is to harm.

On the other hand, I'm paranoid enough that the idea of a a society where the only people who own guns are the police and the government, frightens me. That's the idea behind the second amendment.

I think less people should own guns. I think guns should be harder to get. I think they should be tracked better. That's as specific as I'm willing to get.

[Ferox13]

According to reports so far, this gentleman was also a law abiding citizen- until he did what he did.

And doesn't this seem to be the case in the majority of spree killings?

[neverending]

Yes.........

[Sdkdmd]

Gun control would only be the first step to preventing this kind of tragedy.

But than again why make it harder for them when they can always get a knife or make a bomb...

[Sdkdmd]

And why do we need numberous guns including assult weapons to protect ourselves?

[Despare]

The need for guns has largely disappeared, but we still revere them. It's an emotional issue for gun owners. It's such a complex issue I don't think it can be summed up in a few posts on a message board. Personally, I don't think people need guns, and I don't think people should own them. They're just not nice. Their only purpose is to harm.

See, as somebody who is getting his CPL in 2013 and makes regular trips to Detroit I disagree with you there. The purpose of any firearm I own is to protect others. I'm talking about a city where police were called before a son and his mother were even jumped because of harassment and they didn't get there until 45 minutes later (in the downtown area) after both of them needed hospital visits. I suppose you only need to be in that situation once before it's an issue. Oh, and before you say that you shouldn't put yourself in a dangerous situation, it was outside of a concert by Tiger stadium not some back alley.

And why do we need numberous guns including assult weapons to protect ourselves?

We do not, I think the NRA goons will tell you that it's our right to carry any gun that a security force or law officer can. I think, I have no idea what the argument could be for owning an assault rifle.

[Despare]

Somebody Pretending to be Morgan Freeman:

"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.

It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single victim of Columbine? Disturbed

people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."

[Ferox13]

I don't think its as simple as blaming the modern media - I feel they are more of a symptoms than a cause. They are in the business of selling a product so they show/write what is popular and what sells.

I think its just part of the human condition that people are interested in murders, monsters and criminals (be that right or wrong). This isn't something new. History remember the infamous - Marquis De Sade*, Jack the Ripper, Idi Amin, Gilles De Rais, HH Holmes - are known by most people but how many people can name their victims.

Before 'Thug Culture' and Gangster Rap we had had old Ballads glamorizing the deeds of Pirates and Highway Men. During the Roaring Twenties and Troubled Thirties, the media treated Gangsters like John Dillinger and Charles Floyd like rock stars and gave them colourful names like "Pretty Boy" and "Baby Face".

[Despare]

I don't think its as simple as blaming the modern media - I feel they are more of a symptoms than a cause. They are in the business of selling a product so they show/write what is popular and what sells.

I think its just part of the human condition that people are interested in murders, monsters and criminals (be that right or wrong). This isn't something new. History remember the infamous - Marquis De Sade*, Jack the Ripper, Idi Amin, Gilles De Rais, HH Holmes - are known by most people but how many people can name their victims.

Before 'Thug Culture' and Gangster Rap we had had old Ballads glamorizing the deeds of Pirates and Highway Men. During the Roaring Twenties and Troubled Thirties, the media treated Gangsters like John Dillinger and Charles Floyd like rock stars and gave them colourful names like "Pretty Boy" and "Baby Face".


Oh it's not that simple but it is a piece of it. We're so good at dehumanizing our foreign enemies but when it comes to something like this they plaster his picture all over, talk about his home life, blame placing (there was already Video Game talk but then it turned out his brother liked the game and not the shooter...), and generally make this guy into an idol for other monsters. If somebody wants to dig up the info on the guy because they're curious that's one thing but the early hours of a tragedy like this should be focused on the victims.

[roshiq]

I'm no longer a good reader but it was so unspeakable that I wonder whether any writer ever even dared to imagine such tragic incident in his/her mind & could put it in words! Today we're living in a world where truth can be deadlier & uglier than fiction in any minute.

Before this School massacre in Newtown, Connecticut (USA) or the gang rape in a bus, New Delhi (India), we were here already terribly shocked & horrified with the fire at a Garment factory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Dhaka_fire), killing 117 people and the recent...brutal killing of Biswajit Das, a tailoring shop employee, who hacked to death reportedly by the hooligans of Bangladesh Chhatra League (the so called Student Political unit of ruling party) near Victoria Park, DHAKA near a police station on December 9, Sunday during the opposition 18-party-called countrywide road blockade activity. The killing was carried live on numerous TV news channels and the clear pictures of the killers with full identity have appeared in the newspapers the very next day. And that put the ruling government in "a bit awkward situation" & thus lately the police (who initially was quite reluctant) captured some of them.

The injustice & open brutality is becoming a common scenario here. But as per mass child murder or any this sort of mass shooting (other than war or a military invasion) with an assault weapon like Bushmaster, I can't recall anything like or near that ever happened even in this one of the most over populated parts in the world where lives of general people overtaken by murderous propensity and thirst for power & money in a regular basis more or less. May be that's because we don't have any gun industry or an open & sensible gun culture here and IMO...we here actually can't or shouldn't afford guns in personal possession; even that would become a luxury here as per our very low national income level in compare to any developed country.

Though it may not right for me to say anything in this issue, as I'm not living in USA and know very little about the gun culture there but after reading & listening some discussions on TV & articles online, I think to put some new law on gun control issue will have some little impact on happening similar sort of mass shooting in future but the thing is though that would be 'little' but it will at least have some impact, I believe.

[Despare]

Yeah, there was a lot of stuff here in Michigan with remembering the Bath Massacre (an elementary school killing in 1927 that took the lives of 38 kids with explosives) and it really just brings to light how terrible people can be. Throughout time and regardless of technology we can't stop killing each other. It's a shame that we get to hear about news from all over the world as it happens and all we get to hear about is more disaster and death. It doesn't matter if you're from the USA or not, your opinion is just as valid as mine.

[Dara]

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x411/stingle8/10050_446708988725543_587172930_n_zps0e558143.jpg

[viv]

(...) it really just brings to light how terrible people can be. Throughout time and regardless of technology we can't stop killing each other.

Hi Despare

Been following the thread, good to see a conversation here. To comment on your quote^^^. I think the realisation that there will always be an individual somewhere who wants to do other harm is an insightful component for the argument, you're certainly right, we have a murderous history.

But then if we accept this (and I feel all the but most naive would) then the question becomes - how do we control ourselves?

In the UK farmers (and various other people) have the right to own a rifle, occasionally these weapons fall into the wrong hands and are used for killing people - but on the whole (because of the smaller circulation of the weapons) they remain in safe hands, with people who have a genuine reason for possessing a them.

I'm interested in understanding how a firearm is protective in domestic circumstances, for me a firearm is only protective insofar as it is threatening to do harm to the threat. It is not a protective tool, more a potently threatening tool - a potency thats prospect can be used as protection.

But unfortunately, people are very pre-emptive. And naturally, if you suspect a threat of aggression from someone you need to at least be able to level out the playing field with your own threat - most likely another gun. This is played out in burglaries gone wrong scenarios - the difference is the threat of choice, and the threat people can generally gain access to.

So in an environment where all have firearm access is very high - threat levelling strategies will lead to a situation whereby all have guns, simply because all have guns. Whereas in other environments threat could be levelled with less lethal weapons (kitchen knives, base ball bats, metal sticks, whatever).

In the latter environment there will always be a minority who do raise their threat above the norm and gain access (illegally) to a gun. Likewise in the former there will lots of responsible usage that helps society. But the general dynamic of threat matching (a la cold war) is there. The question of gun control is that of where do we want the generalised threat levelling to land, - at the level of a firearm, or less lethal weapons such as knives. Personally I feel the lower the better, as this will preserve life.

----

Media etc does play a role but I feel ultimately this is a grey an area to discuss as the weather, I think addressing what level of threat we want people to have access to is the real issue. Mental health issues also, there will, unfortunately, always be someone who slips through the system and becomes dangerous - how easy should it be for these people to access weapons?

Despare - (this isn't necessarily directly to you but in response to) when you say "regardless of technology" I cannot agree - I feel the issue of gun control pivots around technology.

If you are concerned about protection, and the threat you are protecting against by harbouring another threat (threat levelling)- then technology's capacity to harm becomes the question - in the this game theory/cold war concern over the next mans ability to harm you or your friends or family I ask for question -(if you could change the world tomorrow) do you want to play (generally speaking) for bruises and scars or gun shots and body bags?

Thanks for reading this far if you have, discussion is important.