HDC Weekly Debate: Are sexily-dressed women inviting trouble?

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A single comment by a Canadian police official has sparked off protests across that nation and the world, with women up in arms about the way they dress -- and now it's coming to India.

When in January, Constable Michael Sanguinetti stated in a Toronto-based safety forum that "women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimised", it created an uproar.

Three months later, the city saw its first 'SlutWalk' protest, with over 3,000 women taking to the streets in a march "against the belief that any aspect of a woman's appearance might explain or excuse rape".

Holding signs that read 'Sexy is NOT an invite for rape!' and 'Believe it or not, my outfit has NOTHING to do with YOU!' and chanting slogans, protesters in both ordinary and provocative clothing made their way to the Toronto Police Headquarters.

While Constable Sanguinetti apologised for his comment, it hasn't deterred people in other nations across the globe from holding similar 'SlutWalk' protests to express their solidarity -- New York, Los Angeles, Mexico, London, Stockholm, Johannesburg and Melbourne, to name a few.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g12/ravenavi/13protest.jpg

And now, New Delhi will join the ranks next month. Over 4,000 Facebook users have pledged to participate and the rally in the capital promises to make a mark.

It's hardly surprising that New Delhi is the first Indian city to jump on the bandwagon, considering that it is considered one of our most unsafe for women; a quarter of all rapes that occurred in India last year were reported there.

While opinions are divided as to the method of protest and its effectiveness, New Delhi's SlutWalk seems to be well on track and the media is all set to document history in the making.

[swiss tony]

Well, I predict that this is going to be the shortest debate in HDC history. In this day and age, it really is astonishing that someone in a reasonably senior job, can be this crass and blinkered. There is clearly only one conclusion a right-minded person draw...

...sluts are people too and should be permitted to safely dress accordingly!:D

[hammerfan]

Of course, I agree with the women. We should be able to dress as we want without having to worry about some man with overloaded testosterone.

[TheWickerFan]

Of course, I agree with the women. We should be able to dress as we want without having to worry about some man with overloaded testosterone.

Exactly. Men can be real pigs.

[cheebacheeba]

Rape should not occur even if someone is wearing NO clothes...
That said - if inviting "trouble" can be seen as having peoples opinions of them be that they're either "slutty" or "un-classy", and that this perception might get them a certain type of treatment...be it admittance barred at certain locations, males lapping it up while never actually considering them for a "serious" relationship, disapproving friends/family causing inherent problems if they DO, or not being considered to have an "appropriate" appearance for any number of reasons...then yes, even though I do not personally persecute them as such (in fact, like clowns I enjoy looking at them but unfortunately on account of what they're wearing and how they conduct themselves I wouldn't exactly take them seriously), these opinions do exist and limitations will present themselves.

Besides, in all honesty the one thing I'm kind of sick of seeing is women and girls that are too far north or south of the age group for which "sexy" clothing, actually is.
Goes without saying that for a guy, it makes me feel perverted when girls under 18, hell, under 15 dress in less than I've seen actual hookers wear.
Also not saying that females of a certain age group can no longer BE sexy...but, really there's nothing sadder than seeing a 40+ woman trying to pull off a tight crop top and cut-offs as anything other than bed/house clothes...Regardless of how much of her body she still can (or can not) squeeze into it, all my mind is telling me is "Do they seriously still have it in their mind to dress like this at their age? What are they trying to prove" - Neither of these parties, can I take seriously.
Sexy doesn't have to be about a particular type of clothing either, those that always dress "sexy" in my opinion know very little about what it is.
These days IMO the sexier thing is to actually show a little more dignity, but hey, just me.

There's a time and a place for many a form of attire.
I think even if a person was wearing "sexy" clothing, I'd draw a line between that and those that ALWAYS wear "sexy" clothing - because that comes down to attention seeking really.
One other thing I'll throw in, because it's something that I'll just do...and I don't give a fuck about negative opinions on it at all - lets just say if a woman catches me looking at her exposed tits or observing that from 3-4 steps behind them on an escalator I can see actual ass-cheek, and then acts offended like I'm in the wrong? I find this pretty amusing, without unnecessarily dissecting why males do this, I can say that the expectation to not be looked at, (or alternatively only looked at by the one from whom you are seeking attention) is in fact quite similar to expecting to stand on a busy train track, and not get hit.
It is how it is - you put yourself on display and you'll get looked at. In my case, it's a glance, in a lot of cases it's full-on ogling.
But, chicks - if you don't know this happens by now, write it on a nail and hammer it into your head - I'll sooner be demonised for breathing.

On the rape thing - still not an excuse.
Though, perhaps what it is...is that a potential rapist would be a bit of an opportunistic predator, as well as choosing women that are alone, probably more slight of frame etc a "target", it could simply be that they see less clothing that they would have to remove.
Maybe they also think not a lot of people would "take them seriously" if they were to report it?
I mean whether or not you like it, you KNOW how many people have the default setting of "dress like a slut, get treated like one". This whole 'slutwalk' thing wouldn't exist otherwise.
So in those terms if "inviting trouble" can be considered something that someone could do unintentionally or results in an unjustifiable assault, well then on that hand you have to say they do - Not everyone has self restraint and operates as a normal part of society, and rapists most certainly don't.
You're not talking about ordinary males - you don't know what an "implied" invitation is to a nutjob rapist...
"against the belief that any aspect of a woman's appearance might explain or excuse rape"
True, it's no excuse and may not "explain" it...but it's likely a factor in play in the mind of someone that would perpetrate a rape.

So two answers I suppose...
To a "normal" person - No.
To a rapist - most likely.
Neither of these answers mean anyone would "deserve" it though.

[Freak]

A woman should not be a victim of rape no matter what she wears or how she acts.

But what I find to be funny is how a woman will dress sexy and revealing then get pissed when a man stares at them.

[hammerfan]

Also not saying that females of a certain age group can no longer BE sexy...but, really there's nothing sadder than seeing a 40+ woman trying to pull off a tight crop top and cut-offs. Regardless of how much of her body she still can (or can not) squeeze into it, all my mind is telling me is "Do they seriously still have it in their mind to dress like this at their age? What are they trying to prove" - Neither of these parties, can I take seriously.

Hence, the reason whenever I'm out shopping with my sister I constantly ask "Do I look like an idiot in this? Do I look like I'm trying to recapture my 20s?" I'm always so afraid of looking like one of "those" women" LOL

[cheebacheeba]

Hence, the reason whenever I'm out shopping with my sister I constantly ask "Do I look like an idiot in this? Do I look like I'm trying to recapture my 20s?" I'm always so afraid of looking like one of "those" women" LOL

If you have the presence of mind to actually ponder these things, then I'm pretty sure you're safe from that fate.
Older chicks can still look sexy as all hell...I think dressing "young" is one of the unsexiest things they can actually do. Funny how with the intent how counterproductive it can be.

But what I find to be funny is how a woman will dress sexy and revealing then get pissed when a man stares at them.
Yup, I laugh along with you.
Like walking past a "free bbq" and not eating.

[TheWickerFan]

Hence, the reason whenever I'm out shopping with my sister I constantly ask "Do I look like an idiot in this? Do I look like I'm trying to recapture my 20s?" I'm always so afraid of looking like one of "those" women" LOL

I know what you mean. I hope jeans and t-shirts are still okay for a 40+ woman because that's what I usually wear. I have accepted that my bikini, mini-skirt, and tube top days are over.:(

[hammerfan]

I know what you mean. I hope jeans and t-shirts are still okay for a 40+ woman because that's what I usually wear. I have accepted that my bikini, mini-skirt, and tube top days are over.:(

Don't forget short shorts. Or, what we called hot pants. :D

And, cheebs, it's very easy to slip over the line without realizing it. You think you look great, you come out of the dressing room, and your sister has this horrified look on her face that says "Oh no you're not!". LOL

[FreddyMyers]

Hence, the reason whenever I'm out shopping with my sister I constantly ask "Do I look like an idiot in this? Do I look like I'm trying to recapture my 20s?" I'm always so afraid of looking like one of "those" women" LOL

Hahaha. I serve "those" women all the time at my bar. Must be the area. You literally cant convince them their not hot and they look like they stole their daughters clothes. Doesnt work often but when it does you can bet her drink is never empty.

[Straker]

Another blow for womens lib.... 'Dress like a whore and parade around the streets and you too can strike a blow for women everywhere.' What a fucking joke. I don't know if this concept is morphing and trying to focus more on the rape angle now, but these walks were more based around sexual liberation and somehow 'reclaiming' the word slut for women. Being sexually promiscuous or acting and dressing like a slut are not really positive or useful ways to empower women and the idea that you can somehow 'reclaim' a word that has never been used positively is totally retarded.

In a highly sexual modern culture where young women already feel the pressure of needing to be sexually active, do we really want to be promoting promiscuous behaviour? I think not.

The 'Slutwalk' is the typical overhyped, jingoistic bullshit that we are seeing more and more off. Style over substance. Get a bunch of women who have a voice and want to be proactive and manipulate them with smart advertising and catchy taglines, via cheap online advertising. In the meantime we'll just sit back and watch teen pregnancies rise year on year while young girls chase a misguided view of equality and womens lib.

Women should be allowed to dress how they want without fear of rape. Women have the right to demand equality and anytime they are misrepresented need to do what they can to draw attention to issues that matter. However, I personally think the 'Slutwalk' concept is one of the weakest, most convoluted and confused reasons to march the streets I have ever heard.

[bwind22]

Here's my take on this...

Of course women (and anyone) else should be able to wear whatever they want, but I don't think that's what the cop was saying. He wasn't saying no one can dress slutty. He was saying to be smart about how they dress.

Can a skinhead wear a swasticka on his shirt while strolling through Compton or Harlem? Sure, he has every right to do so. Does that make it a smart idea? No, of course not, because of the negative attention it will bring him.

Can I walk around Vegas flashing hundred dollar bills at anyone that looks my way? Sure. Will I end up getting mugged? Probably.

Same principle applies to slutty dressed women.

We can't prevent all criminals from committing all crimes at all times, but we can take personal precautions to descrease the odds that we become one of their victims. I get the sense that this was what the cop was trying to say.

[fortunato]

Right. Since dressing provocatively isn't a crime, then the onus is obviously on someone else to not commit a crime. I agree with bwind, though; unfortunately there's a reality to dressing that way, just as there's a reality to waving $100 bills around a city street. You should be able to do that, in an ideal world, but there are twisted criminals out there, and you have to be careful. But really, that's not even the point, I guess. The point is that people should wear whatever they want to wear and not have to worry about being attacked. It's nonsense to argue otherwise, I think.

[ManchestrMorgue]

No woman "deserves" to be sexually assaulted. Nothing can justify that crime.

Unfortunately, we live in a world with some wonderful and beautiful things in it, as well as some horrific and disgusting aspects. Everyone needs to exercise caution, and different situations will necessitate different levels of caution (as stated above, walking around dangerous areas with large wads of money in your hand is pretty risky and likely to get you assaulted).

None of this is "right". I would like to be able to not have to exercise caution when I am simply walking around on the streets. But I also want to avoid any trouble that I can avoid.

Unfortunately, no matter how careful you are, you can't protect yourself 100%.

It is really unfortunate that these questions need to be asked. It is a sad indictment on our society that anyone needs to fear attack.

I also think it is sad that guys can walk around with no shirts, shorts etc and no-one sees them as being sexually provocative. However if a woman dresses to show a bit of skin (even if everything that is required to be covered is covered) she is considered a slut.

As far as I am concerned, a bit of class, dignity, and taste goes a long way, whether it be for men or women...

[TheWickerFan]

Unfortunately, whether or not a woman was dressed like a slut is quite often used against her in court. The idea that dressing sexy is "asking for it" is very wrong and the heart of the reason women are so up in arms over what that policeman said.

[ManchestrMorgue]

Unfortunately, whether or not a woman was dressed like a slut is quite often used against her in court. The idea that dressing sexy is "asking for it" is very wrong and the heart of the reason women are so up in arms over what that policeman said.

And this is clearly wrong. The way someone dresses should never be used as a mitigating factor in an assault. It is amazing that this sort of defense would even be considered - those that use it probably deserve to have their sentence increased, as their personality clearly doesn't have room for empathy for their victim.

[TheWickerFan]

And this is clearly wrong. The way someone dresses should never be used as a mitigating factor in an assault. It is amazing that this sort of defense would even be considered - those that use it probably deserve to have their sentence increased, as their personality clearly doesn't have room for empathy for their victim.

http://goodmenproject.com/newsroom/judge-pardons-rapist-because-victim-was-wearing-a-tube-top/comment-page-1/

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Here is rediff's article on the Delhi SlutWalk, plus an interview with the girls (first pic) who are organising it -

http://www.rediff.com/getahead/slide-show/slide-show-1-specials-all-about-delhis-first-ever-slutwalk/20110616.htm

Excerpts -

"Delhi is often referred to as the 'rape capital' of India. And for good reason too. If statistics are disaggregated, every day more than one woman is raped on the streets of the city. What's more, one in every four cases of rape in Indian cities is registered in Delhi, which, incidentally, has a lady on the seat of Chief Minister."


"In 2005, after a girl from Northeast India was raped in Delhi, the Vice Principal of Kirori Mal College in Delhi University said, "There should be a separate dress code for Northeast students, particularly girls", hinting that the victim's dress was the reason for her rape. The Vice Principal also stated that "revealing dresses" worn by girls from India's Northeast triggered "angry responses" from men.

Add to that a statement by the Chief Minister of Delhi, Sheila Dixit, after a female journalist was attacked and murdered when she was on her way back home after work: "All by herself till 3 am at night in a city where people believe...you know...you should not be so adventurous.""


Repeated instances of crime against women in Delhi, with the blame laid on the fairer sex, have disillusioned a group of female students. A simple act of rebellion by one of them, 19-year-old Umang Sabarwal, resulted in overwhelming responses from Delhi women. In response to Umang's page on Facebook, inviting women to a SlutWalk on the streets of the capital, thousands of women showed their solidarity. So vast was the response that Umang had to actually postpone her event and enlist the support of many more like-minded women to organise the event.


"We, as female students have experienced sexual harassment in one form or another. Men think that they own the public space and that they can pass comments on us as and when they feel the need. That is what we intend to change -- the whole concept of public space must change. Women normally never respond when men try to show them that they own the public space. It is everywhere. You are taught not to respond to teasing -- be it in a bus or in any public space," says Mishika.

"There is a specialised compartment for the women in Delhi metros. Men just stand at the edge of these compartments and stare at you all the while, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of a separate compartment," Umang says.


Unlike the SlutWalk held in Toronto, Boston, Chicago and Hamilton, the SlutWalk in Delhi does not encourage fishnet stockings, see-throughs or micro-minis.

"Women in Delhi are harassed irrespective of what they wear. A girl in a salwar kameez is sexually harassed as much as a girl in so-called 'revealing' clothes. There is no dress code for the SlutWalk in Delhi. Women can wear what they please," Mishika says.

Shivani Kala, a student of Jamia Milia University, is one of the women who is attending the walk. She did her graduation from Hindu College in Delhi University and has undergone all the horrors a female student goes through in the capital.

Says Shivani, "I used to undertake a one hour-long bus journey from my home to college. It is unbelievable how helpless you can be in a crowded bus. Once, a man physically assaulted me inside a bus. It was so crowded that I could not even see the face of my attacker. I screamed, but nobody, not even the women came to my help. After I got off, I sat down at the bus stop opposite my college and cried for about an hour because of the humiliation. An elderly woman, who had seen my ordeal in the bus sat down next to me and without uttering a word, gave me a safety pin. I have that pin with me till date and I carry it whenever I travel in a bus," says Shivani.


Another aspect that these college girls have to take into consideration is crowd management. If responses on Facebook are to be believed, 12,000 people will take part in the SlutWalk.

"Yes, we are aware of the crowd management problems. For this very reason, we will make sure that we have at least 100 volunteers. We will have to take help from the Delhi police as well. A friend's father is a senior police officer in Delhi. We plan to seek his advice on crowd management," Mishika says.

The Delhi police, though not contacted by the group directly, are aware of the SlutWalk. Though an official permission is yet to be sought, cops say that they will provide protection and cops will deputed for crowd management.

[X¤MurderDoll¤X]

yesh

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[newb]

I think you woman should all wear Burkas and stop teasing us guys....I mean...we're only human..damn-it

[X¤MurderDoll¤X]

if steak didn't want to be eaten, it wouldn't be so delicious

[newb]

if steak didn't want to be eaten, it wouldn't be so delicious

damn straight...with A1 sauce


welcome back ;)

[TheWickerFan]

if steak didn't want to be eaten, it wouldn't be so delicious

Thank heavens, the voice of reason! Wonderful to see you again Murderdoll.:)

[swiss tony]

if steak didn't want to be eaten, it wouldn't be so delicious

Some cuts are tastier than others and a lot depends on who's cooking it. Also, you can't underestimate the importance of proper seasoning. :)

[ferretchucker]

if steak didn't want to be eaten, it wouldn't be so delicious

What do you know? Last night I was thinking "HDC could do with a totally impartial, eternally friendly, welcoming and respectful of all views mediator." And look! Here you are!


Must have jinxed it... ;)


As for the issue at hand, I think a certain realism is needed. Rapists are out there, and they WILL be tantalised by scanty clothing. Women should be able to wear what they want, but being realistic they need to be aware that a certain risk comes with that. In no way should the woman be even slightly blamed, but they need to accept at the same time that they may have been sugar to the fly that is the sexual predator.