The zombie genre is flawed?!

[_____V_____]

At least, according to this guy -

http://goseetalk.com/2010/04/20/random-film-thought-of-the-day-zombies/

He raises some pretty valid points. And, questions to which I d very much like to know the answers myself.

The replies to his blog-post clarify a lot of the stuff though.

[Straker]

They don't always finish off people they start eating because of their fickle nature. The grass is always greener on the other side and all that. They might start devouring someone only to hear someone screaming or maybe hear a car horn in the distance. There's no way a Zombie would be able to not go check it out. Then you're left with a fair few partically devoured people being reanimated. Zombies are too fickle to finish a meal.

The life expectancy of zombies is indefinate. They have been reanimated, after all. I would say a zombie who is prepared to eat well and exercise and maintain a high protein diet will be around for many years after reanimation.

Digging out of a casket 6 feet under takes time and dedication. With hard work, perseverance and the right grade of soil to dig through it is an achievable goal....

Zombies by their very nature are inconsistant- Alan Partridge.

[Doc Faustus]

Also, the creatures everybody calls zombies are actually ghouls.

[crabapple]

Yes, marauding ghouls.

[neverending]

I always thought a ghoul was a LIVING person who ate people- not a reanimated corpse.

According to dictionary.com, the defining quality of a ghoul is that they rob graves, and also they mention they are often demons or evil spirits:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ghoul

None of this seems to fit with zombie lore. They don't rob graves- they look for living victims, and they certainly aren't demons or spirits.

I'll have to disagree with Doc & crabby.

[Doc Faustus]

There are stories about demonic ghouls eating the flesh of the dead. And yes, they aren't by nature undead but ghouls are a lot closer to Romero zombies that voduon zombies are. If you want to be really specific, the closest creature to the zombie as we know it, according to Jonathan Mayberry's awesome book They Bite is called the Craquehe (I have no clue if I'm spelling that right and the book is upstairs). But, since the defining quality of ghouls is that they are supernatural cannibals that devour the flesh of the dead I think it's a moor apt phraseology than zombies, which are harmless and tragic.

[neverending]

But zombies are not seeking the flesh of the dead- they want living flesh...

[cheebacheeba]

They want... dying ...flesh




































































....flesh for fantasy

[Rayne]

I always thought that a ghoul was the exact opposite of a zombie

Zombie - Dead eats the living

Ghoul - Living eats the dead

But, I see them both as 'creatures'...Humanoid, but not human

[cheebacheeba]

But, I see them both as 'creatures'...Humanoid, but not human
I see them as a little girl in a pink dress, sticking a hotdog through a doughnut.

[Doc Faustus]

I always thought that a ghoul was the exact opposite of a zombie

Zombie - Dead eats the living

Ghoul - Living eats the dead

But, I see them both as 'creatures'...Humanoid, but not human

That's the thing, folkloric zombies aren't cannibalistic at all, but ghouls do eat flesh. Even though that flesh usually comes from the dead. I'm still not satisfied by the term zombie used in that way.

[The_Return]

But zombies are not seeking the flesh of the dead- they want living flesh...

Doc's right though - by the classical definition, zombies don't want flesh at all. That was born with Romero, more or less.

[ferretchucker]

I see his points though. You see these zombies limping around slowly detereorating. At what point do they rot too much and just collapse? You never see living skeltons in zombie movies, in theory you could. Or is it just when their heads eventually fall off?

[Doc Faustus]

Also, Romero himself didn't use the word zombie.

[Zero]

i think one key distinction is between biological zombies (like romero or 28 days) and 'magic/voodoo' zombies

[ferretchucker]

I long for another film with Magic Voodoo zombies. Too often a film with have "infected" people. NO! I just want reanimated corpses! Or go for the Romero/Shaun of the Dead approach and not explain it at all.

[neverending]

Romero hinted at an explaination- something about rays from outer space. Flash eating zombies may have had their genesis with Romero, but why hold that against them? The distinction between a craving for living or dead flesh still marks the difference between a ghoul and a zombie for me.

[The_Return]

Flash eating zombies

Like this guy?

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i94/Vampenguin/the-black-flash.jpg

[Doc Faustus]

It's not that I have anything against them. It's just that things like that drive me nuts. Like how we say panini. And you can buy one panini. Can you buy one pizzas? Can you buy one hotdogs? You cannot. You can buy one panino or multiple panini.

[neverending]

The one thing that still unifies pre and post Romero zombies is that they're reanimated corpses. This has nothing to do with ghouls. So, to say that a reanimated corpse is actually a ghoul because it eats flesh doesn't make sense to me. It's still a reanimated corpse, and therefore a zombie.

[newb]

It's not that I have anything against them. It's just that things like that drive me nuts. Like how we say panini. And you can buy one panini. Can you buy one pizzas? Can you buy one hotdogs? You cannot. You can buy one panino or multiple panini.

now i want a pizzas

[The Krell]

Great thread! Some interesting points made throughout.In my eyes,a zombie(post Romero) is a creature who has come back from the dead by whatever means and craves flesh.Living flesh.This is an important distinction when discussing rage victims like those in the aforementioned 28 Days Later versus the films that i consider Z movies,like Night of the Living Dead and Re-animator.This is not a rule set in stone or anything like that.Just a matter of personal taste and opinion.I think that unless we are talking about Voodoo Zombies who were often still alive but in a death like state,a Zombie is corpse who comes back to life with a serious need to feed on delicious people beef.As V said a page or two back,this marks the difference between a ghoul and a zombie.

[neverending]

The "reality" of a voodoo zombie- whether it's a person in a death like state, is debatable. People have doubted the veracity of Wade Davis' claims. But the LEGEND of the voodoo zombie was that a person died, and was then revived by a voodoo priest. Thus- the defining characteristic of a zombie- folklorinc, pre or post Romero, is that of a reanimated corpse- whether it feeds on flesh or not.

And it was Doc who made the distinction, not V- and he's still wrong. A reanimated corpse is a zombie- whether it eats flesh or not. His flesh eating does not make him a ghoul. A ghoul is a demon.

[The Krell]

My apologies for the mix up on the one remark.
Any re-animated corpse is a Zombie?That's a reasonable opinion,but to further muddy the waters..is it still a Zombie if its a combination of various dead peoples body parts? For instance,Frankensteins monster?

[neverending]

No- which is why Re-Animator doesn't fill the bill.

[Doc Faustus]

Actually, some reanimated corpses are revenants.

[The Krell]

No- which is why Re-Animator doesn't fill the bill.

Ok Nev,I follow your point.Just for clarification some of the re-animated in Re-animator are whole bodies.Just shoot some green stuff in them and watch em go! I'm guessing you are talking about some of Dr.West's more..ahem.. "peculiar" experiments.

[Scarebaby]

I was under the impression that voodoo zombies aren't dead, reanimated people, but people who have been thoroughly hypnotized and 'brainwashed' and are kept as slaves by their voodoo masters.

[ferretchucker]

So many technicalities on this one word! Although, I do definitely see why doc is arguing his point. So many little things like that bug me.

But we all know what we mean!!!

[milktoaste]

I've got to side with NE on this one, but the definition of what a zombie is certainly seems like fickle ground. There are countless cases of people being revived from the the dead, be it drowning victims or what have you; but it is the eating of 'human' flesh and the fact that their hearts aren't pumping that really seem to define what a Zombie is. Once these certain ground rules can be established, many-if not all- questions could be answered with logic and reason.

I still say if surviving the Z-war is your goal, move as far North as you can. Any creature without a pulse will turn into a popsicle at or around 32 degrees F or 0 degrees C (and below). Ice sculptures aren't scary.

[neverending]

So any zombie in a pre-romero film aren't zombies? Because there's no eating of flesh.

[Rayne]

Wow, after reading all of this, My head is filled with mental images of White Zombie and Serpent and the Rainbow zombies, fighting with Night of the Living Dead zombies and 28 Days Later rage "zombies"...Each of which are completely different, yet in some respects similar, types of 'zombie'...Except for 'rage victim' who shares many characteristics, but isn't really a true 'zombie' at all....*sigh*...I need some sleep...

[ferretchucker]

I'd say a zombie is the body of a dead person reanimated and no longer mortal, thus meaning they would not age as such, although they may decay. A zombie seems to be were the mind lives on (albeit damaged by the death) but the body continues to decay.

[milktoaste]

So any zombie in a pre-romero film aren't zombies? Because there's no eating of flesh.

I'd say the 'flawed Zombies' in question are the flesh eating type, yes. Voodoo slave zombies are totally different, that has already been pointed out here. If we can't agree on what a 'zombie' is, how can figure out whether or not the genre is as flawed as the original article suggested. Maybe we could come up with a classification system of our own. Then we could move a head with the discussion.

If zombies have brain patterns, and muscle control, why don't they have a pulse? If the muscles in the rest of their body function (somewhat) normally, why not their heart?

[Roderick Usher]

The way I have always seen it is:

Post Romero Zombies (PRZs for you cool kids) are dead, which means they don't breathe, their heart doesn't beat and they have no need for food. Somehow they have developed anarobic brain function, but the brain is working purely on an animal-level instinct.

The eating is a compulsion, a remnant of living ways, but they never feel full (they don't feel anything) so they keep eating. A PRZ will eat until it's stomach blows open and then still keep eating.

As a dead thing a PRZ will continue to decay. It will stop moving once it's muscles and tendons have rotten away from the bones. A warm, humid environment will speed up the process, a cool dry one can prolong the zombified state.

[milktoaste]

but the brain is working purely on an animal-level instinct.


Then why isn't propagation more important to them, as in Dead-Alive?

Walking is in itself an extremely complicated task, even at the slow bumbling level. I still don't buy that a zombies' heart wouldn't also be fully capable of pumping, even if irregularly or even experiencing ventricular fibrillation (random non-functional twitching).

[Elvis_Christ]

You never see living skeltons in zombie movies, in theory you could. Or is it just when their heads eventually fall off?

Return of the Living Dead had one briefly right before 45 Grave's tune starts up.

[_____V_____]

Which brings us to an important question - Can we regard a brain as functional when the heart in that body has stopped beating? Does a zombie actually have "brains"? If they do, it will explain the whole concept of a "voodoo zombie".

A zombie is a walking corpse, right? That means there is some semblance of brain activity. Not necessarily any heart pumping. Hmm...

I mean, for the brain to function it MUST need some sort of stimulator right? If there is no blood being pumped into it, how is it working? Electrical nerve twitches?

Or we go back to Doc's definition and accept that we have been regarding flesh-eating ghouls as the modern post-Notld zombies all along.

There should be some difference...

[ferretchucker]

They're just fictional, must we know all the details? Think of it like God, if you can't think of an explanation just say "Well, they're Zombies. They can do what they like."

[roshiq]

I think the whole living dead or zombie concept was developed in a purely fictional value without need for making any sense and just to entertain the genre fans in a new level of fantasy. But its enormous popularity, specially under Romero's social or political criticism-umbrella this has been seems now a days a very serious issue as his followers in the industry as well as we, the fan groups---"the zombies of the real world" have been dealing the matter too critically & seriously than it deserved and the problem lies somewhere in between here.

Fuck the ghouls, shoot the zombies in the head & just try to enjoy the films.

Anyway, I don't know why but an idea just came to my mind while reading the whole thread...A story or film about VEGETARIAN ZOMBIES! In a very fertile land of green plants & crops one 'fine' day all the dead are rising (for 'whatever' reason) & starts to eating all the green plants & trees which clearly indicates soon that green-fertile land will turn into a desert! Now, if you try to stop them by shooting on their head...they may not rise again but the problem is the 'virus' will spread on the air from their body/mouth so fast that it'll turn any living human into another Veg Zombie!

:D:D:D

[ChronoGrl]

The eating is a compulsion, a remnant of living ways, but they never feel full (they don't feel anything) so they keep eating. A PRZ will eat until it's stomach blows open and then still keep eating.


I agree with Rod, especially with this point, where I go back to our original Blogger. This has honestly been something that's bothered me:

Semantic argument aside (I am ignorant in terms of the terms), if they (The Walking/Living Dead/Zombies/ Whatever) have an unstoppable hunger for flesh/brains/whatever, how is it that they are able to spawn at all - At what point do they stop eating? This question doesn't apply to those who "got away" with a single bite - Of those that came out of a hoard, how is it that they weren't completely devoured?

That has always bugged me. You see zombies chowing down on completely ripped apart corpses, but at the same time you see growing hoards. If their brains aren't intelligent enough to consider reproduction (indeed, as we've seen, the whole CONCEPT of the PRZ is "Consumption" vs. "Reproduction;" the zombie being a pure CONSUMER), then how do the zombie hoards grow at all? Wouldn't they just keep CONSUMING? I mean, Romero goes out of his way (in Dawn of the Dead in particular) to draw the metaphor between the WALKIND DEAD CONSUMER and, well, the US Consumers (Mall, anyone?)... If they are massive brainless consuming machines, how is it that they don't just keep eating humans... How is it that zombies are created at all? How can they stop?

[Despare]

In the Monster Island books the author has a zombie and we see what he's feeling about eating, there's a glow, an enticing lifeforce that calls out to the zombie. Dead meat doesn't have anywhere near the appeal of the live and doesn't keep the zombies as... fresh? Anyway, I'd always assumed that zombies ate until all the life left their victim and if that happened before the unfortunate soul was ripped to shreds they would become a zombie. Some hung on longer than others or had to deal with more zombies feasting on them. The bigger the horde, the less new zombies spring to unlife.

[milktoaste]

Roshiq's vegetarian zombies are awesome! What if it was a plant pollen that turned you, and when you shot them in the head a cloud of this pollen would spray out?

Perhaps a meteor shower of millions of magnetic particles (traveling slow enough not to burn up in the atmosphere) could cause some strange fluctuations in the earth's natural electromagnetic field causing radio wave-like patterns that stimulate the brain stem of the dead. Or even a large extremely magnetic asteroid. And maybe it's not so much living flesh they crave, but oxygenated blood. Hmmmm, well that my up to the minute theory any way.

[ferretchucker]

Perhaps a meteor shower of millions of magnetic particles (traveling slow enough not to burn up in the atmosphere) could cause some strange fluctuations in the earth's natural electromagnetic field causing radio wave-like patterns that stimulate the brain stem of the dead. Or even a large extremely magnetic asteroid. And maybe it's not so much living flesh they crave, but oxygenated blood. Hmmmm, well that my up to the minute theory any way.

I'm stealing that for HDC: Zombiescape

[milktoaste]

I'm stealing that for HDC: Zombiescape

Have your way with it:D

[Caenxavier]

Zombie seems more like an umbrella term these days.