Hell

[milktoaste]

I'm not what I would consider religous, I went to church every Sunday till I was about 8 and maybe 15 times in the last 20 years(not counting weddings or wakes). Yet some of the scariest movies I've seen involve Satan, demons and posession. We've learned more about Hell from poets than from prophets. Milton and Dante poured the foundation of the popular imagination of Hell today, but more and more people's opinion of Hell seem to be changing.

Being a father and having childhood friends who have been or are still in prison for atrocious crimes, I'm finding it harder and harder to believe in Hell. An omnipresent being is going to torture everyone till the end of time who didn't kiss it's ass while they were alive? If there is no Hell can there really be a Heaven? What's more grim, murderers in Heaven or no afterlife at all?

I fall into the non-believer catagory, and I'm not depressed by that at all. I could be wrong(it's happened before) but it all feels like Crowd Control and Marketing had a baby and named it Religion. What are some of your beliefs on eternal punishment, is there a hell? What is it like? How bad do you have to be to end up there?

[newb]

NEWB'S HELL

http://nevadamagazine.com/images/articles/Celine_Dion_by_PR_sig.jpg

[hammerfan]

NEWB'S HELL

http://nevadamagazine.com/images/articles/Celine_Dion_by_PR_sig.jpg


Amen, brother!! That's my hell, too, only throw in Michael Bolton, too!

[urgeok2]

my beliefs ?

there is no heaven, there is no hell.

we are all happy (and not so happy) accidents.

its up to you to choose how you want to spend this time. working within a society - being a good person ?

or being a piece of shit.


thats pretty much it.

[psycho d]

Agnostism is where it's at. That's where they hide the heroin...

Seriously, i do not believe in a prisonlike system for eternal punishment. It seems to me that all western "book" religions are based too much on how we try to run things here on Earth. i am a fan of Karma, though, and i do not really wish to find out how that all pans out. The common theme seems to be that one keeps making the trek back to earth after death until he or she gets things right. Again, that seems a little contrived to me, but at least much more believable than demons with pitchforks.

What really scares me is the concept of soul entrapment, where something gains the power or ability to trap your soul forever in a form of eternally cold isolation, using it in ways that only an evil ghoul could think up. i have this sneaking suspicion that those that do not follow the general flight plan of morality are more susceptible to some such demise.

i am also a fan of the concept of ancestor worship, which also works on a form of karma. In Vodou (which primarily originated from West African belief), the dead that played by the rules during life are remembered by their families. Celebrations are held in their honor, and after some period of time (one year and one day i think) they may be allowed passage into the realm of the ancestors, which sounds like a pretty decent place for the soul to kick it. Those people not inclined to behave themselves while alive are believed to be forgotten by their surviving families and friends, and no celebrations are held for them, no passage to the land of the ancestors. They are left in a sort of limbo, which is believed to be in a cold, cold place at the bottom of the sea. There is even a specific ceremony where a houngan (Vodou priest) helps with this passage of those souls that were remembered and honored by the family. During this ceremony, there are always chilling accounts of the forgotten dead begging to be allowed passage, but all to no avail. They are litererally to be left alone in the damp cold for eternity.
Great topic; love to hear some more thoughts. Ashe.

[Papillon Noir]

I was raised Catholic and I'm an Atheist. It's not that I didn't want to believe (it's nice to think that someone is watching over you and you can go somewhere nice when you die), but through research into Art and History, you can really see how Christian beliefs have evolved and it's pretty much a bunch of hooey to me.

That being said, the evolution of the concept of Hell and fire and brimstone is really been created by different people from different cultures in different time periods, which contributes to Satan have different names (Lucifer, the Devil, etc) and appearances (red man with satyr legs, dapper man, etc).

A place called Gehenna near Jerusalem, is considered the inspiration for Hell as we know it today since it was basically a giant trash dump. They would burn the trash and sometimes that place would burn for days or weeks with a horrible smell.

During the Renaissance, it was Dante who put order and definition to Hell with his Inferno portion of the Divine Comedy based on earlier depictions in art of the Last Judgement of Christ.

The was a pretty good documentary that came out recently (you can get it on Netflix) called the History of the Devil. It's rather short (only 50min), but it basically gives a general rundown of the Devil and Hell through the ages and how the ideas have evolved. I would recommend checking it out if you're interested.

[ferretchucker]

Hell is a motivator to help people live in a kind, caring and compassionate way. That's the way I view it.

The idea of hell that's now widespread I think it scary when you think deeply about it but it's been made into a bit of a cartoon.

[UngodlyWarlock]

Hell is good inspiration for artwork.

[Aperion]

I'm not what I would consider religous, I went to church every Sunday till I was about 8 and maybe 15 times in the last 20 years(not counting weddings or wakes). Yet some of the scariest movies I've seen involve Satan, demons and posession. We've learned more about Hell from poets than from prophets. Milton and Dante poured the foundation of the popular imagination of Hell today, but more and more people's opinion of Hell seem to be changing.

Being a father and having childhood friends who have been or are still in prison for atrocious crimes, I'm finding it harder and harder to believe in Hell. An omnipresent being is going to torture everyone till the end of time who didn't kiss it's ass while they were alive? If there is no Hell can there really be a Heaven? What's more grim, murderers in Heaven or no afterlife at all?

I fall into the non-believer catagory, and I'm not depressed by that at all. I could be wrong(it's happened before) but it all feels like Crowd Control and Marketing had a baby and named it Religion. What are some of your beliefs on eternal punishment, is there a hell? What is it like? How bad do you have to be to end up there?

I personally am a non-believer on the whole bit as well. Yet I too find movies like the Exorcist and Omen creep me the hell out. I think it's partly my catholic childhood and that when I watch those movies I always do so by myself in the dark.

I do not believe, in anything religious or supernatural - I'm not scared of some Deity, I'm scared of the people who do believe - those are the ones who will put a bullet in your head, or start a war or blow something up [however, to be fair, that's because humans suck - if somehow there was no religion people would still find plenty of "reasons" to be horrible and kill people]. If there was a God in the conventional way most people believe, I'm not scared of "Him" either - I'll spend an eternity in hell if "His" insecurity is so great "He" must be worshipped. That is downright evil! Not 'beautiful and good.' Isn't anyone else creeped out when politicians mention God? That is the scariest thing ever. You know all of them, yes, every last one by definition of being a public figure are liars and whores and nothing more.

And which deity? So many religious traditions have been lost throughout the ages, that we will never know about. The ones most people believe in today, indeed are a direct result of marketing and crowd control. The KJV of the Bible is an awful translation, yet it's what so many believe in, and those many will never bother to study the Greek and Hebrew it was written in. They'll just mention a few passages that justify their actions, or help get them elected or whatever it is they need to justify.

For those that believe and are sincere, are really are deep down good people - I do understand that. It's scary, in some way we all probably need somethin.

Personally, I like to meditate with no religious trappings. Shutting up and thinking for a bit is good.

When it comes to the concept of Hell in particular, it's merely a human invention, part of mythology, nothing more. The controllers of various religions make all sorts of claims about hell, who goes there, and for what all the time - and this has changed throughout the centuries. This has nothing to do with a "God" and everything to do with evil humans trying to get groups of people under control. Also a lot of it is the situation a person might be in - for example, if you lived in the middle ages in Europe, life was harsh, violent and short. OF COURSE you want and need to believe in hell and paradise, and that you can and will get to paradise/heaven.

[cheebacheeba]

I think that both heaven and hell are constructs of the imagination, and spread into something beyond that as it went further out into common "knowledge".

I DO believe that there's some reason, some...thing that happened to make ourselves, the animals, and the world around us evolve the way they are/did but I don't like to put a "man made" name or concept on it.

I don't do religion...I don't diss those that do, well, aside from the stupid ass fanatics that represent any given religious group poorly.
See, the one common theme I've heard is a thing with a lot of religions is how the Christians and Catholics etc would put it "Don't worship false idols"...that there statement, and a few of the aforementioned fanatics have been what's steered me clear of organised religion.
I mean...don't worship false idols...pretty much every "bible" has something like that thrown in there, and I just do not like the odds.

One thing I really dislike, is religion being bought into schooling - I honestly think that this is about as close to legalised brainwashing as you can get.
Religion is something a person ought to be told about the concept of, and if they care to "find" it, or further investigate, they ought to be allowed to do so in their own time.

Aside from, I consider religious texts to be at most, guidelines.
Sometimes a little misguided and out of date, but overall guidelines to not do shitty fucked up shit to others.

So, I try to live like that...because if there is something/someone out there watching over us as subjects or a pet project etc, I'd like to think that if what I'm doing already isn't good enough for them/it, well, I'm a better judge of character to want to be in their presence anyways.

[novakru]

The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis
Yep, it will be EXACTLY like that story.

[Doc Faustus]

Whether or not there is some sort of official burning place or thinking place, a soul rises if it rises and suffers if it has brought suffering. Without an earthly way for these things to happen, it is not to me inconceivable for a soul to place itself in a state of pure suffering or pure bliss dependent upon karmic conditions.

[milktoaste]

Whether or not there is some sort of official burning place or thinking place, a soul rises if it rises and suffers if it has brought suffering. Without an earthly way for these things to happen, it is not to me inconceivable for a soul to place itself in a state of pure suffering or pure bliss dependent upon karmic conditions.

So can one cause justifiable suffering, or can accidental suffering be inflicted without 'bad' karma weighing that persons soul down? I'm not 100% on the karma thing, as I strongly believe bad things happen to good people, but I am more and more interested in learning more about it.

[Papillon Noir]

Whether or not there is some sort of official burning place or thinking place, a soul rises if it rises and suffers if it has brought suffering. Without an earthly way for these things to happen, it is not to me inconceivable for a soul to place itself in a state of pure suffering or pure bliss dependent upon karmic conditions.

What do you think about Purgatory? Or is it a non-issue?

[novakru]

I have been waiting for a response that delves into the absurdity of ETERNAL damnation for an average of about 70 years of life.
Even if you were a complete shit from the moment you were born till the day you die... ETERNAL suffering??
That's just ... wrong, on so many levels. At some point you gotta realize " oh man, I was an ASSHOLE, let me go check this Heaven thing out."

[Noah]

I'm gonna quote my brother on this one:

If there IS a "God" and he sends me to an eternal place of torture & damnation called "Hell" - Then on my way down, I'll be flipping him the bird and saying "FUCK YOU ASSHOLE!!" - I mean what's he gonna do? Send me to hell? ;)

[scouse mac]

I cant remember who said it but, Hell is spending eternity trapped in a room with your friends (apparently).


For what its worth Hell, Heaven, God etc etc do not exist. There is no such thing and people who do spend time worshipping the same are wasting a whole chunk of their life.

[MichaelMyers]

I cant remember who said it but, Hell is spending eternity trapped in a room with your friends (apparently).




John-Paul Sarte, No Exit. "Hell is other people."

[Shemonsterdevil]

Unlike the poster.... I have never been wrong. Hell is crowd control for the religious. For the rest of us and especially for horror fans it's the opportunity to create fear without suggestive imagery. Everyone's personal hell is different. Everyone's demon tortures them differently in a very personal way. It's cheap story telling... Though effective.

[Sculpt]

I think that both heaven and hell are constructs of the imagination, and spread into something beyond that as it went further out into common "knowledge".

I DO believe that there's some reason, some...thing that happened to make ourselves, the animals, and the world around us evolve the way they are/did but I don't like to put a "man made" name or concept on it.

I don't do religion...I don't diss those that do, well, aside from the stupid ass fanatics that represent any given religious group poorly.
See, the one common theme I've heard is a thing with a lot of religions is how the Christians and Catholics etc would put it "Don't worship false idols"...that there statement, and a few of the aforementioned fanatics have been what's steered me clear of organised religion.
I mean...don't worship false idols...pretty much every "bible" has something like that thrown in there, and I just do not like the odds.

One thing I really dislike, is religion being bought into schooling - I honestly think that this is about as close to legalised brainwashing as you can get.
Religion is something a person ought to be told about the concept of, and if they care to "find" it, or further investigate, they ought to be allowed to do so in their own time.

Aside from, I consider religious texts to be at most, guidelines.
Sometimes a little misguided and out of date, but overall guidelines to not do shitty fucked up shit to others.

So, I try to live like that...because if there is something/someone out there watching over us as subjects or a pet project etc, I'd like to think that if what I'm doing already isn't good enough for them/it, well, I'm a better judge of character to want to be in their presence anyways.
cheebacheeba, I'm really interested in the subject matter, highlighted in your statements about human 'constructs of the imagination, & spread into something beyond that as it went further out into common "knowledge"'.

It brings to mind an exercise, where accomplished meditators were in front of a molecule of water that was being photographed with high magnification. One meditator per molecule, & would concentrate on compassion, hatred or confusion, etc., & project that at the water. The photographs revealed the shapes of the molecules were very different; & one may say subjectively, the form resembled the thought.

Then of course there's the concepts of the Observation Effect (observer affecting experiments), quantum physics, collective unconscious & synchronicity, telekinesis, apport (materialization), Unus Mundus, 'The Secret', relativism, etc. I think this 'projecting reality', in regards our current life, Hell & the afterlife, when applied to critical thinking & the objective physical universe, is a cautionary tale.

If we accept two or more individuals exist in the same physical reality -- consider two individuals, Sue & Dorothy, are moving toward each other. Dorothy is driving a car. Both individuals concentrate, believe & project their wills: Sue believes/perceives Dorothy & car do not exist or have no solid form in relation to herself. Dorothy believes/perceives Sue exists. When they meet one will be correct, & the other will not. Where two or more are, whatever dimension one is in, where there is relationship, there is an objective reality.

Imagine if you exist in a reality where only you really exist. My opinion is that would truly be a hell. Can real love exist without relationship, without two or more? I think love, friendship & relationship requires it. I don't want be without love.

You may be thinking of making projecting reality a matter of quantity. Such as if a million individuals conceive Hell is one thing, but only 999,999 conceive it something else, then the millions' conception wins the reality. Or each group gets their own reality. The problem immediately starts from there: because if this is the mechanism in which reality is formed, each of the individuals will certainly disagree on any of the infinite elements of these two new realities, so they fall apart.

The groups of people are either 'one' (or the non-one, Brahman of Hinduism), or more than one separate being. Separate beings occupying different positions & perspectives, & thus would project at least some fraction of 'differing reality', preventing them from coexisting in the same reality. On the other hand, if we are all 'one' (non-one), then there is only one objective reality. Either way two or more can’t exist in a ‘projected reality’ of Hell, afterlife or reality. Would you also think these are mutually exclusive?

I think the concept of a creator god holds a resolution to a quandary. God as the originator, the omnipotent one creates & sustains the objective reality, in any of its dimensions (life, afterlife, 'heaven', 'hell'). Individuals live in & affect it, but not create nor sustain it. This is good, in that, if a despicably cruel evil person is not restrained, we are eternal victims in their power.

[Sculpt]

I'm not what I would consider religous, I went to church every Sunday till I was about 8 and maybe 15 times in the last 20 years(not counting weddings or wakes). Yet some of the scariest movies I've seen involve Satan, demons and posession. We've learned more about Hell from poets than from prophets. Milton and Dante poured the foundation of the popular imagination of Hell today, but more and more people's opinion of Hell seem to be changing.

Being a father and having childhood friends who have been or are still in prison for atrocious crimes, I'm finding it harder and harder to believe in Hell. An omnipresent being is going to torture everyone till the end of time who didn't kiss it's ass while they were alive? If there is no Hell can there really be a Heaven? What's more grim, murderers in Heaven or no afterlife at all?

I fall into the non-believer catagory, and I'm not depressed by that at all. I could be wrong(it's happened before) but it all feels like Crowd Control and Marketing had a baby and named it Religion. What are some of your beliefs on eternal punishment, is there a hell? What is it like? How bad do you have to be to end up there?
Like Papillon Noir said, our current Western concept of Hell has evolved, & taken left & right turns. From the Torah or Old Testatment, 'Sheol' is a holding place for all the dead. Then there's Jerusalem's Gehenna, where trash was burned, is the root for Hades, as translated Hell in the New Testament. As Aperion says, there is often poor translation & understanding of the texts & context. Then Dante introduced a whole new paradigm of Hell & the Devil.

I'm drawn to study major belief systems, listen & respect others' beliefs, perspectives & rights.

Personally, I think Hell is in some ways close to the book Novakru referenced: The Great Divorce. I believe I didn't create myself, others, or existence, nor do I sustain it; & that God did, & does. I believe God will resurrect everyone, & our lives accounted. I believe those that acknowledge & honor God as creator/sustainer of existence, life, love; & honors God as God, they resurrect to a new life, body & home with God's presence, love, peace & joy. There we continue to mature, learn, love & live life. I think those who decide to reject God resurrect without benefits God provides. This is Hell.

'Hell' is 'forever' in the sense it will remain the same without God. God will not allow one to forever take the benefits from God without honoring & establishing a good love relationship with God, & while choosing to do all manner of cruelty & evil. I believe God places limitations & establishes justice. It's 'torment' in the sense it's without God's benefits, presence & love. Not Dante's view that someone is physically torturing someone for eternity. (Incidentally, that's not in the Bible.)

Exactly all that is, when & how, I don't know. I believe all this is out of my control, & I trust my God who created love & justice will work it out with love & justice. I derive my beliefs from sources & experiences.

[Straker]

I think the concept of a creator god holds a resolution to a quandary. God as the originator, the omnipotent one creates & sustains the objective reality, in any of its dimensions (life, afterlife, 'heaven', 'hell').

Is it really a quandry that is necessary to resolve through a leap of faith though?


I think those who decide to reject God resurrect without benefits God provides. This is Hell.


What are the benefits you believe 'God' would provide?

[Sculpt]

Is it really a quandry that is necessary to resolve through a leap of faith though?
In the context of the theory Cheebacheeba was describing, I explained how I figured it contradicted a mutually exclusive logic, which I called a quandary. The logic I lay out is objective reality is constant because it's from a single constant source.

I'm applying my life long experience, the evidence of this existence, to our speculation of what lies after death. It's odd you would label that a 'leap of faith', but Cheebacheeba's speculation that it's different that current reality (as I understood it) you did not consider a 'leap of faith'. Is it because I mentioned 'God' that makes 'leap of faith' come to mind?

I mean, clearly stating there's no hell or no god, when we can't know if either exist, is a blunt statement of faith/belief. Obviously we all come to conclusions based on the totality of our life experiences. I take it 'leap of faith' didn't enter your mind when you read those responses. Or did it? Kind of interesting, if I was understanding you correctly. = )

[Sculpt]

What are the benefits you believe 'God' would provide?
I'll try to be brief with a huge subject. The benefits God would provide are: life and love itself; the ability to love; resurrection after death to a home God created for me; a continued loving relationship with God; God's protection from various evils, inabilities or shortcomings of others that would otherwise result in my destruction, corruption, isolation, etc; reunion with family and friends; continuing to discover the nature of reality, God, maturing in love, knowledge and wisdom. My life long experiences, God, inward recognitions and numerous sources provide me understanding and faith in these things. Numerous sources describe God's character (I am the Lord who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness, for in these I delight.) (And we know & rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way love is made complete among us so that we may have confidence in the day of judgement.), and God/Yeshua's promises (I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand), and that God has the power to fulfill what God declares.

[Straker]

I mean, clearly stating there's no hell or no god, when we can't know if either exist, is a blunt statement of faith/belief. Obviously we all come to conclusions based on the totality of our life experiences. I take it 'leap of faith' didn't enter your mind when you read those responses. Or did it? Kind of interesting, if I was understanding you correctly. = )

Not believing in a god isn't something that requires any leap of faith though, there's no evidence to suggest there is a god that is tangible or quantifiable. By believing in a god there is a leap of faith or an attempt to fill in the gaps that science can't.

I'll try to be brief with a huge subject. The benefits God would provide are: life and love itself; the ability to love; resurrection after death to a home God created for me; a continued loving relationship with God; God's protection from various evils, inabilities or shortcomings of others that would otherwise result in my destruction, corruption, isolation, etc; reunion with family and friends; continuing to discover the nature of reality, God, maturing in love, knowledge and wisdom. My life long experiences, God, inward recognitions and numerous sources provide me understanding and faith in these things. Numerous sources describe God's character (I am the Lord who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness, for in these I delight), God/Yeshua's promises (I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand), and that God has the power to fulfill what God declares.

Sounds awesome but I would need some sort of evidence to support any of those claims... If someone offered me all that I'd assume it was some sort of dodgy pyramid scheme and I was gonna get fleeced when it was time to cash out.

*I know religion is a bitch of a subject and incredibly emotive so no offense is intended with anything I say.*

[Sculpt]

Sounds awesome but I would need some sort of evidence to support any of those claims... If someone offered me all that I'd assume it was some sort of dodgy pyramid scheme and I was gonna get fleeced when it was time to cash out.

*I know religion is a bitch of a subject and incredibly emotive so no offense is intended with anything I say.*
No offense taken. I often learn the most when I speak with someone with different views. We should all be able to talk about important things with good will. Free marketplace of ideas. Belief systems are emotive, I've noticed, both for and against things.

What I describe does sound good. You want proof? I think the most important thing to remember is it's not about information or about what I state I believe. It's about relationship, trusting in who God is. Relationship begins with recognition, then trust, then experience.

Think of a loved one: wife, mother/father, friend. How can you know if they really love you? Can you know? If they love you, and you don't believe it, does that make their love false? If they love you, and you don't trust it, you can't receive it. If there's no trust, forgiveness, there's no relationship. I have experience with a stone outside, but I don't have a relationship with it.

There's evidence everywhere. You could ask for proof, and some powerful being, or illusionist, could perform these amazing things before you. But after you saw it, you'd realize there's other ways to explain it. And it doesn't mean you can 'trust' that person. There's a trust in someone, through relationship, through experience.

[Sculpt]

Not believing in a god isn't something that requires any leap of faith though, there's no evidence to suggest there is a god that is tangible or quantifiable. By believing in a god there is a leap of faith or an attempt to fill in the gaps that science can't.
Yes, not believing there is a God doesn't require a leap of faith... believing there is no god does requires a leap of faith. Those are two distinctly different things. Please don't confuse with semantics.

An agnostic says he doesn't know if there is a god or not. He neither believes there is, nor isn't, a god.

Both a theist and an atheist believe in something they can't prove empirically. Experiences can lead one to conclude one thing or another. In the way you can't see the wind, but can see the effects of the wind -- one may believe there's a God based on what they perceive are the effects of God, or the artwork as evidence of the artist. But can a human, who cannot know everything, know God doesn't exist? I think you have to believe God doesn't exist. Which the bigger belief leap?

[Straker]

That seems like a long winded way to say you have no empirical evidence to back up the idea of a supreme creator... You compared God to the wind but where we can quantify and measure the effects of the wind we have to deal in perception and feelings when trying to measure the effects of god. I'd say that comparing god to the wind simply because we can see neither feels like a weak argument considering we have so much evidence to demonstrate the existance of wind.

In terms of the whole leap of faith, I think I used a poor term there since by your logic everything we do is a leap of faith unless it can be proven to the nth degree. I would simply rather work on weight of evidence. An atheist believes there is/are no god/s. There is no tangible evidence to support the idea of a creator and there is no more reason to believe in a god than there is to believe we are all figments of our own imagination. Could atheists be wrong? Of course, but the acceptance of that doesn't make one an agnostic.

There is as much eidence to suggest we are all living in the Matrix as there is to believe in a supreme creator, but if I were to postulate that as a legitimate theory people would rightly call me a muppet...

[Sculpt]

Stalker, from your last post, I can see you'd like to debate the subject. I was just trying to answer your questions. As you can tell, I do like to exchange ideas and apply critical thinking to subjects oftentimes. Regarding this particular subject (God, or my belief in God), I'm spirited to answer anyone's questions, but specifically not compete in a debate (especially cause it's off the thread's hell topic).

If anyone would prefer, on any subject (or debate) I am happy to respond to anyone's PMs (Private Messages).

.

[Straker]

Stalker, from your last post, I can see you'd like to debate the subject. I was just trying to answer your questions. As you can tell, I do like to exchange ideas and apply critical thinking to subjects oftentimes. Regarding this particular subject (God, or my belief in God), I'm spirited to answer anyone's questions, but specifically not compete in a debate (especially cause it's off the thread's hell topic).

If anyone would prefer, on any subject (or debate) I am happy to respond to anyone's PMs (Private Messages).


Wasn't really looking for a protracted debate either, and any observations weren't really directed at you specifically. Just trying to throw another opinion into the dialouge that was unfolding... Don't think we drifted too far off the original topic anyway.

[ntillemans]

I was raised Catholic. I revisit this notion of Heaven and Hell constantly in my life. I neither believe nor disbelieve in it. It is obvious to me that there are limitations to human perception. These limitations serve us well in our day to day survival. Yet, it is a big leap of faith to accept that we have it all figured out somehow and have a real grasp on eternity--either by taking the intuitive leaps that religion requires or following the hyper-focused, plodding methodology of empiricism. I am agnostic. I try to keep an open mind. And I have reason to keep an open mind.

I know that religion has been used in all manner of devious ways; but that does not mean that there is no substance to its premise. Certainly, all these notions about eternal damnation suggest a Heaven that no one really wants to live in...to be a sycophant to a God ready to cause such pain and suffering to empiricists (who spend their lives seeking the Truth). But maybe that's all wrong and part of some deception. I can't pretend to know.

I think that a lot of good comes from the morality religion teaches...but only when it is actively questioned and kept alive that way. A lot of bad comes from blindly following religion. But it is not inherently corrupt.

I'm not here to convince anyone to believe one thing or another. But I've had experiences to make me think twice. Seven or eight years ago, a friend of mine invited me to a CBM (Christian Businessmen) meeting. I ate their food and sat through the meeting. At the end of the meeting, they asked me to fill something out that asked me whether or not I had chosen to accept Jesus as my personal savior. I checked the "NO" box. Later that day, I turned on the "Oldies Station" and Mike Oldfield's "Tubular Bells" was playing and the next track was Carol King's "It's Too Late". Since when do they play Tubular Bells on the Oldies Station? But who knows?

Some people would accept that experience I had as proof of a God. I don't know how I would know whether it was a Benevolent Deity or a Malevolent one or just some bizarre coincidence, besides indoctrination. I keep an open mind and I will teach my son to do the same.

Thank you all for posting your thoughts about this subject. It could be so terribly important to know the Truth. But how could we be expected to know it?

[Sculpt]

I was raised Catholic. I revisit this notion of Heaven and Hell constantly in my life. I neither believe nor disbelieve in it. It is obvious to me that there are limitations to human perception. These limitations serve us well in our day to day survival. Yet, it is a big leap of faith to accept that we have it all figured out somehow and have a real grasp on eternity--either by taking the intuitive leaps that religion requires or following the hyper-focused, plodding methodology of empiricism. I am agnostic. I try to keep an open mind. And I have reason to keep an open mind.

I know that religion has been used in all manner of devious ways; but that does not mean that there is no substance to its premise. Certainly, all these notions about eternal damnation suggest a Heaven that no one really wants to live in...to be a sycophant to a God ready to cause such pain and suffering to empiricists (who spend their lives seeking the Truth). But maybe that's all wrong and part of some deception. I can't pretend to know.

I think that a lot of good comes from the morality religion teaches...but only when it is actively questioned and kept alive that way. A lot of bad comes from blindly following religion. But it is not inherently corrupt.

I'm not here to convince anyone to believe one thing or another. But I've had experiences to make me think twice. Seven or eight years ago, a friend of mine invited me to a CBM (Christian Businessmen) meeting. I ate their food and sat through the meeting. At the end of the meeting, they asked me to fill something out that asked me whether or not I had chosen to accept Jesus as my personal savior. I checked the "NO" box. Later that day, I turned on the "Oldies Station" and Mike Oldfield's "Tubular Bells" was playing and the next track was Carol King's "It's Too Late". Since when do they play Tubular Bells on the Oldies Station? But who knows?

Some people would accept that experience I had as proof of a God. I don't know how I would know whether it was a Benevolent Deity or a Malevolent one or just some bizarre coincidence, besides indoctrination. I keep an open mind and I will teach my son to do the same.

Thank you all for posting your thoughts about this subject. It could be so terribly important to know the Truth. But how could we be expected to know it?
Hey Ntill, I was like, what's Tubular Bells? Just listened to it on youtube. It's the theme for the Exorcist. At first the song kind of unnerved me, but I just kicked back and listened with me headphones. It's actually not a scary song at all, it's really rather sweet. Amazing how association taints, and clear concentration enlightens, various things.

I certainly can't tell you if your experiences are from malevolent being, God or purely happenstance. I wouldn't want to point you the wrong direction.

I share your search for Truth. So many things can be scrutinized and broken down till nothing is certain or truth. But vacuums get filled, and we have to examine what we're being filled with lest we be filled with falsehood, delusion and enmity.

How can we expect to know truth is a good question. I think we exist, and were created (if you will) a certain way, with an inate understanding of Natural Law (right/wrong) that exists, to the bizarre extent that we actually know we ought to behave a certain way, but that we usually don't act that way. There is an internal recognition, and also one that's wrong. That seems like a good truth to start with.

What comes to my mind right now is something Jesus/Yeshua said, "My sheep recognize my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. So no one can take them from me. The Father and I are one." Being called sheep by a man sounds a lot like the unnerving intro to Tubular Bells. But if it wasn't said by someone who wasn't merely a man, than that context changes an awful lot.

Reading your post, I think the content and perfectly clear logic you're looking to investigate is the C.S. Lewis book called Mere Christianity. You can read online for free, check it out from your library, I see there's even a 35 part audio book on youtube. You'll know what I mean if you start reading it. (or read 'More Than a Carpenter' if you're looking for something more succinct. PS- It's not about Karen Carpenter.)

[ntillemans]

Hey Ntill, I was like, what's Tubular Bells? Just listened to it on youtube. It's the theme for the Exorcist. At first the song kind of unnerved me, but I just kicked back and listened with me headphones. It's actually not a scary song at all, it's really rather sweet. Amazing how association taints, and clear concentration enlightens, various things.

I certainly can't tell you if your experiences are from malevolent being, God or purely happenstance. I wouldn't want to point you the wrong direction.

I share your search for Truth. So many things can be scrutinized and broken down till nothing is certain or truth. But vacuums get filled, and we have to examine what we're being filled with lest we be filled with falsehood, delusion and enmity.

How can we expect to know truth is a good question. I think we exist, and were created (if you will) a certain way, with an inate understanding of Natural Law (right/wrong) that exists, to the bizarre extent that we actually know we ought to behave a certain way, but that we usually don't act that way. There is an internal recognition, and also one that's wrong. That seems like a good truth to start with.

What comes to my mind right now is something Jesus/Yeshua said, "My sheep recognize my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. So no one can take them from me. The Father and I are one." Being called sheep by a man sounds a lot like the unnerving intro to Tubular Bells. But if it wasn't said by someone who wasn't merely a man, than that context changes an awful lot.

Reading your post, I think the content and perfectly clear logic you're looking to investigate is the C.S. Lewis book called Mere Christianity. You can read online for free, check it out from your library, I see there's even a 35 part audio book on youtube. You'll know what I mean if you start reading it. (or read 'More Than a Carpenter' if you're looking for something more succinct. PS- It's not about Karen Carpenter.)
"PS- It's not about Karen Carpenter."

Too bad. That would have been a great (auto?) biography.

[horrorfangirl66]

I was raised Catholic. I revisit this notion of Heaven and Hell constantly in my life. I neither believe nor disbelieve in it. It is obvious to me that there are limitations to human perception. These limitations serve us well in our day to day survival. Yet, it is a big leap of faith to accept that we have it all figured out somehow and have a real grasp on eternity--either by taking the intuitive leaps that religion requires or following the hyper-focused, plodding methodology of empiricism. I am agnostic. I try to keep an open mind. And I have reason to keep an open mind.

I know that religion has been used in all manner of devious ways; but that does not mean that there is no substance to its premise. Certainly, all these notions about eternal damnation suggest a Heaven that no one really wants to live in...to be a sycophant to a God ready to cause such pain and suffering to empiricists (who spend their lives seeking the Truth). But maybe that's all wrong and part of some deception. I can't pretend to know.

I think that a lot of good comes from the morality religion teaches...but only when it is actively questioned and kept alive that way. A lot of bad comes from blindly following religion. But it is not inherently corrupt.

I'm not here to convince anyone to believe one thing or another. But I've had experiences to make me think twice. Seven or eight years ago, a friend of mine invited me to a CBM (Christian Businessmen) meeting. I ate their food and sat through the meeting. At the end of the meeting, they asked me to fill something out that asked me whether or not I had chosen to accept Jesus as my personal savior. I checked the "NO" box. Later that day, I turned on the "Oldies Station" and Mike Oldfield's "Tubular Bells" was playing and the next track was Carol King's "It's Too Late". Since when do they play Tubular Bells on the Oldies Station? But who knows?

Some people would accept that experience I had as proof of a God. I don't know how I would know whether it was a Benevolent Deity or a Malevolent one or just some bizarre coincidence, besides indoctrination. I keep an open mind and I will teach my son to do the same.

Thank you all for posting your thoughts about this subject. It could be so terribly important to know the Truth. But how could we be expected to know it?


I am on point with you in this more agnostic seeker approach to religion. I was raised Christian. My dad is non-religious and my mom is Christian. Although they were very much more interested in passing down the morals to me and then allowing me to formulate my own beliefs from there. I will want that for my children. I think the world is too vast and unknown to make up my mind about it. I have have odd occurrences such and you and I think that is what makes the world and the unknown so much more interesting. I think the reason we love horror is because it brings the supernatural and all the things we don't understand to life for us. It shocks us and makes us wonder even more. Although some films you never want to be real or actually exist in the unknown. Haha.

But I love this quote by Marus Aurelius to sum up how I view religion and the afterlife :

“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”

[ntillemans]

I am on point with you in this more agnostic seeker approach to religion. I was raised Christian. My dad is non-religious and my mom is Christian. Although they were very much more interested in passing down the morals to me and then allowing me to formulate my own beliefs from there. I will want that for my children. I think the world is too vast and unknown to make up my mind about it. I have have odd occurrences such and you and I think that is what makes the world and the unknown so much more interesting. I think the reason we love horror is because it brings the supernatural and all the things we don't understand to life for us. It shocks us and makes us wonder even more. Although some films you never want to be real or actually exist in the unknown. Haha.

But I love this quote by Marus Aurelius to sum up how I view religion and the afterlife :

“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”

I've always found kindred spirits in people who are fans of horror. And I think, as you stated, that we wrestle with the unknown. That is why we love horror. Your quote captures my sentiments precisely. I don't think I could put it any better than that.

[newb]

I was raised Catholic. I revisit this notion of Heaven and Hell constantly in my life. I neither believe nor disbelieve in it. It is obvious to me that there are limitations to human perception. These limitations serve us well in our day to day survival. Yet, it is a big leap of faith to accept that we have it all figured out somehow and have a real grasp on eternity--either by taking the intuitive leaps that religion requires or following the hyper-focused, plodding methodology of empiricism. I am agnostic. I try to keep an open mind. And I have reason to keep an open mind.

I know that religion has been used in all manner of devious ways; but that does not mean that there is no substance to its premise. Certainly, all these notions about eternal damnation suggest a Heaven that no one really wants to live in...to be a sycophant to a God ready to cause such pain and suffering to empiricists (who spend their lives seeking the Truth). But maybe that's all wrong and part of some deception. I can't pretend to know.

I think that a lot of good comes from the morality religion teaches...but only when it is actively questioned and kept alive that way. A lot of bad comes from blindly following religion. But it is not inherently corrupt.

I'm not here to convince anyone to believe one thing or another. But I've had experiences to make me think twice. Seven or eight years ago, a friend of mine invited me to a CBM (Christian Businessmen) meeting. I ate their food and sat through the meeting. At the end of the meeting, they asked me to fill something out that asked me whether or not I had chosen to accept Jesus as my personal savior. I checked the "NO" box. Later that day, I turned on the "Oldies Station" and Mike Oldfield's "Tubular Bells" was playing and the next track was Carol King's "It's Too Late". Since when do they play Tubular Bells on the Oldies Station? But who knows?

Some people would accept that experience I had as proof of a God. I don't know how I would know whether it was a Benevolent Deity or a Malevolent one or just some bizarre coincidence, besides indoctrination. I keep an open mind and I will teach my son to do the same.

Thank you all for posting your thoughts about this subject. It could be so terribly important to know the Truth. But how could we be expected to know it?

well said......and I'm sure it's not the first time a deity used Carol King as a recruiting tool. ;)

[ntillemans]

well said......and I'm sure it's not the first time a deity used Carol King as a recruiting tool. ;)

Thanks for paying me the compliment. You can't possibly be wrong about the whole recruiting tool business. Who can forget her many other great recruiting songs. This one, for instance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOyvYnkdEcc