Pinhead - villain or dark hero?

[Klaatu Barada Nikto]

So I just finished watching Hellraiser I & II (Hellbound), which in my opinion are the only two good ones in the entire franchise. And coincidentally, both films have Pinhead and his minions coming to the rescue of Ashley Laurence's character, sort of like a unsung hero, while someone else played the chief villain's ball. But Hellraiser III and the other films in the series have Pinhead as main villain, not to mention a totally convoluted plotline in every subsequent sequel, and I am thinking that it might be the reason why the rest of the sequels sucked as compared to I & II. :rolleyes:

Thoughts, dawgs?

[urgeok2]

the reason most of the sequels are bad is the reason most franchises are horrible after the 1st film or 2.

1) over exposure. the 'creatures' are more interesting when they are still a mystery

2) poor writing. sequels are usually made to make $$$ not because someone was inspired with a great new story to tell. they quickly run out of ideas

3) poor direction. once the initial filmmaker gains fame - he/she moves on and they give the sequels to up and comers.. people with little or no experience.

4) the origional cast is long gone by now. everyone you liked - except for the one person (usually the villian) they are trying to hang the franchise on has buggered off.


i believe these rules apply to every series that have run to #4 or more.

[The Mothman]

i believe these rules apply to every series that have run to #4 or more.

I thought the Death Wish series stayed pretty strong throughout.

[Elvis_Christ]

I thought the Death Wish series stayed pretty strong throughout.

Agreed! I dug all of them especially the third film.

[urgeok2]

I thought the Death Wish series stayed pretty strong throughout.

although i dont think they're all that good - it's a different animal than a horror franchise... we already know the man - he isn't an unknown mysterious being from some hell-like dimention - suffering from over exposure in the films ...

he's like Dirty Harry .. he IS the film.

[rasobasi420]

Pinhead is neither hero nor villain. He simply is. His role is to simply facilitate an individual's deepest desire, which is to experience the pain that is hell. The villain of Hellraisers 1 and 2 are the ones who either attempt to escape the nature of hell by any means necessary, or to embrace hell, again, by any means necessary.

And I might disagree with the rest of the franchise sucking. I actually enjoyed parts 5 and 6. They went back to the original concept of the Cenobites existing outside of the reality of he who opens the box. The opener creates his own hell and suffers the pain of it alone. Deader was pretty weak, as was Hellworld. The crappy thing about hellworld is that it pulled the F13p5 bullshit where Pinhead wasn't really Pinhead. How lame is that?!

Part 3 was a bit out of character for Pinhead. In that one, he implicitly decided to try to 'take over the world' or some bullshit. The next one was the same, but added the 'In Space' aspect, which was obviously successful for the Leprechaun and Jason... ;)

In summary, Pinhead is neither good nor bad... He just is.

[Vodstok]

I would argue that he is evil, but that he is passivley evil. Freddy is actively evil, he goes looking for trouble; pinhead is content to sit and wait for someone to bring evil upon themselves. However, he isnt an animal, he is a concious being that knows what he is doing is immoral, despite the fact that they technically asked for it. The fact that he is ambivelant about the fact that many of the people didnt know what they were getting into suggests evil; letting a child drink Drano "so that they'll learn better" is an act of malice, so the same goes here.


He also always seems to wind up getting innocent third parties involved and doesnt care about collatoral damage, which is also evil. So, is he the villain, technically, you are correct, he isnt, he merely reacts to the actual villain. But, he is a "bad guy".

[Festered]

although i dont think they're all that good - it's a different animal than a horror franchise... we already know the man - he isn't an unknown mysterious being from some hell-like dimention - suffering from over exposure in the films ...

he's like Dirty Harry .. he IS the film.

And then Rambo and Rocky came along to blow that theory out of the water.

[urgeok2]

And then Rambo and Rocky came along to blow that theory out of the water.


what theory ?

[Festered]

what theory ?



he's like Dirty Harry .. he IS the film.

That theory....you do read what you post, I assume?

[urgeok2]

That theory....you do read what you post, I assume?


it wasn't a theory - it was a specific observation about the 2 franchises i mentioned.

i think you forgot to use your rolling eyes smiley ...

[Festered]

i think you forgot to use your rolling eyes smiley ...

"Well, pardon me all over the place." Robert Mitchum in Cape Fear (1991)

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Azazel005]

Vodstok and Rasobas made some good observations.

I did very much enjoy Hellraiser one and two. Though I can't see Pinhead possessing any herioc qualites. As was said, he is more a "force" he acts upons the actions of others to fulfill his role. The question of his morality is the trick though, I never suspected that he would feel morally conflicted about any of his actions, irrespective of how the viewer may feel. He's not a fool though, and sometimes particular in Hellraiser 2 we tend to "root" for him because he is shows that the bad guys can't get away with there villiany, but he does so without any sense of moral compunction, he does what he is required to do and had cool evil looking powers.

[n3wt]

I think pinhead is awesome im a fan of the trilogy but not really the rest in the series. I just wish he was in the films more doing more torture!

[Papillon Noir]

Ah, the Hellraiser movies, probably my favorite series. I never really thought of the question of Pinhead being a villain or a dark hero, but there is something to that.

In the first 2 Hellraiser films, his character is different than the later films, in which he is a true villain. In the first Hellraiser, he's really just a bounty hunter looking for Frank and doing his job. In the second Hellraiser we find out that Pinhead and the rest of the Cenobites were once human and opened the box just like everyone else and became bound to it. Pinhead even tries to fight against Dr. Channard who is kind of a madman (even for a Cenobite). I think in both these films, but definitely in the second one Pinhead has some humanity and I think could be a dark hero

Btw, Hellraiser 3 sucked! Bloodline was okay, but I thought that 5-8 were really pretty good and rather enjoyed them. I think they really expanded the Hellraiser universe.

[jenna26]

I would argue that he is evil, but that he is passivley evil. Freddy is actively evil, he goes looking for trouble; pinhead is content to sit and wait for someone to bring evil upon themselves. However, he isnt an animal, he is a concious being that knows what he is doing is immoral, despite the fact that they technically asked for it. The fact that he is ambivelant about the fact that many of the people didnt know what they were getting into suggests evil; letting a child drink Drano "so that they'll learn better" is an act of malice, so the same goes here.


He also always seems to wind up getting innocent third parties involved and doesnt care about collatoral damage, which is also evil. So, is he the villain, technically, you are correct, he isnt, he merely reacts to the actual villain. But, he is a "bad guy".

Very good post, this is how I view Pinhead. I absolutely see him as a bad guy, or a villain, even if his actions are directed towards those that, like you say, "ask" for it.





Btw, Hellraiser 3 sucked! Bloodline was okay, but I thought that 5-8 were really pretty good and rather enjoyed them. I think they really expanded the Hellraiser universe.

I love the Hellraiser films (yes, a couple of them are among my guilty pleasures ;) ), I actually enjoy them all to a degree. I thought Bloodline was the worst of them though.

[Jason Grimm]

Yeah, I kind of learn towards a neutral evil for that guy...He'll actually seem impressed if you can one-up him...

[siorai]

I really only think of the first two movies as being "real" Hellraiser movies. The rest just don't fit with the mythology and lore put down by the first two so I try my damn-dest to disregard and forget about them entirely.

Given Pinhead's actions in the first two and especially information in the Books of the Damned comics, Pinhead is neither good or evil. He just is. He is a "soldier" of sorts for Leviathan. He is also an embodiment of Order (the Nightbreed were Chaos.) To the utmost degree that when a young Cenobite suggested they attack the Nightbreed earlier than planned because they were in a weakened state, Pinhead pulled out a huge tome and said that they couldn't attack now because it was written that they would attack in 2 years, 4 months, 17 days, 3 hours, and 52 seconds (or some equally exact time, I can't remember the exact time from the comic.) Which is also why I loathe the third movie. With his human side removed, Pinhead turns completely chaotic and kills randomly. It just doesn't fit.

So while Pinhead is most obviously not "good," nor is he even a "dark hero" (Kristy did basically con the Cenobites into helping her for her own ends) I wouldn't necessarily call him "evil" either. Especially from his own perspective, which is really all that matters when it comes to discussions about good versus evil. He just simply is doing what he must do.

[Azazel005]

"Especially from his own perspective" I think is an important issue.

The fact the he is not in his own right morally conflicted about the matters hinders calling him evil. There is no malice, or self satisfaction he acts under a sense of "duty" completely alienated from morality.