Touchy Subject

[horrorobsessed]

i am doing a persuasive speech for my Speech class on Abortion. i have the opinions of my family, but i was kind of wondering if you guys (and girls) wouldn't mind telling me what you think. pro life, pro choice, on the fence, somewhere in between.

for my speech i'm hoping to give a different perspective on it. everyone always just does pro or con. i guess i'm just indecisive, but i'm arguing that it may not be too moral, but sometimes it's necessary.

do i even have an arguement?

opinions will be greatly appreciated. THANKS!

[Posher778]

i am doing a persuasive speech for my Speech class on Abortion. i have the opinions of my family, but i was kind of wondering if you guys (and girls) wouldn't mind telling me what you think. pro life, pro choice, on the fence, somewhere in between.

for my speech i'm hoping to give a different perspective on it. everyone always just does pro or con. i guess i'm just indecisive, but i'm arguing that it may not be too moral, but sometimes it's necessary.

do i even have an arguement?

opinions will be greatly appreciated. THANKS!

http://www.has.vcu.edu/eng/webtext/hills/hills.htm

You could use so many references from Hills Like White Elephants, it's all about abortion. Just take a minute to read it.

[horrorobsessed]

http://www.has.vcu.edu/eng/webtext/hills/hills.htm

You could use so many references from Hills Like White Elephants, it's all about abortion. Just take a minute to read it.


thanks, from that excerpt it sounds like a really good book. or at least one that will help me with my speech.

[Posher778]

thanks, from that excerpt it sounds like a really good book. or at least one that will help me with my speech.

Book? No. That's the entire story.

[horrorobsessed]

oh. my bad. serious brain fart right there.

well, it was a really good story. i can totally use that.

[Posher778]

oh. my bad. serious brain fart right there.

well, it was a really good story. i can totally use that.

Yeah, if you need any help about anything in it just ask. Week after week of reviewing it... gah

[Freak]

I'm pro choice.If a person chooses to have an abortion thats there choice.Let them do what they want. I however would never let my girlfriend or wife have one but that's just how I feel.

[monalisa]

I'm pro-choice. If you're against abortion, then don't have one. Pretty simple.

[Disease]

Things like this are realy up to the indivdual at the time, only they know what is right for them....

Then sometimes they don't though...

[Posher778]

Yes, and i'm sure that every pro abortionist's unborn child would agree that it's just fine if you want to kill it. It's murder.

[Disease]

I'm sure there are plenty of people in the world that wish they had been aborted, but I've never met one....

[monalisa]

Yes, and i'm sure that every pro abortionist's unborn child would agree that it's just fine if you want to kill it. It's murder.

So what do you call miscarriages, suicide?

[Disease]

So what do you call miscarriages, suicide?

That's actually kind of funny...

[Posher778]

I don't think that's exactly the same book as abortion...

[monalisa]

I don't think that's exactly the same book as abortion...

Actually, it is if you think about it. If a person is murdered, they have an investigation and a funeral. If a person commits suicide, they at least usually have a funeral. If someone has a miscarriage or an abortion, is there a funeral? Except for some rare cases, no. Why? Because it is not a viable human unless it can survive on it's own outside of the womb. Therefore it's not murder or suicide. Just my opinion.

[monalisa]

BTW, for whatever it's worth, I don't think I would personally ever have an abortion, but it's not my place to tell someone else what to do with their body. That's why I say, if you're against abortion, then don't have one.

[Disease]

Say it again sam.

[monalisa]

Say it again sam.

Thppppt! :p

[Despare]

I'm mostly pro-life (there are situations that may call for an abortion). There are so many options now if you can't take care of it. As far as the "if you're against abortion don't have one" argument goes; if you don't want to have a child then don't get pregnant.

[monalisa]

I'm mostly pro-life (there are situations that may call for an abortion). There are so many options now if you can't take care of it. As far as the "if you're against abortion don't have one" argument goes; if you don't want to have a child then don't get pregnant.

Easier said than done. There are cases when one takes all the precautions and gets pregnant anyway. The pill isn't 100% accurate and neither is any other method except not having sex at all. And then there's the cases of rape where the woman doesn't really have any choices.

[Despare]

Easier said than done. There are cases when one takes all the precautions and gets pregnant anyway. The pill isn't 100% accurate and neither is any other method except not having sex at all. And then there's the cases of rape where the woman doesn't really have any choices.

I don't want to get into a big debate as I've discussed this issue thousands of other times but look at my post again. I said there were certain situations and one of those is rape. As far as being easier said than done, if you can't handle HAVING the baby (I'm not saying raising it now), then DO NOT HAVE SEX. That's "100% accurate".

[monalisa]

I don't want to get into a big debate as I've discussed this issue thousands of other times but look at my post again. I said there were certain situations and one of those is rape. As far as being easier said than done, if you can't handle HAVING the baby (I'm not saying raising it now), then DO NOT HAVE SEX. That's "100% accurate".

Guys should do the same thing then. DON'T HAVE SEX. Yah, like THAT'S gonna happen. I don't mean to sound sexist, so please don't take it that way. But it's very easy for guys to say all this stuff, cuz they never have to worry about ever going through the physical experience of pregnancy and childbirth. Granted a worthwhile partner will help the best he can, but it's the woman the has to go through all the physical crap of getting sick and her body getting all stretched out and all the hormnal changes that most guys refer to as "she's being such a bitch". There is no way for a man to really know what it is actually like to go through all that. And then there is childbirth. Imagine trying to pass a football out your butt. And that's only part of it.

[Despare]

Guys should do the same thing then. DON'T HAVE SEX. Yah, like THAT'S gonna happen. I don't mean to sound sexist, so please don't take it that way. But it's very easy for guys to say all this stuff, cuz they never have to worry about ever going through the physical experience of pregnancy and childbirth. Granted a worthwhile partner will help the best he can, but it's the woman the has to go through all the physical crap of getting sick and her body getting all stretched out and all the hormnal changes that most guys refer to as "she's being such a bitch". There is no way for a man to really know what it is actually like to go through all that.

Nope, but plenty of woman manage to not get knocked up until they're ready and plenty more deal with an accidental pregnancy by taking responsibility for their actions. It's possible to abstain or use multiple precautions, people do it all the time.

[Disease]

I gues there are heaps of couples ready to adopt kids anyway.....

[monalisa]

Nope, but plenty of woman manage to not get knocked up until they're ready and plenty more deal with an accidental pregnancy by taking responsibility for their actions. It's possible to abstain or use multiple precautions, people do it all the time.

I added to my post, if you care.

Again, all of this is eay to say when you're not the one getting pregnant. But we've gotten off the subject of pro-choice or pro-life. Go ahead and be pro-life, personally that would be my choice too. But neither you or I have the right to decide for someone else what they should do. That's where the choice part comes in.

[Despare]

I added to my post, if you care.

Again, all of this is eay to say when you're not the one getting pregnant. But we've gotten off the subject of pro-choice or pro-life. Go ahead and be pro-life, personally that would be my choice too. But neither you or I have the right to decide for someone else what they should do. That's where the choice part comes in.

How far do you go on the abortion though? Who sticks up for the baby? Like the young mother that stabbed her newly born child and is now using as her defense "I was going to have an abortion anyway". Like I said I don't want to discuss this (again) for ages. To each their own, you know my stance.

If playing football without lots of protection could lead to a football coming out of my ass I'd stay the hell away from football.

[monalisa]

How far do you go on the abortion though? Who sticks up for the baby? Like the young mother that stabbed her newly born child and is now using as her defense "I was going to have an abortion anyway". Like I said I don't want to discuss this (again) for ages. To each their own, you know my stance.

If playing football without lots of protection could lead to a football coming out of my ass I'd stay the hell away from football.

That was a healthy child already born. That was clearly a case of murder and not at all the same as an abortion. Was getting stabbed 135 times better for that poor child than being terminated before it even knew it existed? I think not.

Anyway you know my stance and I know yours. I think it's time to agree to disagree.

So, horrorobsessed, has any of this helped for your speech class? ;) :)

[bloodrayne]

I said there were certain situations and one of those is rape. I've discussed this here a million times, too...Everyone knows my position on this...But, I just wanted to remind everyone of something...

It's almost IMPOSSIBLE to become pregnant as a result of rape...There are many reasons for this (it's a biological thing), but it's a fact

At any rate...Less than 1% OF 1% of all abortions are performed because of "rape"

I also want to add that the word "rape" is even subjective in these cases...For some girls, it breaks down like this:

If the guy's good looking, it's sex
If the guy's ugly, it's rape

I know that sounds disgusting...But it's true in SO many cases

Chicks who get drunk and have sex with someone they normally wouldn't have, usually end up yelling "rape", too

There are also MANY married women who get 'caught' and claim they were raped...It happens more than you might think

Welcome to the real world...It isn't all so 'cut and dried'


Have the baby...Give it up for adoption...Then you don't have to take care of it...You don't want to go through the process of adoption (which is simply signing a paper in the hospital when the baby's born)?, then leave the baby at a hospital, fire department or other place that takes them within 72 hours of birth (check your city to find out where these locations are), with no questions asked, you don't even have to give them your name...So, what could be the problem with THAT?...Oh, you don't want STRETCH MARKS?...Selfish, SHALLOW bitch, you shouldn't have gotten pregnant

[bloodrayne]

That was a healthy child already born. That was clearly a case of murder and not at all the same as an abortion. Was getting stabbed 135 times better for that poor child than being terminated before it even knew it existed? I think not.

Better for?...No...Exactly the same...With the exact same result

Do you think that as soon as a baby pops out it's any more "aware of its existence" than it was BEFORE it came out?...I think not

[Despare]

I've discussed this here a million times, too...Everyone knows my position on this...But, I just wanted to remind everyone of something...

It's almost IMPOSSIBLE to become pregnant as a result of rape...There are many reasons for this (it's a biological thing), but it's a fact

At any rate...Less than 1% OF 1% of all abortions are performed because of "rape"


I was thinking more, girl gets drunk and passes out while drunk guy has his way with her and she doesn't wake up. Your percentages pretty much coincide with the frequency I think that could actually happen.

[monalisa]

Better for?...No...Exactly the same...With the exact same result

Do you think that as soon as a baby pops out it's anymore "aware of its existance" than it was BEFORE it came out?...I think not

I totally disagree. Yes, it is very much aware of it's existance once it's born. How could you look into the face of your newborn child and NOT realize that?

And as for your comment of "Oh, you don't want STRETCH MARKS?...Selfish, SHALLOW bitch, you shouldn't have gotten pregnant" again I say there are cases, MANY MANY cases when all precautions are taken and the woman still gets pregnant. I have always respected your opinion Rayne, but I can't believe how ignorant you are being this time.

[Despare]

I totally disagree. Yes, it is very much aware of it's existance once it's born. How could you look into the face of your newborn child and NOT realize that?

And as for your comment of "Oh, you don't want STRETCH MARKS?...Selfish, SHALLOW bitch, you shouldn't have gotten pregnant" again I say there are cases, MANY MANY cases when all precautions are taken and the woman still gets pregnant. I have always respected your opinion Rayne, but I can't believe how ignorant you are being this time.

You won't find "MANY MANY" cases of accidental pregnancy with couples where both the man and woman use the proper precautions. Hell, if you don't want a kid use the pill, condoms, a diaphragm, spermicide, and the morning after pill.

[monalisa]

You won't find "MANY MANY" cases of accidental pregnancy with couples where both the man and woman use the proper precautions. Hell, if you don't want a kid use the pill, condoms, a diaphragm, spermicide, and the morning after pill.

Oh for God's sake, wake up. Yes there are MANY MANY cases where the couple takes the proper precautions and the woman still gets pregnant. And there are also MANY MANY cases where, maybe they aren't that strong of a couple and they still take the precautions, woman gets pregnant, guy takes off thinking "not MY problem" and the woman is stuck wondering what to do. That same guy can go and spout off about how pro-life he is and doesn't even give a crap about the girl he got pregnant. And no, it's not always easy to track those morons down. But he is still just as responsible for that pregnancy as she is, he just doesn't have to deal with it.

[bloodrayne]

I totally disagree. .That's your right

Yes, it is very much aware of it's existance once it's born. How could you look into the face of your newborn child and NOT realize that?Okay, I should have worded that one differently..."Do you think it's any LESS 'aware of its existence' BEFORE it pops out?"...It's moving, playing with its toes, crying, laughing, being hungry, sleeping, hiccupping, holding its hands and playing with its fingers...

And as for your comment of "Oh, you don't want STRETCH MARKS?...Selfish, SHALLOW bitch, you shouldn't have gotten pregnant" again I say there are cases, MANY MANY cases when all precautions are taken and the woman still gets pregnant. Okay, but that's not the baby's fault...It shouldn't be executed for it...Someone has an 'accident'...Give it up for adoption, or drop it off at a safe place...Is THAT difficult?

And it's my opinion that if someone's ONLY reason for having an abortion is to avoid stretch marks, that person IS a 'selfish, SHALLOW bitch'...That's the way I feel, and I stand by it


I have always respected your opinion Rayne, but I can't believe how ignorant you are being this time.Ignorance is a lack of knowledge about a subject...I happen to have a HELL of a lot of knowledge pertaining to this subject...Therefore, by definition, it's impossible for me to be "ignorant" about it...So, you may wanna reword yours ;)

Having a different opinion does not make a person ignorant...Although MOST of what I stated was FACT

I had a little surprise myself...He's watching Aqua Teen Hunger Force at the moment...I certainly wasn't planning on having anymore kids, especially at my age...But...I never once considered 'getting rid' of him

[bloodrayne]

But he is still just as responsible for that pregnancy as she is, he just doesn't have to deal with it.And neither does the woman, if she gives it up for adoption

[monalisa]

That's your right

Okay, I should have worded that one differently..."Do you think it's any LESS 'aware of its existence' BEFORE it pops out?"...It's moving, playing with its toes, crying, laughing, being hungry, sleeping, hiccupping, holding its hands and playing with its fingers...

It ain't doing all that when it's a 4 week old embryo.

Okay, but that's not the baby's fault...It shouldn't be executed for it...Someone has an 'accident'...Give it up for adoption, or drop it off at a safe place...Is THAT difficult?

And it's my opinion that if someone's ONLY reason for having an abortion is to avoid stretch marks, that person IS a 'selfish, SHALLOW bitch'...That's the way I feel, and I stand by it

There is a lot more to pregnancy and childbirth than stretchmarks. Come on Rayne surely you know that.


Ignorance is a lack of knowledge about a subject...I happen to have a HELL of a lot of knowledge pertaining to this subject...Therefore, by definition, it's impossible for me to be "ignorant" about it...So, you may wanna reword yours ;)

I know what ignorant means and that why I chose that word. Perhaps I should have said "I can't believe how ignorant you seem", because, I thought you of all people would never say something like if you don't want a baby then don't get pregnant. That is just not that bright of a statement.
.
.
.
I had a little surprise myself...He's watching Aqua Teen Hunger Force at the moment...I certainly wasn't planning on having anymore kids, especially at my age...But...I never once considered 'getting rid' of him

I'm very happy for you and Ash and Dustin. But that still does not give you the right to decide for another person what to do.

[monalisa]

And neither does the woman, if she gives it up for adoption

Yah, approx NINE MONTHS later! Geez, the guy doesn't have to go through ANYTHING physical unless you find him and beat the hell out of him for being such an asshole.

[Despare]

Yah, approx NINE MONTHS later! Geez, the guy doesn't have to go through ANYTHING physical unless you find him and beat the hell out of him for being such an asshole.

The first step would be to blame yourself for sleeping with the guy and stop blaming the guy. It's not his fault that he doesn't have to go through childbirth.

[bloodrayne]

It ain't doing all that when it's a 4 week old embryo.It's still human..It's not a fish

Here's another fact...MOST people don't even KNOW they're pregnant until 6-8 weeks (after they miss that period)...Unless they KNOW they had sex without precaution and are fervently testing every week after the fact

There is a lot more to pregnancy and childbirth than stretchmarks. Come on Rayne surely you of all people know that.Like vomiting?...Some people don't vomit at all...And people will risk vomiting to get drunk

Swollen ankles?...It goes away, it isn't THAT big a discomfort

The pain of childbirth?...Yeah, that's a doozy...But, it only lasts a little while...And with an epidural, you don't even have to deal with it at all

Nothing associated with being pregnant is bad enough to merit taking the life of a baby to avoid it

And no matter what happens...It's still not the baby's fault...Why is the life of the mother so much more important than the life of the baby?...The mother was a baby once, too...When did her status change to being a more important person, or a person who deserves life more?


I'm very happy for you and Ash and Dustin. But that still does not give you the right to decide for another person what to do.Thanks, he's a doll...But, DAMN is he a stubborn little thing :)

I wasn't deciding anything for anyone...I stated a few facts, asked a couple of questions, and stated my opinion

Just as you have stated yours...And I didn't chide you for it

[monalisa]

The first step would be to blame yourself for sleeping with the guy and stop blaming the guy. It's not his fault that he doesn't have to go through childbirth.

Blame yourself for sleeping with the guy??? OMG. THE GUY IS JUST AS RESPONSIBLE!!!!!! What are you, a fucking caveman? (No, I don't work for Geico.)

[monalisa]

It's still human..It's not a fish

Here's another fact...MOST people don't even KNOW they're pregnant until 6-8 weeks (after they miss that period)...Unless they KNOW they had sex without precaution and are fervently testing every week after the fact

Like vomiting?...Some people don't vomit at all...And people will risk vomiting to get drunk

Swollen ankles?...It goes away, it isn't THAT big a discomfort

The pain of chilbirth?...Yeah, that's a doozy...But, it only lasts a little while

Nothing associated with being pregnant is bad enough to merit taking the life of a baby to avoid it

And no matter what happens...It's still not the baby's fault...Why is the life of the mother so much more important than the life of the baby?...The mother was a baby once, too...When did her status change to being a more important person, or a person who deserves life more?


Thanks, he's a doll...But, DAMN is he a stubborn little thing :)

I wasn't deciding anything for anyone...I stated a few facts, asked a couple of questions, and stated my opinion

Just as you have stated yours...And I didn't chide you for it

No offense meant towards anyone. I love a good debate (NOT a fight ;) ). And I do not view this as a fight, just a healthy debate between intelligent, opionated people.

Granted, it's not the baby's fault. I guess it depends on your personal opinion on when life begins. I will say once more, my personal choice would be life, but I strongly believe that I don't have the right to decide that for another person. Therefore, I am pro-choice. BTW pro-choice does NOT mean pro-abortion, just for the record.

[Disease]

This might be the most aptly named thread ever!

[monalisa]

This might be the most aptly named thread ever!

I sure hope it helps horrorobsessed with her speech. ;)

[bloodrayne]

This might be the most aptly named thread ever!
Oh, abortion is DEFINITELY a "Touchy Subject"...Just like politics, religion, and other personal topics...We already know that going in

But, there's no reason why people can't discuss it without going nuts :)

[monalisa]

Oh, abortion is DEFINITELY a "Touchy Subject"...Just like politics, religion, and other personal topics...We already know that going in

But, there's no reason why people can't discuss it without going nuts :)

What if you're nuts to begin with? j/k :p

[Dante'sInferno]

The worst thing you can do is kill someone,Whats even worse is to kill your own baby,that is a part of you at the time.

[monalisa]

The worst thing you can do is kill someone,Whats even worse is to kill your own baby,that is a part of you at the time.

Yah, jump in as soon as you grow a uterus and can get pregnant yourself.

[Dante'sInferno]

Haha,So only Women should respond to this?

[bloodrayne]

OH...I just wanted to add something...It really IS possible to 'not have sex'...I was celebate for 7 years...I lived...I mean, it was a little scary there for a while...There were times when I wasn't sure I was gonna pull through...But, I made it...Shoo! :D

[Disease]

I'm not touching this anymore.....

[bloodrayne]

Yah, jump in as soon as you grow a uterus and can get pregnant yourself.
Hmm...I dunno...I think a man has a right to decide whether HIS baby should live or die, too...That's the part that makes the least sense in all of this...It's just as much HIS baby, as it is hers

I guess I just can't possibly conceive of a woman's body being more important than an entire LIFE...That part always confuses me

[bloodrayne]

I'm not touching this anymore.....Aww...Come on...Touch it...You know you wanna

:D :p

[Dante'sInferno]

I'm not touching this anymore.....

I agree.Thers no point.Its in there hands,if they want to kill unborn children,its on them.

[bloodrayne]

I agree.Thers no point.Its in there hands,if they want to kill unborn children,its on them.Aww...Don't think like that...We're not here to change the world, we're only discussing something...There's ALWAYS a 'point' to speaking your mind and being heard...Everyone has a right to their opinion :)

[monalisa]

OH...I just wanted to add something...It really IS possible to 'not have sex'...I was celebate for 7 years...I lived...I mean, it was a little scary there for a while...There were times when I wasn't sure I was gonna pull through...But, I made it...Shoo! :D

Good for you, but I can't imagine guys going that long, unless they are virgins. Once a guy does it, he becomes a life support system for his penis. OK, not ALL guys, but most. For most of the guys that say "if you don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex", they're out there doing it and many times it's unprotected. Girls can be guilty of this too, but it's way easier for a guy cuz there is no risk of him being the one that gets pregnant. It's kind of a double standard, just like the old thing of if a guy has a lot of sex partners, he's a stud (high fivin' all his buddies). If a girl does it, she's a whore.

[monalisa]

Yah, jump in as soon as you grow a uterus and can get pregnant yourself.

I was just ribbin' ya Dante. :p Nice to see ya back.

[bloodrayne]

It's kind of a double standard, just like the old thing of if a guy has a lot of sex partners, he's a stud (high fivin' all his buddies). If a girl does it, she's a whore.Oh, I have TONS of sex now...But, only with one person, and I don't get paid...So, I guess technically I'm not a whore...But, Dustin has just as much sex as I do...and he IS a stud...haha

BTW...I can have all the sex I want now, cuz I made DAMN sure I won't get pregnant again...And it IS 100% effective ;)

[monalisa]

Oh, I have TONS of sex now...But, only with one person, and I don't get paid...So, I guess technically I'm not a whore...But, Dustin has just as much sex as I do...and he IS a stud...haha

BTW...I can have all the sex I want now, cuz I made DAMN sure I won't get pregnant again...And it IS 100% effective ;)

Not lots of sex, lots of sex partners. OK, I should have said slut, not whore. ;)

[Dante'sInferno]

Good for you, but I can't imagine guys going that long, unless they are virgins. Once a guy does it, he becomes a life support system for his penis. OK, not ALL guys, but most. For most of the guys that say "if you don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex", they're out there doing it and many times it's unprotected. Girls can be guilty of this too, but it's way easier for a guy cuz there is no risk of him being the one that gets pregnant. It's kind of a double standard, just like the old thing of if a guy has a lot of sex partners, he's a stud (high fivin' all his buddies). If a girl does it, she's a whore.Males are simple-minded creatures most of the time,led by their penis,but there are a few good men out there.The ones who deserve a choice.Instead of some asshole that gets 30 women pregnant then runs off,like a one night stand,and their pressured into killing their baby,because they feel all alone.But,its a part of you.If you do have sex and dont want to get....wait...ever find it weird that some women CANT get pregnant when they want a baby VERY badly,and yet,some women get pregnant on first intercourse.But please wear a condom,if you do not want to get pregnant.Should they stop abortion?Its up to the couple/woman.

[Dante'sInferno]

I was just ribbin' ya Dante. :p Nice to see ya back.

Oh im sorry.I thought you were serious.


You played me!Hah and thanks.:D

[Dante'sInferno]

Oh, I have TONS of sex now...But, only with one person, and I don't get paid...So, I guess technically I'm not a whore...But, Dustin has just as much sex as I do...and he IS a stud...haha

BTW...I can have all the sex I want now, cuz I made DAMN sure I won't get pregnant again...And it IS 100% effective ;)

Once i do the giggity i will probly go all out with chains,whips,bondage,handcuffes.You know,fun stuff like that.




Erm...Go you Rayne!Dear god,i need a girl friend.Im so bored now,its unbeliaveble.

[bloodrayne]

Dear god,i need a girl friend.Im so bored now,its unbeliaveble.Aww, you poor, sweet thing...Girlfriends shouldn't be a 'cure for boredom'...lol...Play a cool game, that eats up a lot of time (I wish the baby would let me finish Silent Hill 3, I'm gonna get back to it in a few minutes)...Or learn something new about an interesting subject...Watch a bunch of horror movies (with friends, that's even more fun), read some novels, draw, paint, create, make something...There's LOTS to do, Baby :)

[monalisa]

Oh im sorry.I thought you were serious.


You played me!Hah and thanks.:D

Yah, sarcasm doesn't always work when it's typed and not spoken. ;) :p

[Dante'sInferno]

Aww, you poor, sweet thing...Girlfriends shouldn't be a 'cure for boredom'...lol...Play a cool game, that eats up a lot of time (I wish the baby would let me finish Silent Hill 3, I'm gonna get back to it in a few minutes)...Or learn something new about an interesting subject...Watch a bunch of horror movies (with friends, that's even more fun), read some novels, draw, paint, create, make something...There's LOTS to do, Baby :)I know i want the bond though,you know?Well of course you do!Ive only felt that once,and i would give anything to feel that again.Oh yeah Silent hill 3 is pretty cool.Better then i expected,stear clear of 4 though.

[Dante'sInferno]

Yah, sarcasm doesn't always work when it's typed and not spoken. ;) :pYeah i agree.How have you been,and have you watched Beside you in time,or have you been busy?I went to go see spiderman 3 today,going again tomorrow.You should go see it.

[monalisa]

Once i do the giggity i will probly go all out with chains,whips,bondage,handcuffes.You know,fun stuff like that.



Um, ah, bbllaaahbibiddyblah *jaw hits floor*, you little devil you. Oh yah, DON'T GET HER PREGNANT (trying to stay on topic). :D

[bloodrayne]

I know i want the bond though,you know?Well of course you do!Ive only felt that once,and i would give anything to feel that again..I know, Sweetie...But, you've got plenty of time for that...You only get to be young for a little while, then you've got 50-60 years to do all the rest

Oh yeah Silent hill 3 is pretty cool.Better then i expected,stear clear of 4 though.NOOOOO...It's 4 that I'm so looking forward to...The screenshots are freaking AMAZING

[Dante'sInferno]

I wont!:D I will wear protection.But that whole darker thing would interesting,whips,chains.....wow.I need to stop that.I would be the good kind of father anyway.I would bust my ass,get a job and provide for my kid,wife,family.And i would never hurt them.And theyll be listening to NIN at age one!Shit yeah!Oh and ill get them hooked on horror movies,just like i was.As a baby.

[Dante'sInferno]

I know, Sweetie...But, you've got plenty of time for that...You only get to be young for a little while, then you've got 50-60 years to do all the rest

NOOOOO...It's 4 that I'm so looking forward to...The screenshots are freaking AMAZINGHehe,if might fall off by that time,if i never use it.lol

Oh and i know!They do look amazing,its a fun game,i was just a little dissapointed.But it was still good.The only reason i dont like it,was because i got stuck and kept dying with no health.Fucking cheating bosses!:mad:

[monalisa]

Yeah i agree.How have you been,and have you watched Beside you in time,or have you been busy?I went to go see spiderman 3 today,going again tomorrow.You should go see it.

My portable DVD player I got had a bad pixel so I had to send it back. Waiting for the replacement, THEN I will watch Beside You In Time. :) I'll probably wait til Spidy 3 comes out on DVD, as always. Solo-puppy is doing good too. Soooooo cuuute! Still too chewy though.

[bloodrayne]

I wont!:D I will wear protection.But that whole darker thing would interesting,whips,chains.....wow.I need to stop that.I would be the good kind of father anyway.I would bust my ass,get a job and provide for my kid,wife,family.And i would never hurt them.And theyll be listening to NIN at age one!Shit yeah!Oh and ill get them hooked on horror movies,just like i was.As a baby.HaHa...Sounds JUST like our family...Except substitute metal (He's especially fond of Norwegian metal, Satyricon makes him very happy...He's really into the black/death stuff...I think he just loves the hyper speed and the growling) instead of NIN for our 1 year-old :)

[Dante'sInferno]

My portable DVD player I got had a bad pixel so I had to send it back. Waiting for the replacement, THEN I will watch Beside You In Time. :) I'll probably wait til Spidy 3 comes out on DVD, as always. Solo-puppy is doing good too. Soooooo cuuute! Still too chewy though.Yeah,its real good,and beside you in time will be awsome.Closure is....like wow though.But its out of print.Yeah and my cat is still a crackhead,he hates gracie even more now.Damn my siamese is mean.

[Disease]

yeah, or we will have to go over all this abortion shit again!

[Dante'sInferno]

HaHa...Sounds JUST like our family...Except substitute metal (He's especially fond of Norwegian metal, Satyricon makes him very happy...He's really into the black/death stuff...I think he just loves the hyper speed and the growling) instead of NIN for our 1 year-old :)I like that too,ill rotate Slayer and Lamb of God for him,and then put on some Sabbath.I enjoy underground german heavy metal speed records.



Whooooooooooooooo!Oh and um...He head banging yet?:D

[bloodrayne]

The only reason i dont like it,was because i got stuck and kept dying with no health.Fucking cheating bosses!:mad:
UGH...That's gonna suck...I HATE that...That's why I'm still stuck on Resident Evil: Code Veronica :mad:

[Dante'sInferno]

Hah!I never even fought alexia on that!Fucking bandersnatchers!

[bloodrayne]

Whooooooooooooooo!Oh and um...He head banging yet?:DOh HELL yes...To ANYTHING!...You should see him furiously headbang to 'Are You Sleeping, Brother John?'...It's freakin' hilarious...Someone should TOTALLY metal out some kids' songs...That would be awesome

If I can ever find a way to get him on video, and I can post it somehow, you guys have GOT to see him do that...lol, he damn near bounces out of his carseat, headbanging in the Suburban...OH, and he dances to the sound of the washing machine, and the dishwasher, too...HAHAHA

[Dante'sInferno]

Haha!Heh thats the greatest thing ive ever heard!:D You should get youtube account,and then post it on there.Its easy.

[bloodrayne]

Haha!Heh thats the greatest thing ive ever heard!:D You should get youtube account,and then post it on there.Its easy.Yeah, I actually have a YouTube account, but I have no way to make a video...I got a new digicam, but it's complicated...So, I left it laying around, baby got ahold of it...I'm sure it wouldn't work now even if I DID figure it out...Seri can probably do it sometime, when she isn't working (which isn't often)...Hmmm

Oh well...I'm gonna go play now (Ash FINALLY fell asleep, and Dustin's playing Eternal Darkness...So, I have some time to myself)...Gotta kick a game's ASS :p

Take care, guys :)

[Dante'sInferno]

Yeah, I actually have a YouTube account, but I have no way to make a video...I got a new digicam, but it's complicated...So, I left it laying around, baby got ahold of it...I'm sure it wouldn't work now even if I DID figure it out...Seri can probably do it sometime, when she isn't working (which isn't often)...Hmmm

Oh well...I'm gonna go play now (Ash FINALLY fell asleep, and Dustin's playing Eternal Darkness...So, I have some time to myself)...Gotta kick a game's ASS :p

Take care, guys :)Have a good time,and try not to die!

[ferretchucker]

I think whether abortions are right depends on the circumstances. For instance, I believe a child is over 8 weeks developed it is despicable, but not if the person was raped. I think if the person just doesn't want a baby, it's wrong, unless the baby would be born into a horrible house with an abusize family. It all depends on the individual case.

[bleeding_angelgirl]

I'm in the middle of this, I would never have an abortion and I think girls and women should only use it as a last resort, there are to many options today from financial assistants to adoptions, but I am for it when it comes to rape, I understand how B.R said its almost impossible to get pregnant when raped, but I don’t agree with the comment
If there hot, its sex,
If there ugly, its rape,
My mom was raped by my dad when they were married and he was drunk. I know some people say its not considered rape then, but trust me until your married and in a abusive marriage and your in that situation, then you have no right saying its not possible, he’s your husband. Then there is the girls who are raped by there fathers. What are they suppos to do have the baby? Not only would it be a constant remind of the girls child hood, but the baby would also be at a very high risk of child defects. Then there are the girls who didn’t think ahead and use protection or the protection broke, and I'm especially referring to the 18 or younger girls, now days it’s very common for girls to be having sex at 15 even. Lets say one of these girls had gotten pregnant from there bad choice of having sex so young. I would say to them, keep it, except I have met girls in this situation were if there mother or father found out they would be severely beaten or there parents would force them to have the abortion. If we took away these kinds of girls rights to have abortions I think it would be a mistake. If the person who’s having the baby's safety is in jeopardy or the child’s chance of living a healthy life is slim then the option should be open. I also have to add that maybe if parents were more involved in a positive way in there children’s life then maybe kids wouldn’t be having sex at such a early age now, I think until your 18 you shouldn’t have sex, your to young to deal with the consequence. truthfully I think 20 is better, and I’m not a hipacrit because I was a virgin till I was 20, I wanted to wait till I was mature enough to deal with any consequences. Most of my friends were having se by 15 though. My best friend had sex at 14. I find this disturbing. Personally, it makes me feel girls now days don’t value there self worth. Even though I feel this way about waiting to have sex, I do respect the girls who are young who do keep the baby and try there best to take care of it. There very brave for making the choice. I know if I was ever pregnant at 16 and kept the child I would have been very scared. So any young mothers out there, you have my respect. People make mistakes but its how they deal with there mistakes that is important.

oh and I took the advice on using word processors spell check, thanks who ever told me to try that. I did and it worked great.

[Despare]

Blame yourself for sleeping with the guy??? OMG. THE GUY IS JUST AS RESPONSIBLE!!!!!! What are you, a fucking caveman? (No, I don't work for Geiko.)

Just for the record I don't think the guy shouldn't get any blame but in almost every one of your examples or posts you talk about the guy not having to go through it, the guy leaving the baby, the guy taking off on the woman. I don't know what may have spurred this, past relationships or just a general distaste for the actions of men, but we're not all pigs. I have just as much right to decide what should happen to my baby as the woman does. ESPECIALLY if we're equally "at fault".

[PR3SSUR3]

I don't think an unborn child has any rights whatsoever, and its fate is quite literally in the hands (or womb) of its creator until it is born. As has been said, people can't really go around telling women what to do with what they have growing inside them - who are they to appoint themselves spokespersons for foetuses? ('Foetusii?')

However I think the way things are generally accepted now is about right - there should be a cutoff point for abortion, from when the 'baby' becomes significantly formed enough to be recognised as a human being, and not just a load of expanding cells. Usually this will give the potential mother plenty of time to decide whether it is right to bring it into the world or not.

[stubbornforgey]

Oh boy..what a topic.

1st of all Mona..as to the child being stabbed 135 times rather than being aborted..how do you figure this..
Just think..this living..breathing..tiny little creature,,with a heartbeat and a pulse is subjected to this kind of ordeal.
An adult can't stand being pricked by a needle..how the hell is it compared to a baby having a knife plunged into it multiple times...
As for the child being aborted..same thing..it is vaccumed out of the womb on high suction..however..whether the baby feels anything is just a theory..nobody knows for sure as the abortion will only take place if the fetus is 2.3 weeks old.
(professionally) and it is considered that at that stage..the baby hasn't quite taken any shape or form.
As i said..this is not factual..just theorised.

The arguement about men vs woman is probably one of the lamest i have ever come across..
what the hell has this to do with this topic..?
It all has to do with the woman and her choices.
Is she right for choosing to terminate a pregnancy..?
unless people know her exact frame of mind at the time..then who are we to judge or to pass comment...she is the one who has to live with the choices she makes.
and Rayne : maybe it is impossible to get pregnant after being raped (maybe in theory only)
they say its because of the trauma etc..however
..but not highly unlikely..and i am from the heart talking from experience.
There is always that chance..once the penis penetrates a vagina and once the seed has been ejeculated..that pregnancy is likely to occur.

Personally however: I would not abort in any situation.
To kill something as precious as baby under any circumstances is not an option i would happily follow..whether this child is being diagnoses with some kind of rare disease or not..whether it was conceived through rape or not.
This child is a clone to me and just like me..this fetus has a right to be able to be born and be subjected to thier own experiences.
Birthing is a painful and yet..its probably one of the most beautifulest sensations ever.

[PR3SSUR3]

Birthing is a painful and yet..its probably one of the most beautifulest sensations ever.


I see what you're saying, but this just looks fucking painful to me:-


http://lpig.doereport.com/imagescooked/7177W.jpg


:eek: :D :eek:

[Posher778]

I see what you're saying, but this just looks fucking painful to me:-


http://lpig.doereport.com/imagescooked/7177W.jpg


:eek: :D :eek:

Yeah that's definently site appropriate.

[PR3SSUR3]

So you want to censor natural childbirth - then why repaste the picture?

[Posher778]

Gotta quote it somehow. Nice avatar by the way. Definently appropriate also.

[PR3SSUR3]

Did you really need to quote being the following post, and really have to repaste that disgusting picture as well as the words?

But you like my cartoon tits.

Not sure about your avatar, though.

[Posher778]

Did you really need to quote being the following post, and really have to repaste that disgusting picture as well as the words?

But you like my cartoon tits.

Not sure about your avatar, though.

It says bitch. I don't think that broke any rules. However, nudity IS supposedly against the rules.

[PR3SSUR3]

Who's nude? She's got pants on, and a top hat.

Or do you mean the lady having the baby?

Or is it because the baby's nude?

:confused:

[horrorobsessed]

veering a little off subject aren't we?


anyway, thanks so much for all the material.

i haven't really voiced much on the subject, and since i made the thread i guess it's only appropriate.

like i said before, i don't agree with abortion and it's by no means moral, but sometimes it's necessary. what if the mother's life was in danger? having some experience with this, i would rather save the mother than a mass of cells that doesn't even have a heartbeat yet. also, if a teenage girl is stupid enough to go off and have sex (with or without protection) she should deal with her mistake. however, the teenage body of, say a 12-15 year old girl is in no way mature enough to carry a child for nine months, then give birth. that could cause serious damage to the mother and the baby. why risk it? also, there have also been other cases where an older man will rape a child, and in that very slim chance, she will get pregnant. now if a teenager's body is not equipped enough to carry a child, how will a small child's body be?

on the other hand, if a girl keeps the baby, gives birth to it, and wants to give it up for adoption, how can she? if you carry a child for nine months you a part of it, i know i couldn't give it up. and if you just hand the baby over to a social worker it could end up in foster care. yes, there are good foster families out there, but there are also a lot of bad ones too. i guess i can't base my opinion of the system on my experience though, because that would be slightly biased. and there are statistics of children that go into foster care that get adopted, but with the population rising, a 100,000 or so kids won't be enough some day. and with all the girls have sex (again using an interpretation taken from my high school) there will be a lot of children needing to be adopted.

in short, sometimes abortion is the right answer, but most of the time it's not. i would never abort my child, but if it was a question between my life or its, or even both of us dying, i would probably take that step that is abortion. but i would also have to live with it for the rest of my life and always wonder about the little child that could have been. OH HELL, i'm confusing myself. how am i supposed to pick a side and persuade people about it?!?

[Shadow]

Good discussion.

The way I look at it is from the second the egg is fertilized a new life form is created. From then on it is growing and living, a little miracle. Some woman cant have children and others kill them off before they even have a chance. In my opinion a woman is privileged when she carries a child. I believe I would deal with any circumstances and fight anything to give my child a life. I believe women need more support when pregnant especially young women and those in special circumstances. Woman who have abortions probably feel that it is the only way, they are probably without support and feel alone.

Also I think a child is just as much the mans as it is the woman's.

[PR3SSUR3]

Author Jim Morton on the murder of pregnant Sharon Tate by the Manson 'family', from his book 'Manson Movie Madness'

"Much is made of the horror of killing a pregnant woman but let's face the ugly facts. If Polanski and Tate's child had grown up to be this wonderful kid imbued with his mother's good looks and his father's talent., then yes, the death of this child was, indeed, ghastly, but the odds are against this. Historically, the children of Hollywood couples grow into fucked-up, jaded adults with no more talent than the average lorry driver, and all the social skills of the Manson Family members themselves. Certainly, the killing of this child was a tragedy, but - as cruel as it sounds - maybe, just maybe, Tex Watson did us all a favour."

Pretty harsh viewpoint to say the least, but there is something in there about these 'little miracles' that spawn from us. It's easy to get all doe-eyed about having babies, and without them the human race would cease, but reproduction is natural for living things, and certainly not a privilege.

The world population has multiplied seven-fold since the turn of the 19th century - with people living longer and more babies popping out all over the place, each of them requiring food, fuel and a place to live, what state the planet in a thousand years time?

[Shadow]

Author Jim Morton on the murder of pregnant Sharon Tate by the Manson 'family', from his book 'Manson Movie Madness'

"Much is made of the horror of killing a pregnant woman but let's face the ugly facts. If Polanski and Tate's child had grown up to be this wonderful kid imbued with his mother's good looks and his father's talent., then yes, the death of this child was, indeed, ghastly, but the odds are against this. Historically, the children of Hollywood couples grow into fucked-up, jaded adults with no more talent than the average lorry driver, and all the social skills of the Manson Family members themselves. Certainly, the killing of this child was a tragedy, but - as cruel as it sounds - maybe, just maybe, Tex Watson did us all a favour."

Pretty harsh viewpoint to say the least, but there is something in there about these 'little miracles' that spawn from us. It's easy to get all doe-eyed about having babies, and without them the human race would cease, but reproduction is natural for living things, and certainly not a privilege.

The world population has multiplied seven-fold since the turn of the 19th century - with people living longer and more babies popping out all over the place, each of them requiring food, fuel and a place to live, what state the planet in a thousand years time?

As to how a child grows up is to do with the parents. If the parents are incapable then adoption should be considered. I do not believe it is better to just kill a child rather than give the child a chance.

Over population is a problem. People should consider having children as a privilege and not just pop them out all over the place, here and there, one after the other. Abortion is not necessarily the answer though. Use precautions, be responsible for your actions. It is natural for humans to want to reproduce but we have evolved and should be able to over-come primitive urges.

[ferretchucker]

Well, I don't know why people don't want children. I understand if they're under 21 or something but I can't wait til I have kids. But i suppose like I said earlier, it depnds on the circumstances.

[zwoti]

pro choice

[monalisa]

Oh boy..what a topic.

1st of all Mona..as to the child being stabbed 135 times rather than being aborted..how do you figure this..
Just think..this living..breathing..tiny little creature,,with a heartbeat and a pulse is subjected to this kind of ordeal.
An adult can't stand being pricked by a needle..how the hell is it compared to a baby having a knife plunged into it multiple times...

Despare referred to a case up here in Minnesota that happened recently where a teenage girl gave birth to a healthy baby, but then stabbed it 135 times and threw it in a garbage can. She knew about the law where you can drop a newborn off at any hospital, no questions asked, but she chose to stab the child 135 times instead. Her defense is that she was going to have an abortion anyway. I asked if being stabbed 135 times after it was born was better for the child than being aborted before it even new it existed. THAT's how I figure this.


As for the child being aborted..same thing..it is vaccumed out of the womb on high suction..however..whether the baby feels anything is just a theory..nobody knows for sure as the abortion will only take place if the fetus is 2.3 weeks old.
(professionally) and it is considered that at that stage..the baby hasn't quite taken any shape or form.
As i said..this is not factual..just theorised.

I agree, no one knows if the aborted embryo or fetus feels anything. I guess that depends on at what stage the central nervous system developes. I personally don't know.

The arguement about men vs woman is probably one of the lamest i have ever come across..
what the hell has this to do with this topic..?
It all has to do with the woman and her choices.
Is she right for choosing to terminate a pregnancy..?
unless people know her exact frame of mind at the time..then who are we to judge or to pass comment...she is the one who has to live with the choices she makes.

I'm not sure what you mean about the men vs woman arguement being lame, but never mind that. The key word you used in the rest of that part of your post is CHOICE. I agree, there should be an option for the woman going through it to make that CHOICE.


and Rayne : maybe it is impossible to get pregnant after being raped (maybe in theory only)
they say its because of the trauma etc..however
..but not highly unlikely..and i am from the heart talking from experience.
There is always that chance..once the penis penetrates a vagina and once the seed has been ejeculated..that pregnancy is likely to occur.

Personally however: I would not abort in any situation.
To kill something as precious as baby under any circumstances is not an option i would happily follow..whether this child is being diagnoses with some kind of rare disease or not..whether it was conceived through rape or not.
This child is a clone to me and just like me..this fetus has a right to be able to be born and be subjected to thier own experiences.
Birthing is a painful and yet..its probably one of the most beautifulest sensations ever.

Personally, I would chose to have the baby under most circumstances too. But I do not have the right to make that decision for someone else. I know, all that is a repeat of what I said before, but so what.

[chaibill]

Its so funny that most Pro Lifers are also war suporters. So don't kill unborn babies but kill enemy combatants and civilians, which many are childern, but not our christian babies please don't kill our christian babies. Jesus must be proud.

And abortion is here to stay because with out it there would be an undergound abortion movment.

the solution is to stop unwanted pregnancy. By using condoms and teaching the hip hop crowd that condoms are useful and they won't be less of a man if they use them.

[PR3SSUR3]

Its so funny that most Pro Lifers are also war suporters. So don't kill unborn babies but kill enemy combatants and civilians, which many are childern, but not our christian babies please don't kill our christian babies. Jesus must be proud.

Haven't researched your claims, but very interesting at the moment.

Well, I don't know why people don't want children. I understand if they're under 21 or something but I can't wait til I have kids. But i suppose like I said earlier, it depnds on the circumstances.

So you're saying it's cool to have children over 21?

If I was a woman, that would hurt my fanny and no mistake.

:eek:

[Despare]

The arguement about men vs woman is probably one of the lamest i have ever come across..
what the hell has this to do with this topic..?
It all has to do with the woman and her choices.

Let me make sure I’m getting this right. The man is supposed to be equally responsible for the child and help bear the personal and financial burdens BUT doesn’t have a right to help decide if his child is born or not?

Its so funny that most Pro Lifers are also war suporters. So don't kill unborn babies but kill enemy combatants and civilians, which many are childern, but not our christian babies please don't kill our christian babies. Jesus must be proud.


And all Mexicans are landscapers, all blacks steal, all Jews are cheap, all the Irish are drunks...

[stubbornforgey]

Let me make sure I’m getting this right. The man is supposed to be equally responsible for the child and help bear the personal and financial burdens BUT doesn’t have a right to help decide if his child is born or not?



And all Mexicans are landscapers, all blacks steal, all Jews are cheap, all the Irish are drunks...

I never stated any of what you just mentioned
Men have as much rights as the woman when it comes to deciding such factors.
However..at the end of the day..it is the womans final decision...

[ferretchucker]

well, that's the thing. I don't think the womans final desision is what makes either one happen, i think the woman just has more power to choose than the man considering she's harbouringf the baby. The womans choices and descisions are just as equal in what matters to the mans.

[stubbornforgey]

Its so funny that most Pro Lifers are also war suporters. So don't kill unborn babies but kill enemy combatants and civilians, which many are childern, but not our christian babies please don't kill our christian babies. Jesus must be proud.

And abortion is here to stay because with out it there would be an undergound abortion movment.

the solution is to stop unwanted pregnancy. By using condoms and teaching the hip hop crowd that condoms are useful and they won't be less of a man if they use them.


Stereo typing..
I have you know that if you look at the statistics..many abortions are done by white middle to upper class females who

1: decided that being pregnant and having a child would absolutely ruin thier careers as to thier bodies.

2:forced on by thier parents as it is shameful

3:forced on by thier partners as this is not what this relationship is all about..having children.

4:unaffordale at the time.

5:the fetus has some kind of sickness

the list goes on..but i guarantee you one thing..many hip hoppers are very pro life ...
having been in a debate about this topic before

[chaibill]

you think poor people can afford abortions

not all hip hop people are black i would of wrote black if i was going to be racist. i am saying that being macho is too strong in that part of our culture and condoms are not seen as macho in the hip hop area of our culture

that is why i wrote most. Not all prolifers are war suporters. But if you asked a church full of people if they felt the war we are in right now is important they would say yes and then if you asked the same people if they feel abortion is right they would say "Oh god no."

[paws the great]

Its so funny that most Pro Lifers are also war suporters. So don't kill unborn babies but kill enemy combatants and civilians, which many are childern, but not our christian babies please don't kill our christian babies.
.


It's so funny..... SOME people that are pro-choice are against capital punishment!




So kill unborn babies ,but let people like Ted Bundy live.

[stubbornforgey]

you think poor people can afford abortions

not all hip hop people are black i would of wrote black if i was going to be racist. i am saying that being macho is too strong in that part of our culture and condoms are not seen as macho in the hip hop area of our culture

that is why i wrote most. Not all prolifers are war suporters. But if you asked a church full of people if they felt the war we are in right now is important they would say yes and then if you asked the same people if they feel abortion is right they would say "Oh god no."


where do you see the word racist in my comment??
I said stereo typing..
And no poor people cannot afford this operation..this is why there are many back street abortions happening..leading to much death.
Hip hoppers are probably your most anti-abortion group out there..
and em serious..i had such a debate on this topic with a said group and it was heated..

I don't want to get into a debate about this topic ..
I think its a good one and the opinions so far have been quite interesting to read.

[chaibill]

no that was directed to despare not you

yeah most hip hopers are against any birth control that is true

[Despare]

no that was directed to despare not you


I know it wasn't, I just want to know where you did your research.

[chaibill]

What to find out that alot of "studs" don't like condoms. Just ask people you see everyday.

[Despare]

What to find out that alot of "studs" don't like condoms. Just ask people you see everyday.

Is that how you've decided that all pro-lifers are church-going and that most church going people are pro-war?

[chaibill]

i didn't say all prolifers are church going i was saying church goers are most likely prolife prowar and prosilly

[Despare]

i didn't say all prolifers are church going i was saying church goers are most likely prolife prowar and prosilly

You're as bad as a racist bud. I'm done with this topic, should have been a long time ago.

[chaibill]

i am not trying to be rascist you are just trying so hard not to that you don't see the point. if we educate the young we will see less abortions and unwanted babies, but i think i heard on NPR that they are on the decline in recent years.
besides i am black sucka

[paws the great]

besides i am black sucka



African Americans can't be racist?

[chaibill]

African Americans can't be racist?

no they are plenty racsist in any coloring but i am not rascist just observing what i see.
why is it ok to say "of color" but not "colored"?

[Despare]

Alright chaibill, you've baited me into one more comment. I said you were "AS BAD as a racist". You called all church goers silly, you're pathetic.


Suckaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

[chaibill]

that was a joke just trying to calm you down. my grandma goes to church with her boy friend its not silly see, lots of normal people do it, but any one who says they are prolife but don't mind a few 700,000 dead iraqis and over 3000 american enlisted kids is really silly.

[bloodrayne]

that was a joke just trying to calm you down. my grandma goes to church with her boy friend its not silly see, lots of normal people do it, but any one who says they are prolife but don't mind a few 700,000 dead iraqis and over 3000 american enlisted kids is really silly.
You do realize that if it weren't for war...We wouldn't live in America right now, right?...Unless we were all Native Americans...


But...That's another subject...

[chaibill]

Has war had any honor since WWII?
No, its been political
the point is how can you suport the life choice and the death of people

[paws the great]

[QUOTE=chaibill;599383]Has war had any honor since WWII?
No, its been political
the point is how can you suport the life choice and the death of people[/QUOTE

MEDIA, like The National Public Radio, has made the Iraq war POLITICAL!

[chaibill]

[QUOTE=chaibill;599383]Has war had any honor since WWII?
No, its been political
the point is how can you suport the life choice and the death of people[/QUOTE

MEDIA like The National Public Radio, has made the Iraq war POLITICAL!

you mean national public radio there i no "the" in NPR. you must not listen to it you think "they" made it political. why is the US over there again? And you forgot vietnam and korea npr made those political too. mainstream media not just follows the next guy. it takes the media a long time to catch up to other outlets that don't worry about advertising

[bloodrayne]

how can you suport the life choice and the death of peopleI only support death for those who deserve it

Children who die as a result of war are NOT targetted and killed purposely (unborn babies are)...Killing children is NOT the goal of ANY war, But killing babies IS the goal of EVERY abortion

Children in Iraq are taught at the age of 5 how to use a gun and a rocket launcher...They are trained their entire lives to kill US...

Children in Iraq are killed EVERY DAY by their own governments (and the leading religious clerics) for 'misbehaving'...They have their hands chopped off for stealing a piece of food because they're starving...Teenaged girls have acid thrown in their faces if their hair is peeking out from under their hoods...If a girl is raped, her father is ordered to chop her head off because she is 'impure', he does...and everyone has to come to the local soccer arena to WATCH...ESPECIALLY the children, in order to 'teach them a lesson'

Their way of life is very different from ours...I'm not saying that being different is wrong, I'm just saying that THEIR differences are DANGEROUS to US and their surrounding countries...Their kids don't have a chance as it is...SOOO

In order for us to be SAFE, they have to STOP trying to kill us (and themselves, and each other, and everyone around them) and stop training their children to do that, too...However, they do not WANT to stop, and until they can be either persuaded or FORCED to stop, how will this ever end?

People are being killed in Iraq because they are a VERY serious threat to us, and just about the entire world (the children are killed on accident)...Babies are being killed here, because they're an inconvenience (the babies are killed on purpose)


That being said...I don't get the comparison in the first place, and I could ask the opposite of you..."Why are so many who don't care if our babies are killed by abortion...So concerned that Iraqi babies are killed by war?"....Kinda stupid, huh?...It makes just about as much sense as the reciprocated question


Oh...As for the 'political' thing...War doesn't exactly make people POPULAR...Sometimes, it's a necessary evil...And in case no one informed you...War is dangerous...People die in a war

[chaibill]

"they" implies all. that is just ignorant that is why i wrote "most of" in my posts

there are some people in the mideast that want rights for women and all the freedoms of the west but the area is just so tanted with all the backwards thinking of the majority

just saying that it is silly to say there should be no abortion allowed it will never happen weather you support it or not. like the USA going neutral

BR can we closethis post say it got too political or something

[bloodrayne]

"they" implies all. that is just ignorant that is why i wrote "most of" in my posts

there are some people in the mideast that want rights for women and all the freedoms of the west but the area is just so tanted with all the backwards thinking of the majority

just saying that it is silly to say there should be no abortion allowed it will never happen weather you support it or not. like the USA going neutral

BR can we closethis post say it got too political or somethingSorry...I meant "they" as a majority...Not as "all of them"...So, I suppose you are more intelligent than I am for saying "most of" rather than just implying it...My bad

And...I never said "there should be no abortion", doesn't matter to me if other people want to kill their babies or not (I mean it's sad, it's disgusting, and the babies don't deserve it...But, I'm not going to anyone's house and telling them to stop it), MINE are healthy and happy, and that's what matters to ME...But, if I DID say that, it's my opinion and I have every right to say it...Incidentally, the participants of Roe VS Wade who fought to make abortion legal, are CONSTANTLY saying that there should be no abortion...It is deeply regretted now, and the main figure in that case has attempted suicide many times because she feels guilty about it

As for a topic being 'too political'...Many forums do not allow Politics, Religion, or other 'Touchy Subjects' to be discussed...This isn't one of those forums...We're allowed to speak our minds here, as long as we can do that without attacking each other...I believe we can...

[paws the great]

I only support death for those who deserve it

Children who die as a result of war are NOT targetted and killed purposely (unborn babies are)...Killing children is NOT the goal of ANY war, But killing babies IS the goal of EVERY abortion

Children in Iraq are taught at the age of 5 how to use a gun and a rocket launcher...They are trained their entire lives to kill US...




That being said...I don't get the comparison in the first place, and I could ask the opposite of you..."Why are so many who don't care if our babies are killed by abortion...So concerned that Iraqi babies are killed by war?"....Kinda stupid, huh?...It makes just about as much sense as the reciprocated question


Oh...As for the 'political' thing...War doesn't exactly make people POPULAR...Sometimes, it's a necessary evil...And in case no one informed you...War is dangerous...People die in a war

Al-Qaeda doesn't value life........even little babies!



I wonder who'll celebrate America's defeat in Iraq more...........Al-Qaeda or the pro-choice groups?

[monalisa]

Al-Qaeda doesn't value life........even little babies!



I wonder who'll celebrate America's defeat in Iraq more...........Al-Qaeda or the pro-choice groups?

Al-Qaeda.

I'm pro-choice and I would NOT celebrate America's defeat in Iraq. It is a very dangerous area over there, and it very dangerous for our troops to be there. And I don't think we will actually "win" over there. The people in that area of the world, don't care who they kill, they'll kill Americans, each other and themselves. They think it's honorable. Very difficult to win against people with that mindset. But to just up and pull out, oh and annouce that date of when it's supposed to start happening, would be a very foolish thing to do. It's sadly a bit of a no-win situation, but I think we need to be over there for at least a little while longer to hopefully help to get SOME type of order established for them.

[ferretchucker]

I only support death for those who deserve it

Children who die as a result of war are NOT targetted and killed purposely (unborn babies are)...Killing children is NOT the goal of ANY war, But killing babies IS the goal of EVERY abortion

Children in Iraq are taught at the age of 5 how to use a gun and a rocket launcher...They are trained their entire lives to kill US...


I aswell as about 95% of people in england are completely against the iraq war. I think it is stupid and was pointless. Those "Weapons of mass destruction" wouldn't have even got past their border and it was none of america or englands buisness to go in there and say "You're not allowed them." Considering the amount of missiles, bombs and other weapons we all have. But still, George Bush decided to go in there. I understand that the troops were just doing their jobs and had no choice, but in sending them in, George Bush made America an enemy of Iraq, so what do you expect. These children's country has been invaded and these people are destroying their lives. If America or any other country said to england "You can't have these weapons", invaded us and i was given a gun, i would quite happily kill the invaders and wouldn't hesitate to teach others to kill them too.

[bloodrayne]

in sending them in, George Bush made America an enemy of Iraq, so what do you expect. Iraq was already 'our enemy'...They (most of them) want us dead...Because we (most of us) do not live the way they do...

None of the countries surrounding them 'invaded their country' but they are constantly killing THEM, too

We need weapons to protect ourselves...They want weapons to kill everyone...Hussein killed over 6,000 of his OWN people with chemical weapons

[ferretchucker]

but it wasn't our fight was it. It was happening in their country, so going in there, taking it over and letting innocent people die doesn't seem like a good idea to me. And let's not forget the countless friendly fires on our side.

[bloodrayne]

but it wasn't our fight was it. It was happening in their country, so going in there, taking it over and letting innocent people die doesn't seem like a good idea to me. And let's not forget the countless friendly fires on our side.
If they are hell-bent on killing us, it IS our fight...If we don't stop them THERE, they will come here

As for friendly-fire, that happens in war, too (No, that doesn't make it suck any less)...Every enlisted person CHOSE to enlist, and upon enlisting vowed to die protecting their country...No one forced anyone to join the military...England agreed to help us out...I'd say Al-Qaeda is probably a bigger threat to you guys, because they're much closer to you...Who wants to take that chance?

[stubbornforgey]

Iraq was already 'our enemy'...They (most of them) want us dead...Because we (most of us) do not live the way they do...

None of the countries surrounding them 'invaded their country' but they are constantly killing THEM, too

We need weapons to protect ourselves...They want weapons to kill everyone...Hussein killed over 6,000 of his OWN people with chemical weapons



I am not getting this thread.
How can anyone compare the war in Iraq to the abortion debate..??


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10438017

how the fuck can you justify this..??
Whose the one supplying Iraq with the weapons to fight back with..
Double standards don't you think.??

war is money..and this is why America and will always make sure there will always be a war.



Bush doesn't want to admit that his real purpose for the invasion of Iraq has nothing to do with Suddam..its all about controlling the oil.

Lets admit it..if a war broke out in America today..or anywhere in the other parts of the western world TODAY..
do you think our head of states stand side by side with the soldiers to defend its ppl..??
NO FUCKEN WAY!!!They would be whisked away to a safe hiding place and we would be left to fight off bullets with a tennis racket.

[PR3SSUR3]

Their way of life is very different from ours...I'm not saying that being different is wrong, I'm just saying that THEIR differences are DANGEROUS to US and their surrounding countries...Their kids don't have a chance as it is...SOOO

In order for us to be SAFE, they have to STOP trying to kill us (and themselves, and each other, and everyone around them) and stop training their children to do that, too...However, they do not WANT to stop, and until they can be either persuaded or FORCED to stop, how will this ever end?

People are being killed in Iraq because they are a VERY serious threat to us, and just about the entire world (the children are killed on accident)...Babies are being killed here, because they're an inconvenience (the babies are killed on purpose)

Iraq was already 'our enemy'...They (most of them) want us dead...Because we (most of us) do not live the way they do...

None of the countries surrounding them 'invaded their country' but they are constantly killing THEM, too

We need weapons to protect ourselves...They want weapons to kill everyone...Hussein killed over 6,000 of his OWN people with chemical weapons

If they are hell-bent on killing us, it IS our fight...If we don't stop them THERE, they will come here



Since around 80% of Iraqis view the continuing American liberation mission as occupation, the continued presence there must be because the public do not know what is good for them. A similar number of the US military serving in Iraq think they should be gone by now. Other 'unfixed' continents have a far worse child-soldier policy, and don't forget your recently resigned Defence Secretary was a keen supplier of weapons and tactics to Iraq and the Saddam Hussein regime. The child-soldier strategy was introduced into Iraqi conflicts during American support for the invasion of Iran.

Clearly things are not quite as black and white, including Iraq already being the enemy of the United States with nonexistent weapons of mass destruction and unconfirmed harbouring of Al-Qaeda, and including your statement that most Iraqis want most Americans dead - what is your source of information?

[ferretchucker]

I don't have the smallest thought that the July 7th bombings would have happened if the war hadn't. And no, England didn't agree, the guys incharge did. Do you know why, because they lick george bush's arse and if he's doing it they want to. And isn't a bit of a coincidence that the country we chose to invade has masses and masses of oil? Those iraqis were just living their lives, how often did they strike us? How many people did it from that entire country? The numbers are few. They were taught in defense because their idiotic leader thought war was good. I consider blaming the an country for what the leader thinks is wrong. Especially considering many of Hitlers germany didn't agree with the war, but what happens if you run? You get shot. do you know how low the numbers for army enrollment have got? Why do you think that is? These people sign up and do what they're told. It all comes down to the stupid fucking leaders. That's all I have to say on the matter.

[chaibill]

When did Iraq become are enemy? when we didn't have a good war in some time and needed a place to spend some weapons, so the people that make the weapons in theUSA didn't loose their jobs. remamber when we use to sell weapons to Iraq and shake hands and stuff oh those were the days.
so next will be North Korea and Iran

[paws the great]

but it wasn't our fight was it. It was happening in their country, so going in there, taking it over and letting innocent people die doesn't seem like a good idea to me. And let's not forget the countless friendly fires on our side.

Blame Saddam Hussein....it's his war!He had twelve years to comply with the U.N. resolutions.


He never complied!



"We make war that we may live in peace" - Aristotle

[paws the great]

When did Iraq become our enemy?
.



When Iraq invaded Kuwait.

[bloodrayne]

Bush doesn't want to admit that his real purpose for the invasion of Iraq has nothing to do with Suddam..its all about controlling the oil.There's plenty of oil In Saudi Arabia and other places in the middle east, and we have quite a bit of our own...I'd say if we had to go through so much in one tiny country, it just wouldn't be worth it

Lets admit it..if a war broke out in America today..or anywhere in the other parts of the western world TODAY..
do you think our head of states stand side by side with the soldiers to defend its ppl..??
No, because that's not the job they signed on for...The soldiers are called 'soldiers' for a reason...The cooks wouldn't be fighting either A similar number of the US military serving in Iraq think they should be gone by now.Yeah, If someone was shooting at ME and people were dying all around me, I'd say it was time for ME to get the hell outta Dodge, too...
Other 'unfixed' continents have a far worse child-soldier policyThis is true

don't forget your recently resigned Defence Secretary was a keen supplier of weapons and tactics to Iraq and the Saddam Hussein regime.That was a different time, for a different scenario, they needed help against Iran...You've never had a 'friend' who eventually became an 'enemy'?

Clearly things are not quite as black and whiteThat's true of many things...Can't disagree with that

including Iraq already being the enemy of the United States Iraq is overrun with religious extremists...According to their (the extremists interpretations of) 'religion', we (and many others) are enemies of Allah...And...Enemies of Allah must be killed

with nonexistent weapons of mass destruction and unconfirmed harbouring of Al-QaedaThe weapons were there, Hussein used them against his own people...He refused (for YEARS) to allow inspectors to see his cache...Why would he do that if he had nothing to hide?...Especially when faced with the threat of punishment and losing so many privileges?...America let the entire WORLD know its every move...They knew what America planned to do, and when they planned to do it...Hell, they even watched the planes take off on television...Tactically, it was extremely stupid...But, everything has to be done 'up front', right?...So, they had plenty of time to get rid of everything, and plenty of people willing to help them do it

As for Al-Qaeda...They're STILL there

including your statement that most Iraqis want most Americans dead - what is your source of information?I already explained what I meant by that (the whole 'enemies of Allah' thing), but if you want a source...Let me know what sources YOU trust, and who you feel can be believed to tell the entire truth, without putting a spin on anything...Then I'll try to locate something from that source

The accuracy of just about anything can be disputed...Especially when even history books have been doctored (we know this to be true, too...But, I don't have a specific source for THAT either...)...Guess I just have to say, this is what I believe to be true

[PR3SSUR3]

It is difficult to swallow the American U-turn on chemical weapons usage, since we know it was not only quite happy to stand by and see them used on Iranian soldiers, but also to continue supplying weapons and tactics in the knowledge that the Saddam Hussein regime had started gassing its own civilians. This is from the senior DIA officer at the time.

In a 1994 report, pathogenic and toxigenic materials were stated as been exported from the US to Iraq. There were 70 shipments, including of Anthrax, to Iraqi government agencies - the same chemicals recovered by UN weapons inspectors from their biological warfare programme. There are more examples of US supplies of money and chemical agents from recognised and reliable sources I can provide, but I don't think that is the issue here.

In helping Saddam Hussein fight back with dirty bombs in a war he started in the first place, the USA had, out of fear of Iran's strengthening and specifically their oil politics, created quite a monster. The 'Axis of Evil', the 'War on Terror' rings like tin.

It is perhaps understandable that these phrases not only give terrorism more significance, but also breed homegrown opinions like most Iraqis want most Americans dead. Do they?

The Program on International Policy Attitudes conducted a poll last year, which suggested most Iraqis now want US forces out very soon, most Iraqis now support attacks on US troops because they fear the US wants permant bases there (this support would halve if there was a withdrawal), but in spite of these increased figures there is no reflection of growing support for Al-Qaeda, which is rejected by almost all Shias and Kurds and most Sunnis.

Only such extremists will - hence the term - want to interpret The Qur'an as an excuse for violence upon people in countries like America and other perceived apostates. The manager of news channel Al-Arabya says not all muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are muslims - which sounds reasonable enough. But surveys have shown that most muslims denounce actions such as the September 11th attacks, more recognising defensive jihad on their muslim neighbours.

Iraq isn't really an enemy of America - the small percentage of religious extremists yes, but most of the Iraqi people want to live and let live. Likewise most Iraqis do not want to kill Americans - just the individuals they see as becoming occupiers forever trying to clean up after what their forebears helped flourish in the first place.

You can reflect on the polled statistics and statements of fact, or you can of course draw conclusions from government propaganda and media angling.

[ferretchucker]

Yeah, If someone was shooting at ME and people were dying all around me, I'd say it was time for ME to get the hell outta Dodge, too...


yeh, but you're not a soldier are you? As you said, it's their job and they signed up for it. These people arent just ordinary men and women, they're trained for war and can deal with things better. If they think something's wrong, then it is.

I'm sorry bloodrayne but I jus can't understand how you can have this point of view. War is never an answer and the fact that it was for a stupid reason is even worse. You're entitled to your opinion but seriously, i thought you were better.

[novakru]

Life is so very precious.
If we only had a glimmer as to what that really meant, there would be no need for abortion, war, murder, hate....

A woman who chooses abortion has an extremely tough choice and I really do not think she goes into this decision lightly nor forgets... she ultimately has to live with her choice and if you think that's easy, think again.
I believe a woman or MAN has to choose this for themselves though.

That being said, I do personally get a little pissed when I hear someone is willingly getting rid of their baby and here's why:
All the women that can't have children or can't afford expensive procedures to have them...how heartbreaking that must be.
I know there's adoption and thank god for that but the loss is still profound.

And women, me included, that have lost babies to miscarriages...you have no idea how painful it is...not only is it your body completely betraying you but the excitement of finding out your pregnant when you REALLY wanted that baby!!... and then...bam... baby gone... dreams gone... the excitment of that new little precious life gone...omg.


Watch 'Life in the Womb' when it comes on again. (I think that's the title, I could be wrong.)

[jenna26]

I'm pro choice because I do believe there are situations where it is better for all of those involved. But I personally do not believe I would ever choose to have an abortion.

I can forgive one mistake, and I can understand where there are situations where the mother is too young or where a woman has been raped. And incest, for example, think about a girl who has been molested and raped by an uncle for years having to carry his child to term, that's just cruel.

BUT I believe there are women that abuse it, and DO take it rather lightly. I have known three women in my life that had several abortions each. What is so damn hard about taking the proper precautions or *gasp* NOT having sex until you are in stable, loving relationship or have a stable, loving home? I actually had a woman one time ask me why I was choosing to abstain from sex during that time (I went several years, and yes I survived). I explained that was one of my several reasons, I didn't want to have an accident, and bring a child into the world when I just wasn't ready. She actually said these words to me......"you could JUST have an abortion".....and went on to explain that she had had two herself. It just didn't seem like it was a big deal to her. And it made me very angry. Like Nova pointed out, there are so many women that would love the chance to have their own children, and can't. And women that have several abortions, who use abortion as birth control essentially, have no respect for themselves, their bodies, or all of those many women out there.

There seems to be so little personal responsibility anymore. So what the responsibility is unequal between men and women? Yes, the women go through the physical part, and it is easier for the men to duck out.....and that isn't fair, but VERY little in life in fair. Personally, I say you just deal with it. You made the choice to have sex, you knew the chance you were taking, so deal with it and don't take a life just because it just isn't fair.

I will end with this, my mom had two friends. Both of these friends didn't want children, decided at a young age they weren't cut out to be mothers. Both were married. One had several abortions, one has never gotten pregnant once. Now, what makes more sense, that one was just lucky, or that she actually just took the proper precautions and lived her life responsibly?

Like I said, one mistake I can forgive, and I do believe it is an individual choice, and I have no right to make that choice for anyone. But I also think that is time for people to take some responsibility for their actions. And I know choosing to have an abortion would be against my OWN moral standards. I don't expect everyone else to feel about it the same way I do however.

[The STE]

Geez, I skip from page 1 to the end of the thread and suddenly it goes from talking about abortions to talking about war.


Anywho, personally, if I were in the position, I wouldn't get an abortion. Doesn't mean someone else should. I'm not saying "Oops, damn, I didn't pull out in time. Hang on, smoochy-poo, lemme get the coat hanger" is okay, because it's not. I do not condone anybody using "smoochy-poo" as a pet name in the non-ironic sense. But if someone uses every precaution, uses a condom or a diaphragm or the pill or even gets a vasectomy, and the decision is made to get an abortion, and they're prepaired to deal with the moral issues during and after the act, then I don't see why other people should tell them they can't. Yeah, you can't get pregnant if you don't have sex, and I'll ignore the rape/incest hypotheticals for now, but if someone doesn't want to ever have kids, they should, what, never have sex ever? Just hire prostitutes? Saying "You know you could get pregnant by having sex, you should've kept it in your pants" when they made an effort to not have kids isn't fair. People who skydive know the risks, but they're not jumping out of the plan without a parachute.

And yes, the fetus has no say. But that's only because it has no say. It's a fetus. For the first while it doesn't have lungs or a spinal cord. Now, I don't remember much from biology class, but I remember that humans are mammalian, and mammals are defined by, among other things, lungs and spinal cords. No, you don't have a fish in your womb. Nobody said you did, that's a stupid argument. You have a fetus in there. It's not a self-sustaining life form, it's closer biologically to a parasitic life form. If you don't want to get rid of it, bully for you, don't. I wouldn't either. But that's no reason to make a law about it.

I think as far as the abortion/death penalty thing, I'm the exact opposite of Rayne. Well, I'm for the death penalty in principle. What they did to their victems should be done to them. But the judicial system is not flawless, innocent people are put in jail more often than I'm comfortable with, and I don't have enough faith in the legal system to support it putting people to death.

[ferretchucker]

I am definetely pro choice but I think whether it's right or not is down to the circumsances. Two years ago my mum was pregnant and then had a miscarriage at 6 weeks. It affected us all and yes, it is painful, so the thought that people can just give up a baby is a bit annoying. But for abou the millionth time it depends on the circumstances.

[jenna26]

I agree that the option should be there. But there are plenty of people that do NOT take the proper precautions and then get pregnant....and what, they are shocked? Despite what some people would say, most people with any sense are educated enough to know what causes pregnancy and how to prevent it. And yes, I do believe if you can't have sex responsibly then you simply shouldn't have sex. Not just because of pregnancy, but also because of STD's. I have known very few women to get pregnant while they were using a reliable form of birth control. Well, I have known none to tell me, hey I was on the pill and we were using a condom and I still got pregnant. Its usually.....shit, we forgot to the condom....and I don't like the pill.....and we were in the moment....:rolleyes: If an accident does happen, and yes, accidents do, I would never tell a woman she HAS to have that child, or feel that I have that right to make that decision for her. But it isn't something someone should just do in place of showing some sense, and living a responsible life. As Nova said, life is precious. And to me, having multiple abortions is cold and totally irresponsible. Hell, depending on the situation and the woman, having ONE can be.

And I agree with STE about the death penalty, I used to support it for practical reasons, I admit. But I have seen too many Cold Case Files, the judicial system is too unbalanced and unreliable, as are eyewitness accounts, and if even one innocent person is put to death, it isn't worth it. But then there are those like Ted Bundy, where there is absolute no doubt and they are particularly heinous crimes well.....I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep about that. I'm just all over the place......;)

[stubbornforgey]

Blame Saddam Hussein....it's his war!He had twelve years to comply with the U.N. resolutions.


He never complied!



"We make war that we may live in peace" - Aristotle

BULL FUCKEN SHIT!!!!!!

12 YEARS TO COMPLY WITH U.N RESOLUTIONS.

1st excuse for invading Iraq...
oh they have stocks of weapons of mass destruction

2nd excuse for the invasion...
Saddam mistreated his ppl so we are going in to oust him out.

and now this..
what next..??the children of Iraq won't eat spaghetti and meatballs..??

As for the Aristotle quote: puhlease!!
how the hell can anyone justify the loss of many innocent lives..or
come up with the lame excuse such as..'there will always be casualties of war..
These so called casualties who were one day enjoying a typical family life..to have some fuck send in his big boys to test his new toy..and in less than 20 minutes ..wipe away these casualties dreams of someday being a writer or an actor or maybe prime minister.
And how the fuck can any of you sit back and say ..oh its ok...cos our govt says so..blame another countries leader who has been executed already..
all because he wouldnt comply with the UN resolutions.
If the UN were actually involved with this war...do you think ..there answer would be to wipe out a whole civilization..??NO.

America wants control of the oil cos thier supply is nearly dried up!!!
Australia is there because they are promised trade sanctions.
Britains there because of the same deal with Australia.

[paws the great]

BULL FUCKEN SHIT!!!!!!

America wants control of the oil cos thier supply is nearly dried up!!!
Australia is there because they are promised trade sanctions.
Britains there because of the same deal with Australia.

In (1990) the U.S. with 30 nations liberate Kuwait....the U.S. remained in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait to deter another invasion by Iraq.

In (1996) Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda declare holy war on the U.S.



The U.S.A. had it's military in the middle east becouse of Saddam Hussein!As long as Saddam and his Ba'th party had control of Iraq.......the U.S. would have to stay in the middle east to protect the region!


"It is the duty of every tribe in the Arabian Peninsula to fight JIHAD and cleanse the LAND from these crusader occupiers"- Osama Bin Laden (1996)

[paws the great]

War is never an answer.

Glad "Winston Churchill" didn't feel the same way?;)




"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile,hoping it will eat him last"

[Dante'sInferno]

War will never end,It's in our nature to destroy ourselves.

[stubbornforgey]

In (1990) the U.S. with 30 nations liberate Kuwait....the U.S. remained in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait to deter another invasion by Iraq.

In (1996) Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda declare holy war on the U.S.



The U.S.A. had it's military in the middle east becouse of Saddam Hussein!As long as Saddam and his Ba'th party had control of Iraq.......the U.S. would have to stay in the middle east to protect the region!


"It is the duty of every tribe in the Arabian Peninsula to fight JIHAD and cleanse the LAND from these crusader occupiers"- Osama Bin Laden (1996)


where was USA intervention Idi Amin..??or Mugabe..??..Pinochette..??..huh..??
I.R.A..?? Need i bring up the Oklahoma bomber..??
Where was Americas 'gonna stamp out this kinda behaviour then..'?
Nowhere..and you know why..??they have nothing USA want.

i agree..these ppl must be stopped..they go against everything Islam stands for..however...why was Jihad initiated in the 1st place..?
Because of foreign disrespect for thier religion..because of foreigners who think nothing of walking into a holy place like a mosque with thier shoes on..or a foreign woman refusing to cover her hair because its apparently her right as a USA citizen to do as she pleases...maybe in America yes..but not on somebody elses soil.
Has it ever occured to you all ..that the longer USA forces are there..the longer all this is going to carry on.
and finally..who asked them to intervene in the 1st place.?

oh and one last final detail ..Afghanistan is not Iraq
Bin Laden hails from Afghanistan.
Saddam hails from Iraq but hes dead now..so why are the forces still there..??
Those radicals know USA are after the oil..why do you think they are targeting the wells
to mainly destroy.?

[paws the great]

Has it ever occured to you all ..that the longer USA forces are there..the longer all this is going to carry on.
and finally..who asked them to intervene in the 1st place.?
?

The middle east has a necessary commodity.......OIL!They sell it,we buy it!


If "Saddam" was still in power,we would be there until he died of old age.We were asked to intervene by Saudi Arabia,Kuwait and the United Nations!

We help our friends!:)

[stubbornforgey]

The middle east has a necessary commodity.......OIL!They sell it,we buy it!


If "Saddam" was still in power,we would be there until he died of old age.We were asked to intervene by Saudi Arabia,Kuwait and the United Nations!

We help our friends!:)


you were not asked to help..
it was highly publicised..that American President asked for permission to go ahead and attack on the suspicion that Iraq was processing weapons of mass destruction..
Permission was not granted unless proof was provided..none was forthcoming.
How they managed to bomb the civillian homes on thier 1st night of the invasion is beyond me and the rest of the world..
How they figured all these mass destructive weapons were hoarded in civillian homes..then came up with the lamest excuse..'oh...we believe saddam was hiding out there'


'hands on hips'.
I was asked a question just recently..'last night' to be exact from a member who saw my replies in this thread..sarcastic as it seemed.
If a war broke out in NZ today..they bet we would scream for American aid.
I want to say this and i say it with pride.

Our country is only small..in fact one good tsunami and NZ is gone..however ..
our country may have govts..but its the people who have the final say in matters.
We are not in favour with America because we will not allow them to carry nuclear arms through our waters.
The only reason our 2 main parties stay in power is because of this..we have spoken.
..National almost won the election except for one minor detail..they stated..if they came to power..they would lift the nuclear ban and allow them to pass through our waters...3 days later..they were voted out.

Because of our stance..we do not get american trade sanctions..we do not get many things America has offered to the rest of the world..
We were told.and i quote'..unless we lift the ban..NZ will always be our friend but will not the reap the rewards'..enquote.

If a war broke out in NZ..we will be anhilated..however ..we will be crushed with our pride and dignity still inact.

In other words..we didnt kiss ass' to save ourselves.

[paws the great]

you were not asked to help..
.

I was talking about the first gulf war(1990)Saudi Arabia and Kuwait never asked us to leave,Why?becouse of "Saddam Hussein!"



Why are we still there?

When the government of Iraq ask us to leave... we will.:)If we leave right now....I don't think it would be very good for the government or the people of Iraq!

If Al-Qaeda would stop killing non-combatants...I might have a different opinion about this war.

[stubbornforgey]

what about them Blues then huh..??

Ok..em over this subject now.
We will always differ on opinion ..however...i salute you paws.
Your a worthy debating partner.

Back to topic again..Abortion.

all i know from a personal point of view that i would never do it..no matter what the circumstnaces ..but then..thats my personal choice.

[ferretchucker]

sorry to continue but you seem to be one of the few here with any sense at all stubborn. Considering the amount of countries with stupid leaders, isn't it odd that Bush, a texas oil supporting megalomaniac chose to invade that one. The war was pitiful, as for your comment on winston churchill paws, he didn't declare the war. And world war II was a big mistake. But so would letting hitler carry on invading countries be. In that situation, war was inevitable. Wrong completely but inevitable. It was that or let him become ruler of earth. but Hussein wasn't invading half of his continent, he wasn't threatening every country. He was just a stupid leader. As is George bush but nobody invades him do they? I wonder why. Could it be because of all those weapons of mass destruction he has?

[paws the great]

Hussein wasn't invading half of his continent, he wasn't threatening every country. He was just a stupid leader. [?

Really?



Invaded Iran (1980)
Invaded Kuwait (1990)


Poor Saddam Hussein,he would never hurt Israel,Saudi Arabia or the Kurds!:rolleyes:

[paws the great]

as for your comment on winston churchill paws, he didn't declare the war. And world war II was a big mistake. But so would letting hitler carry on invading countries be. In that situation, war was inevitable. Wrong completely but inevitable. It was that or let him become ruler of earth. [


The first country Germany attacked was Poland ........in (1939)


BRITAIN declared war on Germany one month later!Hitler invades one nation and BRITAIN declares WAR! Why?

Did BRITAIN choose war...before giving peace a chance?Warmongers?

[chaibill]

The first country Germany attacked was Poland ........in (1939)


BRITAIN declared war on Germany one month later!Hitler invades one nation and BRITAIN declares WAR! Why?

Did BRITAIN choose war...before giving peace a chance?Warmongers?

Do you think the US government cares about anyone browner than them get real. Politians don't live in the real world they live in their world. They give themselves pay raises that is just silly. if your country has something of value the us will take it. We start wars because we make the weapons and can't layoff the people that make the weapons. Diplomacy can solve problems not ignoring north korea until they test a nukebomb.

[paws the great]

[QUOTE=chaibill;60021 if your country has something of value the us will take it. Diplomacy can solve problems not ignoring north korea until they test a nukebomb.[/QUOTE]

What do we take from other countries?



Diplomacy with North Korea failed in the 90's.... can we trust them now?I don't think so.

[chaibill]

What do we take from other countries?



Diplomacy with North Korea failed in the 90's.... can we trust them now?I don't think so.

1. oil, metals, wood, rock, and we destroy the land to do it

2. it failed when Bush stop talking with them Can we trust them we can't even trust your president

[paws the great]

1. oil, metals, wood, rock, and we destroy they land to do it

2. it failed when Bush stop talking with them Can we trust them we can't even trust your president

1.I thought other countries sold this crap to us!:confused:

2. Bush was our president in the 90's?:confused:

[chaibill]

1.I thought other countries sold this crap to us!:confused:

2. Bush was our president in the 90's?:confused:

No this Bush wasn't talkig to Kim Jung Il because he is part of "the axis of evil, you see" So Bush thought it would be a good idea to not have relations with him and make him wonder if the US will still send N korea food

they sell us the products but the us takes advantage go visit some of these places

[stubbornforgey]

No this Bush wasn't talkig to Kim Jung Il because he is part of "the axis of evil, you see" So Bush thought it would be a good idea to not have relations with him and make him wonder if the US will still send N korea food

they sell us the products but the us takes advantage go visit some of these places

hahahahahaha..you said 'RELATIONS'

[ferretchucker]

The first country Germany attacked was Poland ........in (1939)


BRITAIN declared war on Germany one month later!Hitler invades one nation and BRITAIN declares WAR! Why?

Did BRITAIN choose war...before giving peace a chance?Warmongers?

you need to brush up on your history. germany had already invaded several countries and we gave him a warning. we said "ifyou invade Poland, we will declare war on you." And they did.

Another note that annoys me:

Then, we ask america for a hand and they refuse. So, several years in, we had allies, the french had fucked off and Hitler was just as evil. Japan bombs pearl harbour for no reason. What happens. America beg for our help. And we say yes. Japan become feared everywhere for their evil ways and in the end, after the war has ended, after most of the fighting had stopped, someone says "let's drop an A bomb on them!" Hiroshima becomes the worst place to be...ever. Children vapourized, a tornado of fire sucking people in as the cling on for dear life. Horrible stuff but it did have to be done. My point is, all this crap americans give us about "Oh we saved your arse in world war 2," is utter shite. We were winning and would have done. We had russia, some of australia, plenty of countries. America only aided in our winning when they needed help.

[paws the great]

[QUOTE=chaibill;600231]No this Bush wasn't talkig to Kim Jung Il because he is part of "the axis of evil, you see" So Bush thought it would be a good idea to not have relations with him and make him wonder if the US will still send N korea food

they sell us the products but the us takes advantage go visit some of these places


:D :D :D :D :D

[stubbornforgey]

you need to brush up on your history. germany had already invaded several countries and we gave him a warning. we said "ifyou invade Poland, we will declare war on you." And they did.

Another note that annoys me:

Then, we ask america for a hand and they refuse. So, several years in, we had allies, the french had fucked off and Hitler was just as evil. Japan bombs pearl harbour for no reason. What happens. America beg for our help. And we say yes. Japan become feared everywhere for their evil ways and in the end, after the war has ended, after most of the fighting had stopped, someone says "let's drop an A bomb on them!" Hiroshima becomes the worst place to be...ever. Children vapourized, a tornado of fire sucking people in as the cling on for dear life. Horrible stuff but it did have to be done. My point is, all this crap americans give us about "Oh we saved your arse in world war 2," is utter shite. We were winning and would have done. We had russia, some of australia, plenty of countries. America only aided in our winning when they needed help.

Ummmmmmm no..your wrong

The war was in full swing..indeed.
America did not ask for help..in such a sense as you describe
they however became involved when one of thier own was bombed..
and to be honest..the majority of the world involved..needed Americas help to win the war.

Do not take away Americas involvement in helping secure the end of the world wars..many good men fought and died from all over and they deserve to be remembered with the utmost respect. and not have thier memories dragged through some bitter debate on a horror forum many years later.

[paws the great]

Ummmmmmm no..your wrong

The war was in full swing..indeed.
America did not ask for help..in such a sense as you describe
they however became involved when one of thier own was bombed..
and to be honest..the majority of the world involved..needed Americas help to win the war.

Do not take away Americas involvement in helping secure the end of the world wars..many good men fought and died from all over and they deserve to be remembered with the utmost respect. and not have thier memories dragged through some bitter debate on a horror forum many years later.





Thank you!:)

[ferretchucker]

War is a horrible thing that should be avoided at all costs. They helped us I agree and we would have lost many more of our men had they not, but it pisses me off when I get shit about them saving our arses and how they won it for us, because when they do, they're making it seem like our soldiers did nothing. war causes so many arguments. I'm glad Tony Blaire has resigned finally because gordon brown will almost definetely pull our soldiers out of Iraq and when bush comes out of power, hopefully the next president will do the same.

[stubbornforgey]

War is a horrible thing that should be avoided at all costs. They helped us I agree and we would have lost many more of our men had they not, but it pisses me off when I get shit about them saving our arses and how they won it for us, because when they do, they're making it seem like our soldiers did nothing. war causes so many arguments. I'm glad Tony Blaire has resigned finally because gordon brown will almost definetely pull our soldiers out of Iraq and when bush comes out of power, hopefully the next president will do the same.


oh dear..
America likes to immortalise thier war heroes through movies..songs..auto-biography..
There is nothing stopping other countries from doing the same.
They do not at any rate take the glory away from other soldiers who fought side by side with them.
Here in NZ we have many movies about the Maori Battalion who fought in WW1 and thier smartass tactics :D my great grandfather is mentioned in many of these movies.
America has a movies out about Windtalkers' depicting the input by thier indians..
However Australia has nothing out about the Aboriginies who fought alongside them.
War is never a great debate but at the end of the day we have much to be thankful for because of it.

[ferretchucker]

oh dear..
America likes to immortalise thier war heroes through movies..songs..auto-biography..
There is nothing stopping other countries from doing the same.
They do not at any rate take the glory away from other soldiers who fought side by side with them.
Here in NZ we have many movies about the Maori Battalion who fought in WW1 and thier smartass tactics :D my great grandfather is mentioned in many of these movies.
America has a movies out about Windtalkers' depicting the input by thier indians..
However Australia has nothing out about the Aboriginies who fought alongside them.
War is never a great debate but at the end of the day we have much to be thankful for because of it.


who was your great grandfather?

[stubbornforgey]

who was your great grandfather?




do you know someone from the maori battallion.??

[ferretchucker]

erm...possibly. Was his name Hesikiah?