Human nature question

[Roderick Usher]

I bring up topics like this at the school pick-up gate and now all the moms think I'm a freak.

So here's one for you. Say I showed you two photographs; one of a man who was shot by police, one of a rabid dog that had to be put down in a similar manner.

Why is it that nearly EVERYONE would find the dead dog more disturbing than the dead human?

I understand many of you out there are pet owners/lovers. That's fine, not my bag, but I'll certainly not condemn the love of a pet.

RANT
***but I hate gourmet doggie bakeries!!! there are starving PEOPLE in every city, yet the rich jackasses take their pooches to a fucking dog bakery!***

[ItsAlive75]

Cuz we're desensitized to the human deaths? How many movies and shows have you seen where animals are brutally tortured and murdered? PETA would have a field day...

[stubbornforgey]

Thas a good question...
I think that its supposedly the helplessness of the animals.
Man can decide thier own destination..
fate...(not all...but most of the time)
When pics of ppl getting shot by police
are displayed..
the 1st question on everybodies lips are..
wonder what he did wrong??
who did this man rape/murder/burgle..etc.
Or..if its a shooting by a trigger happy cop..investigation done...cop let off because its never thier fault.
Public are sick of that sceanario..
and so it becomes an everyday occurance..and unfortunately accepted by the public at large.
With animals however..thier fates are decided by man so therefore cannot dispute what ever happens to them.

[Roderick Usher]

exactly. I was watching the making of Halloween and Debra Hill was talking about how she hated to see Micheal Myers kill the dog. Who cares about the teens, but the dog, not the dog.

I find this to be a rather perverse form of sentimentalism. That animal life (well cute animal life, that is - watch how we treat a roach or a rat) is somehow more precious than a humans life.

My mantra when writing is "kill the kid, kill the dog"

[stubbornforgey]

Originally posted by Roderick Usher
exactly. I was watching the making of Halloween and Debra Hill was talking about how she hated to see Micheal Myers kill the dog. Who cares about the teens, but the dog, not the dog.

I find this to be a rather perverse form of sentimentalism. That animal life (well cute animal life, that is - watch how we treat a roach or a rat) is somehow more precious than a humans life.

My mantra when writing is "kill the kid, kill the dog"

I find that our sentiment toward rats n roaches are a different matter altogether.
These 2 forms of creatures are pests..and its in our nature to stamp them out..using
all means plausable to do so.

We are a perverse race when we see things like this..
2 food charity bins at the local supermarket..
one for animals...
one for homeless/starving ppl..
The animal box is packed to the brim..
the other one has 3 or 4 cans in it.
'shrug'

[Vodstok]

Animals are generally regarded in amore sympathetic light than humans. Although we usually attribute human qualities to animals, we generally think of them as innocent, and sometimes even good, and especially in America, we tend to think of our fellow humans as less than animals. Sad but true. So an animal getting harmed or exploited is generally regarded as a greater offense, because they are considerec to be not as responsible fo rtheir actions, ie "they are just being an animal", whereas a human is considered to have thought out motive, and evil requires motive.


On the other subject. i love my dog, and we spoil her, but this kind of thing is ridiculous.

[Vodstok]

Originally posted by Roderick Usher
exactly. I was watching the making of Halloween and Debra Hill was talking about how she hated to see Micheal Myers kill the dog. Who cares about the teens, but the dog, not the dog.

I find this to be a rather perverse form of sentimentalism. That animal life (well cute animal life, that is - watch how we treat a roach or a rat) is somehow more precious than a humans life.

My mantra when writing is "kill the kid, kill the dog" I have explained this one to my wife and she can pick it out now. You (Roderick) should be aware of this technique:

In order to make the bad guy BAD, have him kill a dog (or a kid). Road Warrior. Director's cut of T2. The Hills Have Eyes remake.

It's an act that makes the audience emotionally predisposed against the character.

[Phalanx]

Why is it that nearly EVERYONE would find the dead dog more disturbing than the dead human?
If the dog is rabid it's through no fault of its own, you didn't explain the humans story...but one would assume he acted in a more malicious and/or selfish manner.
That, and I personally prefer most animals to the majority of humans out there...not big on conversation, but soothing company to me. My personal feelings have had a HUGE difference in scale between the different animals I've owned and/or encountered.

but I hate gourmet doggie bakeries!!! there are starving PEOPLE in every city, yet the rich jackasses take their pooches to a fucking dog bakery!
No matter how much cash I ever had, this would strike me as stupid. My cat is now on a specific vetinary prescribed diet, which he actually needs to keep certain chemicals balanced, to avoid the recurrence of a potentially life threatening condition that I paid out the nose to fix. Had I any choice in the matter, I'd do what I always have, and make the food for him myself. Not really a spoiling thing, I just figure that the dietary values of what I'd prepare fot animals would be much greater. The rats I have get fresh vegetables, a seed bell here and there, chicken or meat once a week, bread, and a variable range of other things, always fresh unprocessed food, and occasional human leftovers, which in this house is usually pretty good stuff. "we" treat rats just fine.
S'just how we do things here.
But yeah...I'd have the same problems here with the gourmet doggy bakeries. I'm not some paris hilton fuckhead, that probably has something to do with it.

[Miss Olivia]

They just opened a gourmet dog bakery where I live. I went in, and the owner was looking at me funny, because I was laughing hysterically when I walked out.

[Vodstok]

quite frankly, dogs eat shit, even good dogs. i think gourmet food is wasted on them, they dont care. And if they do, then they are probably miserable in daily life. their owners should be euthanized.

[hammerfan]

Originally posted by Phalanx
Had I any choice in the matter, I'd do what I always have, and make the food for him myself. Not really a spoiling thing, I just figure that the dietary values of what I'd prepare fot animals would be much greater.


Actually, cats and dogs have different nutritional needs than we humans do. Preparing human food for them is not healthy for them. At least, that's according to my veterinary technology course books.

To answer the question at hand, for me personally, most of the time I prefer animals to humans. They have no hidden agenda and won't screw you over for a buck.

[Miss Olivia]

Very true. The only screw a dog is interested in most of the time, in the case of my gramma's pekinese, is your leg.:p

[crabapple]

I think gourmet doggie bakeries are a really good idea! I mean, people put funny costumes and dresses on their pets for holidays, so it is conceivable that a dog or a cat might like a special turkey or pumpkin flavored biscuit for all that work they do being "adorable." People get to eat all this awesome stuff and pets get some dry mixture out of a bag that they eat every day. The aminals demand tasty victuals! Well, I think they do, anyway.

Here's a webpage that you should look at. It concerns rats.

http://www.geocities.com/susanlikesrats/cutebody.html

[Zero]

. . . but dead monkeys, well that's a whole other story



damnit

[Vodstok]

Animals also enjoy the same foods we do. But most of the shit we eat will kill them in no time. Makes you feel great about our diet, doesnt it?

[XtRaVa]

Thats a very good question, and I wont pretend to know an answer. In a film I do sometimes feel bad when someone innocent dies, but usually I dont care at all...however when a dog gets killed I'm like :eek: Nooo! Not the doggy :(

Not sure why :P

[Haunted]

Life is life.

[1beastieibe]

I think it's because animals are innocent, loving, and trusting, but people are evil, hateful, and moronic.

Myself I hate 99.1 percent of the population, and for some reason do not feel much, if any heartache when people pass away. If my child passed away then IM sure I would feel something, but most of it would be anger and rage rather then sorrow.

If my dog died, I would cry for months, maybe years.

[VampiricClown]

Ummm...They don't bother me one way or the other. What's done is done and can't be stopped.

So I really don't give a fuck about that kind of thing.

Cold hearted maybe, but it saves my emotions.

[bloodrayne]

I just wanted to comment on the bakery thing...We have a Pet SPA at the end of our street...I'll try to get a picture of it for you guys sometime...




I only have a second...Birthday shopping for Seri...


I wish you guys could be here for the party tomorrow...As you know, she will be 18, so her birthday party theme this year is : Death of Seri's Childhood...This is the design for the cake:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/BloodRayne/cake.png

That's just a basic design...We are removing the 'here lies' part, and capitalizing the 'C' in childhood.....There will be lots of black and dark purple roses in the grass on the bottom...

I'm sure there will be plenty of pictures to post of the actual cake.....We are also having a mock burial...Barney, Pokemon, and anything else Seri can find from her childhood will be put in a black coffin, and buried in the backyard....Gotta take off now...Need to finish getting things ready.......Now, where in the hell is that shovel?....

[Phalanx]

Actually, cats and dogs have different nutritional needs than we humans do. Preparing human food for them is not healthy for them.
What I have always given my animals isn't essentially human only food. There is always food designed for animals either in combination or rotation with it...I figure as long as it's not processed garbage, it's fine. There's a lot of rubbish in commercial pet food too...you have to be pretty selective.

[crabapple]

I used to have this little black cat and I would give him dry food moistened with water and with a little tuna or chicken mixed in there to sort of flavor it up a little. He got along pretty well on that stuff but then he moved to another house. :( But he was a happy litta cat when he was here :)

[Phalanx]

I absolutely believe that even though some animals will eat just about any crap indescriminantly, to some extent, they appreciate effort in the food department.
I just feel that if you consider an animal more towards a friend than property (there's a large scals of in-betweens), then you won't want them to eat just any old garbage.

[hammerfan]

I'm glad to hear you say that, cheebs. I have known people that had pets when they told me what they fed them I looked at them like "Are you out of your mind?". It's unbelievable what some people will feed their pets. I don't know why I doubted you, I should have known better. You're smarter than that!

[Phalanx]

Well thanks...I just try and do my best to make an animals time spent with me worthwhile on their end too.

[novakru]

I think I would feel badly about Both pictures.
Cops are assholes sometimes but they are here to protect and they have a seriously tough job,so the death of one of our Thin Blue Line is a very sad thing to me.
If it were just a picture of a random someone....maybe I would feel less? I'm not sure.
The doggie would definitely cause me to tear up,I cry when I see dead animals of any sort on the road...so animal deaths do tug my heart much more.
I feel that animals are here for us in so MANY ways,they add beauty to Life.
Pets are on the top of my list because they provide much love and comfort.
People can be cruel and hard to empathize with, and let's face it-so damn many of them just taking, taking, taking without much giving back.



And I really don't mind doggie bakeries....I think though, if I HAD a dog, he/she would only get a treat from there on it's birthday.:)


edit: I just re-read the first post.
It's a man SHOT by a cop.
My bad.
Yeah,it would still disturb me to see a picture like that.

[Haunted]

I would not dare make any judgements on the dietary restrictions placed on your cat C, because that would just be really shitty on my part. You know what's best, and I hope your cat remains and retains it's health and vigor. I just wanted to say that before I posted this.

I know that all cats from the "big cats" (tigers, lions, panthers, cheetahs, etc) to felis catus (house cats of varying variety) are carnivors (now hammerfan, you may know differently, but that last veternary piece I read stated that they were carnivors). However, dogs, believe it or not, the canis familiaris, are, in fact, omnivorous.

Cats can only derive real nutrition from meat and meat bi-products, while dogs can derive some nutrition from plant material. Over the thousands of years of our companionship with them (cats), in other words, the years that they've allowed us to be in their presence, they have retained their predatory nature.

(The great thing about our relationship with our cats is that it's symbiotic. Like with my Irish... I've been there for him, when he needed my intervention, and he's been there for me. Our love (cat and cat's mum) is a mutal thing. He's not loyal to me, although he does love me and thus is loyal. Ya dig?)

Cats are totally different from dogs. You kick a dog (you deserve to be kicked repeatedly until something breaks...just my opinion) it'll probably return. You kick a cat (same thing) it just might kick back, but it most likely will not return. You have to earn a cat's love and trust, even if you raise it from kitten to adult.

[PR3SSUR3]

To answer the question, there is often more empathy about killed animals than humans because they are of a different species.

More specifically, people generally believe other creatures to be of lesser brilliance than humans but of no less relevance - especially in death.

Therefore, more concern is offered to the 'innocent' species that died under circumstances clearly beyond its ability to control.

[hammerfan]

Originally posted by Haunted
I know that all cats from the "big cats" (tigers, lions, panthers, cheetahs, etc) to felis catus (house cats of varying variety) are carnivors (now hammerfan, you may know differently, but that last veternary piece I read stated that they were carnivors). However, dogs, believe it or not, the canis familiaris, are, in fact, omnivorous. Cats are totally different from dogs. You kick a dog (you deserve to be kicked repeatedly until something breaks...just my opinion) it'll probably return. You kick a cat (same thing) it just might kick back, but it most likely will not return. You have to earn a cat's love and trust, even if you raise it from kitten to adult.


You're absolutely right, cats ARE carnivorous and get most of their nutritional needs from meat.

And in your second point, you're also correct except that if you kick a cat, it'll probably rip your face off and then leave and never come back! ;) At least, I know Lucy would!

[stubbornforgey]

Originally posted by Zero
. . . but dead monkeys, well that's a whole other story



damnit


no pun intended..dead monkeys make good trophies :D

[Disease]

an animal or person close to you, when they die in what ever way it will hurt, other than that it is wallpaper.

[XtRaVa]

I asked a few people this question, and the majority of answers were something along the lines of: "Because a dog is cute and cant defend itself".

Thats fair enough, but then I said to them: "Yeah but a dogs just an animal of low intelligence, wheras a person is a human being, with much more to live for, and think about his family and friends who it will all cause so much pain to".

Then they all realised it made no sense to be more disturbed or upset about the dog. They'd still be more upset to see a dead dog, as would most people, but now they'd have no explanation as to why.

[PR3SSUR3]

Because you cured them of their misplaced compassion?

On the contrary, there is plenty of sense in having more concern for a dead dog - your presumption that a human has more to live for because of greater intelligence tells us that it is more of a loss to the planet if a human dies.

To society, maybe, but then again dogs do not commit mass murder in the name of invisible deities nor rape old grannies because they had no money to hand over to satisfy a crack cocaine habit.

I would rather a complete stranger died than my dog, if given the choice.

[XtRaVa]

Originally posted by PR3SSUR3
Because you cured them of their misplaced compassion?


lol :p Just because they now thought their reason wasnt any better than my reason why they should be upset about a dead human.

Yeah humans can be evil etc, and do horrible things, but that dead person might live his life like a complete angel with no reason to die, and leaving a family in pain etc.

You say you'd rather a stranger die than your dog, thats a bit of a scary statement but of course I understand it. However, would you rather see a stray dog dead, or a stranger? Hopefully you'd rather see a stray dog dead...

[Roderick Usher]

I don't buy the whole "dogs are innocent" line either. Dogs are probably the only onther animal on the planet that has a sense of right and wrong and feels shame.

Don't believe me?

What does the dog do when it pees on the rug or gets into the food or tears up the drapes or smothers the baby?
It hides.
It knows that it did wrong and knows that you will be upset with it before any scolding or discipline occurs.

I've met evil dogs, they're just like evil people - they were abused or neglected in some way that made them hate the world.

[Vodstok]

Animals in general are capable of emotion and motive on some level, and also have some degree of self awareness.

However, i think people's reactions to these situations have more to do with preconcieved ideas about animals and humans than anything else.


Spiders are just as innocent as a cute little sharpei, but they are ugly as sin, so they get the reputation of being bad. plus many have poison.


if people were getting bitten and dying from poisonous sharpeis, public opinion would sway pretty quickly.

[ItsAlive75]

Originally posted by Vodstok
if people were getting bitten and dying from poisonous sharpeis, public opinion would sway pretty quickly.

I would just love to see rats and kittens get trapped in sharpei webs.

[PR3SSUR3]

Dogs are probably the only onther animal on the planet that has a sense of right and wrong and feels shame.

However, domesticated dogs are known to pander to their human superiors in order to get what they want (food, fun, affection etc.) - so that sense of right and wrong is debatable, and is probably down to the obedient instinct that has been forced into the canine for thousands of years. Doing things it gets scolded for means the dog quickly learns to fall into line, or it gets ignored/beaten/starved. Developing a pleasant nature doesn't make a domesticated dog clever - just a survivor on a softer level. If anything, the obedient animal with its human interaction is betraying its true instincts as a greedy pack-hunting beast.

Some argue dogs could be even more shrewd and manipulative than cats, who are fickle and only tend to suck up to their owners in times of need (which is why many say they 'dislike' cats - because they don't make them feel as special and important as dogs do).

[XtRaVa]

Originally posted by Roderick Usher
I don't buy the whole "dogs are innocent" line either. Dogs are probably the only onther animal on the planet that has a sense of right and wrong and feels shame.

Don't believe me?

What does the dog do when it pees on the rug or gets into the food or tears up the drapes or smothers the baby?
It hides.
It knows that it did wrong and knows that you will be upset with it before any scolding or discipline occurs.

I've met evil dogs, they're just like evil people - they were abused or neglected in some way that made them hate the world.

That has some truth in it. However we dont know if the dog is truly ashamed and sorry for what its done when it cowers its head, it could just be scared at getting yelled at, told off etc.

If thats the case, the dog might still want to do those things, but doesnt because then it knows it will get treats rather than told off. Therefore it doesnt necessarily mean the dog is good and not evil does it?

However I do agree with you that some dogs are bad, and most are good, just like humans.

[Haunted]

Pr3ssur3... it may come as a great shock to you, but I completely agree with you.

I believe that human beings are the only animal on the planet capable of being deliberately malignant in terms of good and evil. The great apes (chimps, gorillas, and orangs) may be exceptions in some cases, however.

The only thing that causes, since we're using dogs, dogs to become ruthless killers are nervous diseases. One is rabies, of course. The other is a nervous disorder that develops over time, and is seen through increased aggression. This explains why some dogs suddenly "turn" on their human companions. In essence, these dogs are born with an untreatable mental illness.

The reason I know this about dogs is because when I get a place with enough land I want to get a rottweiler. I want at least one rottweiler to have to chance to grow up as Nature intended for canis familiaris: to be a dog, a ball chasing, butt wagging (They usually clip their tails, because rotties have a tendency to develope cancer in their tails early on), happy, slobbering dog. So, I'm doing a lot of research, because it's sort of like raising a kid, except if a kid bites you, they don't break your arm, even if it's just being a bit too playful.

Oh, and by the way... I, personally think that spiders are beautiful, all eight legged, eight to even ten eyed, glory. Had one crawling on me the other day... Just leveled out my hand, let her climb on and put her some where safe.:D

[Vodstok]

Bree has a great deal of respect for all life. if possible, she will avoid killing anythign, even spiders, which she is terrified of. She even would have preferred to not kill the neast that terrorized her last week, but she was protecting our baby, and she would wrestle a bull elephant to do that. :)

[Roderick Usher]

so happy my threads stir such emotion and debate:D

Thought I should share an incident that took me off pets. I was babysitting my nieces and one of their bitches just had a litter. In the middle of the night one of the puppies managed to crawl through a small hole in the chicken wire around thier doghouse. It went missing the whole day. When I found it the following day in a small hole (in the neighdors torn-up yard) it was covered in ants and maggots, but still alive.

I cleaned the bugs off but saw there was a gash running the length of the puppies back (probably from the chicken wire) and the gash was crawling with maggots and ants.

The puppy was feably yelping in pain. The nieces we distressed. I called my brother and asked what he wanted me to do and he told me to put the puppy out of its misery. So i broke its neck.

Haven't been too big on pets since.

[Vodstok]

Originally posted by Roderick Usher
so happy my threads stir such emotion and debate:D

Thought I should share an incident that took me off pets. I was babysitting my nieces and one of their bitches just had a litter. In the middle of the night one of the puppies managed to crawl through a small hole in the chicken wire around thier doghouse. It went missing the whole day. When I found it the following day in a small hole (in the neighdors torn-up yard) it was covered in ants and maggots, but still alive.

I cleaned the bugs off but saw there was a gash running the length of the puppies back (probably from the chicken wire) and the gash was crawling with maggots and ants.

The puppy was feably yelping in pain. The nieces we distressed. I called my brother and asked what he wanted me to do and he told me to put the puppy out of its misery. So i broke its neck.

Haven't been too big on pets since. Why not?:confused:






J/k. I can see how that would traumatize you. A friend of mine flipped a dead hedgehog over with a stick once when i was 11. the underside was crawling with maggots. scared the shit out of me and i have had a fear of dead things ever since. Even dead bugs freak me out.

[urgeok]

a friend of mine hit a cat with his car ... it came out of these bull rushes at the side of the road - he had no chance to stop.

when i got out it was writhing all over the road like it had 10,000 volts running through it. Its back was obviously badly broken and was suffering horribly.

I dont know where i got the strength but i went over and put my foot on its throat and suffocated it.

that was over 20 years ago and i'll never get that image out of my head if i live to be 200.


as far as the debate goes ... not being a religious person i have a hard time with the arguement with animals vs people ...
i can see both sides of the arguement clearly - but i do know this .. no animal ever threatened to destroy the planet before - except us.

fucking dinosaurs .. massive creatures that struggled for life every day of their lives - existed for over 250 million years and left the planet the way they found it.

in a fraction of that time that compares to a blink of an eye - 'man' has managed to put an entire planet on the edge of destruction .. in more than just a couple of ways.

we all work, sleep, eat, contribute (or not) try to meet our goals, breed, attemp a better future for our children .. but the long and short of it is : man is the foulest disease ever let loose on this planet.

on a more shallow level - yeah - i feel very sorry for animals that die in real life as a result of intentional harm .. they dont know what the hell is going on.

in a movie - i could care less .. that dog/cat actor probably just made more in that movie than my entire salary for the past year.

[XtRaVa]

Once when I was a kid I came into my room to find my hamster cage on the floor all open, sawdust everywhere etc. Hamster was missing :( (The cat had taken it...)

Went looking for it, found it in next door neighbours garden just laying in the dirt, leg missing, belly open, still alive but obviously dying very slowly and painfully...

No one was in so had to sort it out myself, put it in a bag and took a hammer to its head...I was only young, but knew it was the only thing that could be done. Took a while to get over...Needless to say I didnt get a new hampster. :(

We've had a few cats, and whenever they catch a mouse they play with it...its like half alive and they dont finish the job, they just play with it...I've always thought cats were evil :P

[The Demeter]

Did everyone here forget that the dog is rabid? I would be overjoyed to see a dead rabid dog as opposed to a live one.
The picture of the human would be more disturbing to me and that wouldnt be very disturbing at all.

[PR3SSUR3]

I find it disgusting when animals have that have broken loose from fields/circuses/zoos etc. are shot down as a precaution. It's a quick and easy solution.

And I cheer when I see footage of bullfighters and bullrunners getting gored and elephant 'tamers' stamped on. It seems like straightforward revenge.

[XtRaVa]

I think its excellent when Bull fighters get nailed by the Bull...what they do is harsh, really sick. However the Bull will always get killed in the end even if it does get to do some damage. :(

[Haunted]

Originally posted by urgeok
as far as the debate goes ... not being a religious person i have a hard time with the arguement with animals vs people ...
i can see both sides of the arguement clearly - but i do know this .. no animal ever threatened to destroy the planet before - except us.

fucking dinosaurs .. massive creatures that struggled for life every day of their lives - existed for over 250 million years and left the planet the way they found it.

in a fraction of that time that compares to a blink of an eye - 'man' has managed to put an entire planet on the edge of destruction .. in more than just a couple of ways.



I totallly agree with you. So where did we go wrong? It seems almost as if our advancement is an illusion. It's like we evolved to tribal society, living on the land with tides of the seasons, and then went down hill, even though we came up with all of this great shit to play with and do. I'm not saying that tribal life was perfect, but they didn't exploit the land, because they respected it too damn much. They knew better. Read the legends of the Native Americans, the African tribes, even the ancient Europeans...all of the old agrarian societies were like that. You respected the land and the animals, because without them, you were fucked.

We think that we have this "God given right" to live here. That's what mainstream religion teaches, anyway, and even non religious folk hold this too (begging your pardon, Urge) because those mainstream religions have so fully infultrated almost every nook of our thinking (or lack there of).

So if we fuck everything and kill ourselves, which we are heading towards...directly, then imagine what other processes we're going to screw up. It's the old "Take 'em down with me" thing."

[PR3SSUR3]

Reliance on technology is the short answer, and the proverb 'The Devil makes work for idle hands' springs to mind.

Humans only have a few basic instincts to rely on, and the brain can be lethal when it starts to wander.

It's all part of the human package one supposes - I'd rather be me than a rat, faults and all.