I've got a question for those who seen Italian cannibal movies.

[Gelflingboy]

Since the animals were actually killed in movies like "Cannibal Holocaust", "Ferox", "Jungle Holocaust", "Mountain of the Cannibal God", " Eaten Alive!" and "Man from Deep River", do you think it's wrong to kill animals on film that isn't make up or puppet effects?

[IDrinkYourBlood]

I'd be a monster for saying no, so I say yeah it is pretty wrong. And it makes my girlfriend cry. :( poor little creatures. But that is also why I like it so much kinda, yeah, no. Makes the movie more sinister. I dont condone these theatrics now but scince its allready done and over with I embrase it.

[ChEEbA]

For entertainment, it is gross, and inexcuseable.
It's a life one way or another, and I personally found that in the case of cannibal holocaust, it didn't add anything but even more of a distasteful feel to it. Some people are into that, I myself, am not.
I've said this on numerous occasions, after seeing that movie but once, I've wanted to punch the teeth down the throat of whoever made the call to kill those animals for the sake of what I still think is a pretty trashy film. (again, just my opinion, don't bother arguing it - each to their own, each with a right to express as such).


Short answer: Yes, I feel it is wrong.

[Gelflingboy]

And are you an animal rights person, a PETA member or a Vegetarian?

[ChEEbA]

I am none of those things.
I'm not an activist but I do believe in animal rights, and defend them when I'm able. I also donate to the RSPCA (which is like our version of the humane society here), of course I COULD do more, but my finances and time availablility don't allow for it.
Needless to say, I do more than the majority.
I am not vegetarian, but I do believe that if an animal is to be killed, it should be for food, warmth, or in self defence - Not for entertainment, ever.
Yes, I consume animal products...yet before you call me a hypocrite, as seems to be the path you're going down here, I have simply come to the logical realisation that if I myself were to stop buying meat, no animal would be spared.
So, unless you can line up no less than about 100,000 people in every state of the country in which I reside, the amount it would take to make but a small dent in the ongoing market slaughter of the animals here, I'd consider changing my dietary habits a waste of time, as would ceasing to purchase it serve only as a limit on my intended career.

[alkytrio666]

It's just fucking wrong, man.

[Preacher]

Yeah. I'm gonna stay away from these flics from now on. Its got nothin to do with whether or not you are an animal rights protestor or not. Its just wrong and the people making these films should be shot.

[newb]

Cheeba pretty much covered my feelings on this topic.

[Gelflingboy]

The upcoming DVD of "Cannibal Holocaust" will include a version that has human gore and no animal killing just for the senistive viewer.

Heck even Apocalypse Now, Pink Flamingos, Men Behind the Sun, and Hell of the Living Dead ( a.k.a. Night of the Zombies, Zombie Creeping Flesh) had real animals getting killed as well but they did made a law back in 1983 to ban killing animals on film real ones i mean but it's ok to do fake ones.

[Ritualistic]

I guess I am the only one here who doesn`t care about this subject. I am jaded I suppose.

*running out of thread while ducking flying sharp objects*

[IDrinkYourBlood]

Im a meber of PETA.....People Eatting Tasty Animals.


totally made that one up.

[PR3SSUR3]

Real animal slaughter does add a vital element of danger to films such as Cannibal Holocaust, hence the term "guilty pleasure".

It can't be condoned, but it's been done and this kind of work exists so there you go.

Fortunately very few filmakers in very few countries could get away with it today.

Hold on, I've just remembered: all the animal killings are faked - it's the human killings that are real.

[noctuary]

Yes, I do think it's wrong, which is largely why I avoid such movies. I'm not some animal rights fanatic. I eat meat, and I don't disagree with animal testing in certain situations. What bothers me is when animals are made to pointlessly suffer or die.

[novakru]

Originally posted by PR3SSUR3


Hold on, I've just remembered: all the animal killings are faked - it's the human killings that are real.

I don't have a problem with THAT.

And I concur with Noc,I think we have moved passed the time where killing animals is amusing.

[PR3SSUR3]

What troubles me about some of those who remind us of animal rights, is that they can be selective.

For example, it is wholly unacceptable for anything remotely cute - such as a muskrat, a monkey or a turtle (all butchered or deliberately sent to their deaths in several Italian cannibal productions) - to be messed with.

But those same people might squash a fly, spider or even rodent to death in their own houses (it's doesn't take much more effort and is less messy to throw the creatures outside instead, but sadly chasing flying/scuttling beasts around the house with weapons has become something of a sport in some households).

As novakru points out, would human "snuff" be more palatable than on-screen animal cruelty?

[Narg]

It is unnecessary but as far as condemning older films that already have that footage, that's just too much for me.

[ChEEbA]

Real animal slaughter does add a vital element of danger to films such as Cannibal Holocaust, hence the term "guilty pleasure".

I personally found that in the case of cannibal holocaust, it didn't add anything but even more of a distasteful feel to it. Some people are into that, I myself, am not.

We probably meant the same thing, from two different viewpoints.


But those same people might squash a fly, spider or even rodent to death in their own houses (it's doesn't take much more effort and is less messy to throw the creatures outside instead, but sadly chasing flying/scuttling beasts around the house with weapons has become something of a sport in some households).
Nope, generally I won't kill anything unless it's an infestation or something. More often than not, where I live, it'll be a large spider...I'd never kill a spider. Far too useful.
However, if I actually kill something (usually fleas on my cat, or flies, using spray/powder) there's some measure of neccessity, eg - they are making my house unconfortable or filthy, it's the same thing I said before in regards to eating meat - there's no comparison. Sure, in the case of sadist fucks that chase down and kill everything in their immediate area, they'd probably love seeing much the same in film, but not me.


It is unnecessary but as far as condemning older films that already have that footage, that's just too much for me.
I didn't like the film...like I said, that was just my opinion. I'm not telling anyone they shouldn't watch it, so I'm not really condemning the film, rather, I'm condemning those that made it.

[noctuary]

Since PR3SSUR3 brought it up, I'll chime in that the same thing annoys me as well. Kinda makes you wonder... Remember when there was the furor over dolphins being caught in tuna nets? Would there have been the same reaction if it had been barracuda being caught in those nets? Unlikely. At one time, I owned several snakes. It would piss me off to no end when Petsmart would refuse to sell me mice to feed my snakes with. Yes, the mice are cute and cuddly and whatnot, and my snakes weren't. That doesn't mean they don't have the right to eat and live as well.

Hmmm, got kind of off-topic there.

[ChEEbA]

Remember when there was the furor over dolphins being caught in tuna nets? Would there have been the same reaction if it had been barracuda being caught in those nets? Unlikely
I always saw the dolphin thing as an unfortunate side effect of fishing for something that dolphins also use as a food source, they unknowingly put themselves in harms way.
My MAIN issue is that when I buy a can of tuna, I want it to be just that...so I object to ANYTHING being caught but tuna. I myself buy greenseas tuna, which claims to be dolphin free...all I can really do is believe them. As for the comparison to barracuda, well, I think theyre pretty cool myself, so personally I WOULD find it dissapointing, however...dolphins are a more intelligent, and human friendly species, they can even be trained to detect cancer/tumours...etc. They're one of a few species that actually expresses an interest and curiousity not unlike our own, to communicate with, and relate to other species. To kill these creatures under ANY circumstances really IS a shame, but hey...again, my main issue is - I don't wanna eat something I haven't purchased specifically.

re: The snake thing -
When a snake is in the wild, it's natural state - it will prefer to eat all manner of things live. However, it's been proven that these animals CAN consume insects (available live at most pet shops I know), and frozen mice/rats. Yes, of course the snake would most likely prefer to be fed these live mice, but some would argue it'd also much rather be living in the wild, and not as a pet.
In my experience, reptiles don't really like being kept as pets, but that's just my take. I'm only really writing this to let you know that there ARE perfectly suitable alternatives - I myself am not against feeding live mice to pet snakes (although I must say, I'd prefer mice were used over rats)...as again, it's not solely for entertainment...however entertaining a snake eating one may be, it's still essentially for the survival of the creature.
I guess I am a little biased, but not in terms of cute and cuddly, rather intelligence and personality.

[Narg]

Originally posted by ChEEbA
I didn't like the film...like I said, that was just my opinion. I'm not telling anyone they shouldn't watch it, so I'm not really condemning the film, rather, I'm condemning those that made it. [/B]

Totally agree, I wouldn't exactly praise them for it if I ever met them in person either. I don't like seeing it at all but I've certainly seen worse.

[Despare]

I don't really think they had to do it but it doesn't make me want to speak out against them either. what did they do after they killed the animals? Eat them? Oh well, what's done is done, but think of it this way. It's easy to kill something for real and make it look gory but creativity comes into play when trying to make something look real that isn't and fooling people into believing it just means you're doing an even better job. A few pig intestine here, a little blood there....

[PR3SSUR3]

All good points, and I agree about fleas and parasites in general - anything that lives on and feeds directly from a host must run the risk of death if it is discovered, either by the creature itself or someone else who cares for it.

In fact, just look at monkeys grooming each other and munching on the parasites they find in their fur.

[Doc Faustus]

I regret that my favorite film has a rabbit being killed. It's the one thing on film I can't keep my eyes open during. I used to take in stray rabbits and it makes me feel positively sick to see that scene. Sadly, it is however a somewhat important motif. The rest of the film is great, except for that one moment. I think it's a self-absorbed and overzealous thing to believe that your artistic vision is important enough to kill an animal solely to enhance it. I also don't think it makes a person a hypocrite to eat meat and condemn hunting or the killing of animals for artistic purposes. There's a difference between killing to physically nourish people and killing to entertain yourself or others. Real killing is too frequent and too close to home to be entertaining.

[PR3SSUR3]

Is your favourite film Nekromantik?

[InYourFace]

Originally posted by PR3SSUR3
Is your favourite film Nekromantik?

:rolleyes:

It\'s footage from a rabbit farm.
It happens everyday there.
It was not killed for the film.

[PR3SSUR3]

If it is Nekromantik, perhaps Faustus is unaware of the reasoning behind this footage - but the killing of the rabbit is exploited in the film nontheless.

Not to mention filmed by Buttgereit, so while not quite so reprehensible as the tactics of Italian cannibal exploitation... still rather dubious considering the actual death footage was premeditated.

BTW InYourFace: promise you'll stop sending me strange sexually-worded PMs?

Cheers, big guy!


;)

[Rawhead Rex]

Well...

I'll be the Devil's Advocate and say...

I don't care. Let the animals die.

There, it's been said.

[PR3SSUR3]

Of course it's not so much a case of letting the animals die, as it is viewing their wilful destruction by humans as entertainment - this is undeniably a moral issue.

[doctor satan]

The scene where they kill the turtle in CH, Its done for shock value but they reported that it was eaten afterwards & it was killed humanely, For me the scene with the musk rat was far more disturbing the actor is sawing at it & takes 3-4 stabs at it before it dies its squealing the whole time. Umberto Lenzi once said when Francis ford Coppola kills that cow in the climax of Apocalypse now its art, When he kills an animal its animal cruelty........ Thing is i don't remember FFC tying a monkey to a stake & practically force feeding it to a python like he did in FEROX.
One thing i had to laugh at while watching the extras on CH, the actors & the camera man said they did 'nt realise what was going on until it was too late & if they had they would have stopped it.

[InYourFace]

Originally posted by PR3SSUR3
Of course it\'s not so much a case of letting the animals die, as it is viewing their wilful destruction by humans as entertainment - this is undeniably a moral issue.

You have no morals...just a big mouth with no brain attached.

[PR3SSUR3]

big

Thanks for stopping sending me the obscene private messages, InYourFace.

Yer a good 'un!

:p

[gorefreak]

Originally posted by ChEEbA
We probably meant the same thing, from two different viewpoints.



Nope, generally I won't kill anything unless it's an infestation or something. More often than not, where I live, it'll be a large spider...I'd never kill a spider. Far too useful.
However, if I actually kill something (usually fleas on my cat, or flies, using spray/powder) there's some measure of neccessity, eg - they are making my house unconfortable or filthy, it's the same thing I said before in regards to eating meat - there's no comparison. Sure, in the case of sadist fucks that chase down and kill everything in their immediate area, they'd probably love seeing much the same in film, but not me.



I didn't like the film...like I said, that was just my opinion. I'm not telling anyone they shouldn't watch it, so I'm not really condemning the film, rather, I'm condemning those that made it.
I'll definitely kill spiders if I see em, especially the hunting ones that roam around like yellow sac spiders. They're venomous, although not nearly as bad as a recluse, but bad enough as far as I'm concerned. And web spinners just as well. I certainly don't need em layin eggs, hatching, breeding, layin eggs, hatching, breeding.... screw that, I don't care how useful they are. Outside however, I couldn't care less. In fact, I saw a totally kick ass struggle between an american funnel weaver and an ear wig in the back yard. Ol Spidey bit Wig like 6 times, walked around it 4 or 5 times with webbing and figured it was subdued enough and dragged it to the opening of its burrow. Wig tilted its body, took its pincers and clawed the shit out of spidey and both died. :D Spidey fell out of its web and wig died like 3 minutes later. :)

As for the "animal killings", I suppose I'm kinda indifferent in a way. True, killing animals is kinda sad, but as far as cultures that live with nothing, that's basically their source of pelts and food. And I've heard that some of the "killings" from some of those movies was actually clips from nature shows that study on cultural ways of living. But, nonetheless, it should be done in a humane manner, not with the animal screeching and yelping in excruciating pain. Lots of people shoot deer, elk and other game, but it's sickeningly shameful when it's done simply for "the sport of it".

Originally posted by doctor satan
The scene where they kill the turtle in CH, Its done for shock value but they reported that it was eaten afterwards & it was killed humanely, For me the scene with the musk rat was far more disturbing the actor is sawing at it & takes 3-4 stabs at it before it dies its squealing the whole time. Umberto Lenzi once said when Francis ford Coppola kills that cow in the climax of Apocalypse now its art, When he kills an animal its animal cruelty........ Thing is i don't remember FFC tying a monkey to a stake & practically force feeding it to a python like he did in FEROX.
One thing i had to laugh at while watching the extras on CH, the actors & the camera man said they did 'nt realise what was going on until it was too late & if they had they would have stopped it.
Actually, the creature didn't die in "Cannibal Ferrox". Lenzi was like "No, no.... let him eat" and the movie crew was like "If that animal dies, we walk off the set". It's been a long time since I saw that movie. Weren't some of the animals already dead and they filmed em cutting the skins off?

[PR3SSUR3]

With issues about the cruel animal killings in Deodato and Lenzi's cannibal movies, the buck stops with them - most of the contientious scenes were under the control of these directors, even if you include Lenzi's plundering of earlier footage in his Eaten Alive.

That some of the notorious footage might have been culled from other sources is irrelevant - other creatures were still slaughtered or led to their deaths during the making of the films in question for the sole purpose of entertainment.

These real atrocities within fantasy stories will always remain dispriting, and attitudes towards the directors should remain rightfully varied.

[Zombee]

Im kind of in the middle on this .. with CGI and all the new fandagled ways of creating effects I guess there is no reason to kill animals on film now. But then again whats done is done in the case of CH etc.

[Mr. Smooth]

I think that it is wrong to kill the animals in the movies. Now, I only have seen 'Holocaust' and 'Ferox', but considering the time when these films were made, it may have not been that big of a deal. Also, these are foreign films, and they may have different rules regarding this, again though referring back to the era that they were made.

[PR3SSUR3]

Cannibal Holocaust was banned in its country of origin (Italy) against a law forbidding cruelty to animals - it was later overturned.

It's probably right that blatant animal violence is less tolerated in today's society - imagine someone making a film like this now, complete with similar scenes?

Having said that, the thought of likes of Industrial Light & Magic crafting CGI sequences to represent, say, a muskrat or alligator being stabbed to death by a human would be very strange... and very disturbing.

[doctor satan]

[i]Originally posted by gorefreak
Actually, the creature didn't die in "Cannibal Ferrox". Lenzi was like "No, no.... let him eat" and the movie crew was like "If that animal dies, we walk off the set". It's been a long time since I saw that movie. Weren't some of the animals already dead and they filmed em cutting the skins off? [/B]

Your'e wrong, it was all real, listen to the audio commentary between umberto lenzi & Giovanni Radice. Lenzi's trying to justify it by comparing it to Apocalypse now & Radice says he's actually ashamed of the film.
by the way when i said it was real, i meant the animal slaughter i don't want certain people to get confused..........