Political Opinion, so bare with me......... [Archive] - Horror.com Forums

Babygurl20

07-01-2005, 11:56 PM

This is just my opinion and I wanted to get it out in the open and see if anybody else feels the same way I do. I am so tired of Bush keeping our troops over in Iraq for no reason. We should not be over there at all. They randomly bomb us for no reason and they torture our soldiers when we give their prisoners of war a fucking bed to lay on, food to eat, and a damn roof over their heads. Why should we try to help them when it's obvious they don't want it. Bush's first statement before being re elected was that he would not start a draft. What is the first fucking thing he did when he got in office. Started a draft, and whats worse is he sent the reserves in first!!!!
All this war is about is damn oil. We need to pull our troops out and get them back home where they need to be.
And last, but definetly not least. What is up with Americas Security?? Why in the hell did Bush fly Osamas family out of the states??? He should have left them here and let whatever happens happen. I mean, did the people in Florida who were training these suicide bombers not notice that these fuckers didn't want to learn how to land an airplane or learn how to take off??? Something is seriously wrong here, and it really pisses me off. I don't see all the top dollar people out there giving their lives for a cause that has no purpose. They run and hide and send the little men in to do the dirty work.
Well, I'm through...............like I said, that is just my opinion and ya'll are more than welcome to give me your outlooks on the whole situation.

StaggerLee

07-02-2005, 02:16 AM

The whole thing is totally absurd. They go there, piss UN and europeans off, destroy everything and then come back whining that we (europeans that is) should help them to rebuild the place. I would laugh, but there's nothing funny about people getting killed every day because one man's lust for oil and world domination. I know it's not that black and white, but that's how many people feel and I think it's more accurate to put the blame on Bush rather than the whole nation, since most of Americans were and are against the war...

yourlastmistake

07-02-2005, 02:56 AM

War for oil?:rolleyes:

azathoth777

07-02-2005, 07:22 AM

Originally posted by Babygurl20
This is just my opinion and I wanted to get it out in the open and see if anybody else feels the same way I do. I am so tired of Bush keeping our troops over in Iraq for no reason. We should not be over there at all. They randomly bomb us for no reason and they torture our soldiers when we give their prisoners of war a fucking bed to lay on, food to eat, and a damn roof over their heads. Why should we try to help them when it's obvious they don't want it. Bush's first statement before being re elected was that he would not start a draft. What is the first fucking thing he did when he got in office. Started a draft, and whats worse is he sent the reserves in first!!!!
All this war is about is damn oil. We need to pull our troops out and get them back home where they need to be.
And last, but definetly not least. What is up with Americas Security?? Why in the hell did Bush fly Osamas family out of the states??? He should have left them here and let whatever happens happen. I mean, did the people in Florida who were training these suicide bombers not notice that these fuckers didn't want to learn how to land an airplane or learn how to take off??? Something is seriously wrong here, and it really pisses me off. I don't see all the top dollar people out there giving their lives for a cause that has no purpose. They run and hide and send the little men in to do the dirty work.
Well, I'm through...............like I said, that is just my opinion and ya'll are more than welcome to give me your outlooks on the whole situation.

I agree in general, but on some points...
They randomly bomb us because they hate the US and want us to leave.
They may torture our troops, but we have not been kind to some of theirs either. It was in the news...
Why help them.... if it wasn't for us they wouldn't be in this mess. And it's mostly small groups of extremist fighting and bombing, not the average Iraqi citizen.
Draft... when did he start that. I knew they were trying(and it was Democrats who introduced the bill, not Bush). As far as I knew it had been shot down.

If you really want to be pissed about Bush and such I suggest you read a book called New Pearl Harbor. It's about Bush, 9/11, the Bin Ladens and more. I may not believe every little detail in it, but still, it's very good.

Babygurl20

07-02-2005, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by azathoth777
I agree in general, but on some points...
They randomly bomb us because they hate the US and want us to leave.
They may torture our troops, but we have not been kind to some of theirs either. It was in the news...
Why help them.... if it wasn't for us they wouldn't be in this mess. And it's mostly small groups of extremist fighting and bombing, not the average Iraqi citizen.
Draft... when did he start that. I knew they were trying(and it was Democrats who introduced the bill, not Bush). As far as I knew it had been shot down.

If you really want to be pissed about Bush and such I suggest you read a book called New Pearl Harbor. It's about Bush, 9/11, the Bin Ladens and more. I may not believe every little detail in it, but still, it's very good.

You only helped to bring my point more truth. If they hate us so much, why is Bush leaving them over there??? Why not get them out and bring them home??? Instead, Bush publically states that he will not be pulling our troops out of Iraq for awhile. We have done everything that needs to be done, and all we can do wasn't good enough. So get our troops out of there since they hate us so much. And it was Osama Bin Ladan responsible for 9/11 but we seem to have just forgotten about him. How hard could it be to find a man with a towel on his head hiding under a rock???

azathoth777

07-02-2005, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by Babygurl20
You only helped to bring my point more truth. If they hate us so much, why is Bush leaving them over there??? Why not get them out and bring them home??? Instead, Bush publically states that he will not be pulling our troops out of Iraq for awhile. We have done everything that needs to be done, and all we can do wasn't good enough. So get our troops out of there since they hate us so much. And it was Osama Bin Ladan responsible for 9/11 but we seem to have just forgotten about him. How hard could it be to find a man with a towel on his head hiding under a rock???

Just leave... a country in civil unrest so another Sadam can muscle his way into power. I always thought going to Iraq was a bad idea, and I really would like the troop home, but there are so many other things to consider. Just leaving at this point is as bad as going in the first place.
Find Osama...well you know Iraq was the target from the start. 9/11 and WMDs were convenient excuses.

fannyface

07-02-2005, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by Babygurl20
They randomly bomb us for no reason and they torture our soldiers when we give their prisoners of war a fucking bed to lay on, food to eat, and a damn roof over their heads. .

http://badgas.co.uk/lynndie/

fannyface

07-02-2005, 08:30 AM

sorry, it should have been like this:

Babygurl20

07-02-2005, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by fannyface
http://badgas.co.uk/lynndie/

I do agree that what THAT GROUP of soldiers did was wrong, but you don't see US soldiers putting beheadings on the internet for everyone to see. One of the rules of war is to not torture your POWs, but Al Queda, or whoever just randomly takes a US citiczen or a citizen of another nation and beheads them on the internet. Now that is breaking the rules of war and that is so fucking wrong to begin with.

The STE

07-02-2005, 08:38 AM

well...yeah...but was war ever officially declared, or is this like Vietnam?

Iniquity

07-02-2005, 08:45 AM

Things to make you think a little……

1.There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January…. In the fair city of Chicago there were 35 murders in the month of January. That’s just ONE American City, about as deadly as the entire “war torn” country of Iraq.
2.When some claim President Bush shouldn’t have started this war, remember the following…
a.FDR led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us. Japan did. From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost an average of 112,5000 per year.
b.TRUMAN finished that war and started one with Korea, North Korea never attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,334 per year.
c.JOHN F. KENNEDY started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us. Johnson, turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost an average of 5,800 per year.
d.CLINTON went to war with Bosnia without UN or French consent, Bosnia never attacked us. He was offered Osama bin Laden’s head on a platter three times by the Sudan and did nothing. Osama HAS attacked us on multiple occasions.
3.In the 4 years since terrorists attacked us President Bush has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled the al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.
4.The Democrats are complaining about long the war is taking, but…. It took less time to take Iraq that it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51 day operation.
5.We’ve been looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records.
6.It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to detroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick killing a woman.

NOTHING is worse for a soldier than to hear his/her own people denounce the cause they are sworn to fight. If you dont agree with the cause, *whatever it may be* put that energy into SUPPORTING those men and women and giving them a reason to want to come back home. Dont judge them for the things they have done, yes there are those that act on their own accord, but more times than not, they are ONLY doing as they were ordered. Trying their best to avoid becoming a statistic. Go to woundedwarriorproject.org if you truly care about them. Support them. THEY WILL NEED IT. Even the ones that come back healthy physically will still have some problems. No One can see the things they have seen and endured the horrors they have endured and not have mental problems to some degree afterwards.

Yes there are those out there that hate Bush, guess what? There isnt a damn thing you can do about it and HE knows it. This is his last term, he doesnt have to worry about re-election. Fix the things you can.

The Pope

07-02-2005, 08:50 AM

Yeah. Have fun! :p

bloodrayne

07-02-2005, 09:04 AM

Originally posted by azathoth777
Draft... when did he start that. I knew they were trying(and it was Democrats who introduced the bill, not Bush). As far as I knew it had been shot down.You are correct...There is/was NO draft...And I highly doubt that there ever WILL be again...

Babygurl20

07-02-2005, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by Iniquity
Things to make you think a little……

1.There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January…. In the fair city of Chicago there were 35 murders in the month of January. That’s just ONE American City, about as deadly as the entire “war torn” country of Iraq.
2.When some claim President Bush shouldn’t have started this war, remember the following…
a.FDR led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us. Japan did. From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost an average of 112,5000 per year.
b.TRUMAN finished that war and started one with Korea, North Korea never attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,334 per year.
c.JOHN F. KENNEDY started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us. Johnson, turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost an average of 5,800 per year.
d.CLINTON went to war with Bosnia without UN or French consent, Bosnia never attacked us. He was offered Osama bin Laden’s head on a platter three times by the Sudan and did nothing. Osama HAS attacked us on multiple occasions.
3.In the 4 years since terrorists attacked us President Bush has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled the al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.
4.The Democrats are complaining about long the war is taking, but…. It took less time to take Iraq that it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51 day operation.
5.We’ve been looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records.
6.It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to detroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick killing a woman.

NOTHING is worse for a soldier than to hear his/her own people denounce the cause they are sworn to fight. If you dont agree with the cause, *whatever it may be* put that energy into SUPPORTING those men and women and giving them a reason to want to come back home. Dont judge them for the things they have done, yes there are those that act on their own accord, but more times than not, they are ONLY doing as they were ordered. Trying their best to avoid becoming a statistic. Go to woundedwarriorproject.org if you truly care about them. Support them. THEY WILL NEED IT. Even the ones that come back healthy physically will still have some problems. No One can see the things they have seen and endured the horrors they have endured and not have mental problems to some degree afterwards.

Yes there are those out there that hate Bush, guess what? There isnt a damn thing you can do about it and HE knows it. This is his last term, he doesnt have to worry about re-election. Fix the things you can.

You make some really good points. Thanks for such an insightful view. Thanks for the website info to. I intend to go there, and I do intend to do something about this, even if it is only a small deed.

The STE

07-02-2005, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by bloodrayne
You are correct...There is/was NO draft...And I highly doubt that there ever WILL be again...

Good, cause if there is then I'm hitchhiking my ass to Canada

Iniquity

07-02-2005, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by Babygurl20
You make some really good points. Thanks for such an insightful view. Thanks for the website info to. I intend to go there, and I do intend to do something about this, even if it is only a small deed.

you are quite welcome and you can also go to www.anysoldier.com . this is a website for setting up carepackages for soldiers in the field. most of them cant leave post to aquire the things they need like toilet paper, toothpaste, deodorant etc, and while they have been getting a steady supply of these items the things they really need are things to help them ease their minds. Magazines, DVD's, CD's, CANDY, books, games, *no decks of cards, all of the casino's in the US have made sure they have PLENTY enough of those to go around*, stuff like that.

the flat rate shipping on the boxes is pretty cheap too. you can go to the site and either pick one particular soldier, or just send random ones that can go to anyone *some are there and have no family back home to send them packages*, getting no mail after evening chow is like getting kicked in the nuts, trust me.

ItsAlive75

07-02-2005, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by The STE
Good, cause if there is then I'm hitchhiking my ass to Canada

That's pretty much all you can do... I heard something about America making a deal with Mexico that they would send us back if there was ever a draft... probably bullshit though.

bloodrayne

07-02-2005, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by Babygurl20
Bush's first statement before being re elected was that he would not start a draft. What is the first fucking thing he did when he got in office. Started a draft, and whats worse is he sent the reserves in first!!!!
Do you know what the word 'draft' means?...To 'draft' means to call in citizens who have NOT joined the military, in ANY compacity, to fight for their country...It is only implemented when it is decided that the regular military forces are not enough, and we need additional help

This happened in Vietnam...NOT now...

A person who is in the reserves can NOT be drafted, because they HAVE signed up for military duty (on a sort of 'if needed' basis)...Meaning that they, themselves, have agreed to fight if the regular military forces are not enough

Reserves are only called in when it is decided that the military forces are not enough...Therefore, reserves CAN NOT/WOULD NOT be called in FIRST...They are 'extra' forces...

The only people who have been sent into conflict are the people who joined the military...Meaning that they made a vow to fight and protect their country if there was a war...No one FORCED anyone to fight...They made that decision themselves when they joined...

Not trying to argue...Just educate...Opinions should be based on facts...

fannyface

07-02-2005, 09:38 AM

I quite agree with you there Bloodrayne and i don't understand that when there's so much unjustice and poverty in the world that people want to send the soldiers cds, dvds and fucking candy!

Iniquity

07-02-2005, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by fannyface
i don't understand that when there's so much unjustice and poverty in the world that people want to send the soldiers cds, dvds and fucking candy!

Because they arent fighting 24/7. They *the people you seem to claim are blind to the hmmmm what the hell, unjustice *injustice* and poverty in the world* are attempting to give the soldiers comfort when it is otherwise, not available. Go serve over there, or anywhere for that matter where the conditions are the same, sleep in holes in the ground, clutching your rifle to your chest, prepared to defend yourself in a moments notice and relax all you want. Until you are there, or in a situation similar, dont knock it.

fannyface

07-02-2005, 11:53 AM

[i] Go serve over there [/B]

I might but I've got a dodgy knee

barbra

07-02-2005, 01:18 PM

abbie hoffman

azathoth777

07-08-2005, 06:13 AM

Originally posted by ItsAlive75
That's pretty much all you can do... I heard something about America making a deal with Mexico that they would send us back if there was ever a draft... probably bullshit though.

I think Canada may not let you stay either. Vietnam was a one time thing. I think they would not want to interfere. This isn't the 60's and Vietnam wasn't a 'War On Terror'. Many things have changed.

XFeaRX

07-09-2005, 07:11 AM

XFeaRX

07-09-2005, 07:14 AM

Originally posted by Babygurl20
I do agree that what THAT GROUP of soldiers did was wrong, but you don't see US soldiers putting beheadings on the internet for everyone to see. One of the rules of war is to not torture your POWs, but Al Queda, or whoever just randomly takes a US citiczen or a citizen of another nation and beheads them on the internet. Now that is breaking the rules of war and that is so fucking wrong to begin with.

Only THAT GROUP of Al Quadia (sp?) did the beheadings. Cant judge all of them. US didnt put beheadings on the internet, but where do you think the poster got that pic from?

azathoth777

07-09-2005, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by Babygurl20
I do agree that what THAT GROUP of soldiers did was wrong, but you don't see US soldiers putting beheadings on the internet for everyone to see. One of the rules of war is to not torture your POWs, but Al Queda, or whoever just randomly takes a US citiczen or a citizen of another nation and beheads them on the internet. Now that is breaking the rules of war and that is so fucking wrong to begin with.

What you seem to be forgeting is that these people are not an official army. They belong to no government. They are bound by no rules of war. They're fanatics. They don't care what happens. They just want us to leave at any cost.

barbra

07-09-2005, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by azathoth777
They're fanatics. :confused:

...

Haunted

07-09-2005, 12:08 PM

Very obssessively commited to their world view and/or religion, so much that they believe to be the only righteous.

Hmmm...sounds like another group I know, save they don't have the fire power.

jay o2 waster

07-09-2005, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by The STE
well...yeah...but was war ever officially declared, or is this like Vietnam? oooooooooohhh....'SNAP' !!

Vempire

07-09-2005, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by Babygurl20
This is just my opinion and I wanted to get it out in the open and see if anybody else feels the same way I do. I am so tired of Bush keeping our troops over in Iraq for no reason. We should not be over there at all. They randomly bomb us for no reason and they torture our soldiers when we give their prisoners of war a fucking bed to lay on, food to eat, and a damn roof over their heads. Why should we try to help them when it's obvious they don't want it. Bush's first statement before being re elected was that he would not start a draft. What is the first fucking thing he did when he got in office. Started a draft, and whats worse is he sent the reserves in first!!!!
All this war is about is damn oil. We need to pull our troops out and get them back home where they need to be.
And last, but definetly not least. What is up with Americas Security?? Why in the hell did Bush fly Osamas family out of the states??? He should have left them here and let whatever happens happen. I mean, did the people in Florida who were training these suicide bombers not notice that these fuckers didn't want to learn how to land an airplane or learn how to take off??? Something is seriously wrong here, and it really pisses me off. I don't see all the top dollar people out there giving their lives for a cause that has no purpose. They run and hide and send the little men in to do the dirty work.
Well, I'm through...............like I said, that is just my opinion and ya'll are more than welcome to give me your outlooks on the whole situation.

War is evil. But at times, it can be a NESSESARY EVIL. Had the U.S. forces not intervened in WWII, there's no telling what the final death toll would have been. Moreover, we would most likely still have a very real threat to our civilization in the form of the Third Reich.

I hate people who don't believe in war. So war didn't fix communism, nazism, slavery, and many other things in history?
It didn't gain us freedom from England 230 years ago?

There will always be bloodshed, there will always be strife. . .and there will always be those who, right or wrong, fight to see an end to it.

War is not human nature. It's just NATURE, plain and simple. And none of our advances, sensibilities, or delusions of superiority can ever change that. Like it or not, it's the way of the world. And there is no end in sight.

bloodrayne

07-09-2005, 06:11 PM

I wonder how many people realize that if there was no war...There'd be no America...

Elvis_Christ

07-09-2005, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by bloodrayne
I wonder how many realize that if there was no war...There'd be no America...

Huh?

bloodrayne

07-09-2005, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by Elvis_Christ
Huh? See?...That's my point...People just don't seem to know...This country was founded through war...That's why you and I just celebrated the Fourth of July ;) ...We had to fight for our freedom, for our independence...

I mean...America would have still been here, of course...but WE wouldn't...

Tat2

07-09-2005, 10:31 PM

Regardless of how you feel about war, regardless of your opinion on our presence in Iraq, it is of the utmost impotance that you support our troops now. This is something that personally effects me because I have a Stepson that is in the Army and ships out to Iraq in August. I have two Stepsons that are in Basic Training now and one of them will more than likely ship over there as well.

I have several friends that were in Vietnam and the "reception" that they got when they returned screwed with them more than the actual action of the War.

It's a Soldiers' duty to fight a war, its the U.S. Citizens duty to support the Service Men and Women whole-heartedly before, during and after the war.

bloodrayne

07-09-2005, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by Tat2
It's a Soldiers' duty to fight a war, its the U.S. Citizens duty to support the Service Men and Women whole-heartedly before, during and after the war. That's just about the best/truest thing that I've read in this entire thread....And Iniquity had some DAMNED good stuff ;) :cool:

Iniquity

07-10-2005, 05:32 AM

The average age of the Infantryman is 19 years. He is a short haired, tight-muscled kid who, under normal circumstances is considered by society as half man, half boy. Not yet dry behind the ears, not old enough to buy a beer, but old enough to die for his country. He never really cared much for work and he would rather wax his own car than wash his father's; but he has never collected unemployment either. He's a recent High School graduate; he was probably an average student, pursued some form of sport activities, drives a ten year old jalopy, and has a steady girlfriend that either broke up with him when he left, or swears to be waiting when he returns from half a world away. He listens to rock and roll or hip-hop or rap or jazz or swing and 155mm Howitzers.

He is 10 or 15 pounds lighter now than when he was at home because he is working or fighting from before dawn to well after dusk. He has trouble spelling, thus letter writing is a pain for him, but he can field strip a rifle in 30 seconds and reassemble it in less time in the dark. He can recite to you the nomenclature of a machine gun or grenade launcher and use either one effectively if he must. He digs foxholes and latrines and can apply first aid like a professional. He can march until he is told to stop or stop until he is told to march. He obeys orders instantly and without hesitation, but he is not without spirit or individual dignity.

He is self-sufficient. He has two sets of fatigues: he washes one and wears the other. He keeps his canteens full and his feet dry. He sometimes forgets to brush his teeth, but never to clean his rifle. He can cook his own meals, mend his own clothes, and fix his own hurts. If you're thirsty, he'll share his water with you; if you are hungry, his food. He'll even split his ammunition with you in the midst of battle when you run low.

He has learned to use his hands like weapons and weapons like they were his hands. He can save your life - or take it, because that is his job. He will often do twice the work of a civilian, draw half the pay and still find ironic humor in it all. He has seen more suffering and death than he should have in his short lifetime. He has stood atop mountains of dead bodies, and helped to create them. He has wept in public and in private, for friends who have fallen in combat and is unashamed.

He feels every note of the National Anthem vibrate through his body while at rigid attention, while tempering the burning desire to 'square-away' those around him who haven't bothered to stand, remove their hat, or even stop talking. In an odd twist, day in and day out, far from home, he defends their right to be disrespectful.

Just as did his Father, Grandfather, and Great-grandfather, he is paying the price for our freedom.

Beardless or not, he is not a boy.

He is the American Fighting Man that has kept this country FREE for over 200 years.

He has asked nothing in return, except our friendship and understanding. He is only doing his JOB. Remember him, always, for he has earned our respect and admiration with his blood, sweat and tears.

The next time you curl up on your bed with the ac cranked up, soft pillow to lay on, stomach is not growling from hunger and right before you fall safely asleep, ask yourself 2 questions………

What is that “kid” doing right now?

Would you have the testicular fortitude and conviction such as he, to put your life on the line, knowing that at any moment an RPG rocket could tear you a new ass, or worse, after all is said and done, he could quite possibly return HOME to the same nightmare as the soldiers of Vietnam branded with names like "baby killer", "murderer"?

Haunted

07-10-2005, 05:47 AM

Go! Wow!

How elegant and powerful. Not that it matters, but did you write that, Iniquity? It was beautiful.

I had a friend from college go into Iraq. I sent him with my raven's pendant that I got in Ireland. He wore it too. He's home now, and will not (hopefully) have to go back.

Thanks for writing that, Iniquity. It was really great.

Iniquity

07-10-2005, 06:20 AM

Originally posted by Haunted
Go! Wow!

How elegant and powerful. Not that it matters, but did you write that, Iniquity? It was beautiful.

I had a friend from college go into Iraq. I sent him with my raven's pendant that I got in Ireland. He wore it too. He's home now, and will not (hopefully) have to go back.

Thanks for writing that, Iniquity. It was really great.

While I would love to take credit for it, I did not write it. I do not know the author, but they could'nt possibly have their eyes more wide open to see such things so vividly and be able to express them into words so powerful.

The only part I added at the end was the questions.

Haunted

07-10-2005, 09:53 AM

Well, thanks for sharing it, all the same. It was a really powerful read.:)

bloodrayne

07-10-2005, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by Haunted
Well, thanks for sharing it, all the same. It was a really powerful read.:) I have to agree...That was excellent...As well as insightful

HappyCamper

07-10-2005, 07:07 PM

Let me just say one thing:

A war on terrorism, is an war that is completely unwinable.

There will always be terrorist, and that is what George W. Bush can't seem to understand. He thinks this is a war, that he can win.

There will always be people who hate us (Americans) because of our freedoms.

If George W. Bush wanted to start a war, he should have started it with Saudia Arabia, not Iraq! The Bush family has always been buddy buddy with the Saudis, and if you do you're research these are the exact people who have been funding muslim extremist! and why have they been buddy buddy with Saudia Arabia, becausee of oil! that's why! GWB is nothing but a greedy oil hungry madman, who cares nothing for the people of his own country, he just wants more oil, which in turn gives him more money!

So if you wanna catch the worst terrorist in the world, you should begin looking at the White House! George W. Bush should be impeached, and not only that but all of his staff should be thrown out on the street as well!

Ok, well i said more than one thing, but I just had to get that off my back.

AUSTIN316426808

07-10-2005, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by HappyCamper
Let me just say one thing:

A war on terrorism, is an war that is completely unwinable.

There will always be terrorist, and that is what George W. Bush can't seem to understand. He thinks this is a war, that he can win.

There will always be people who hate us (Americans) because of our freedoms.

So what you're saying is we should just let the fuckers get away with it and not do anything?

HappyCamper

07-10-2005, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by AUSTIN316426808
So what you're saying is we should just let the fuckers get away with it and not do anything?

Of course, we shouldn't just stand by and do nothing! but what I am saying is this:

that instead of wasting our time with Iraq, which in my opinion had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 unlike George W. Bush claims. We should be going after Al-Qaeda and Osamba Bin Laden, which most of the country has seemed to forget is who attacked us!

I will agree that is good that we removed Sadam from power, but he wasn't the one that attacked us! There has even been proof that Iraq has never had the capability to attack us, he was just a ruthless dicator over his own people!

What you have to realise is that they're will always be people who hate us, and attack the innocent. It is impossible to rid the world of terrorist. As soon as you get rid of one terrorist group another will rise. It's just a vicious circle.

AUSTIN316426808

07-10-2005, 08:11 PM

They're still finding Al-Qaeda members, every month or so you hear about another few guys they've caught.

They can't get the shit done all at one time and if Bin-Laden is hiding somewhere in one of the God knows how many caves over there then they aren't going to find him anytime soon.

Some people seem to forget that there are still troops over there as well as Iraq and that they aren't going to bring down an entire terrorist organization all at once. And I also don't see the problem with bringing down another terrorist, it's called the war on terror and Saddam was a terrorist.

People keep saying the war is about oil and there's no weapons but what nobody seems to think about is that they literally found Saddam in a hole in the ground, I obviously can't be sure about this but I'd put my money on it that there's more than just that one. Who knows maybe there's weapons in those holes, hell maybe Bin Laden is in one of those holes.

HappyCamper

07-10-2005, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by AUSTIN316426808
They're still finding Al-Qaeda members, every month or so you hear about another few guys they've caught.

They can't get the shit done all at one time and if Bin-Laden is hiding somewhere in one of the God knows how many caves over there then they aren't going to find him anytime soon.

Some people seem to forget that there are still troops over there as well as Iraq and that they aren't going to bring down an entire terrorist organization all at once. And I also don't see the problem with bringing down another terrorist, it's called the war on terror and Saddam was a terrorist.

People keep saying the war is about oil and there's no weapons but what nobody seems to think about is that they literally found Saddam in a hole in the ground, I obviously can't be sure about this but I'd put my money on it that there's more than just that one. Who knows maybe there's weapons in those holes, hell maybe Bin Laden is in one of those holes.

I never expected them to be able to cripple Al-Qaeda over night, and you're right every so often you do hear about, another member being caught. And you could be right, Bin Laden could be hiding in a hole in the ground somewhere or in a cave.

My basic point that I was trying to get across is this:

That we should go after terrorist groups aggressively, but that as we do this, we should realise that we can't expect to totally eliminate terrorist all together. This is a fight that we need to always fight, but it's a fight that has no ending and clearly no winner.

bloodrayne

07-10-2005, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by HappyCamper
instead of wasting our time with Iraq, which in my opinion had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 unlike George W. Bush claims. We should be going after Al-Qaeda and Osamba Bin Laden, which most of the country has seemed to forget is who attacked us!It has been proven that Sadam was helping to finance Al-Qaeda as well as other terrorist organizations...There's your link...

If you want to kill a snake, you have to cut off its head...

Originally posted by HappyCamper
I will agree that is good that we removed Sadam from powerAnd...BECAUSE we removed Sadam from power, which left Iraq with no ruler (no control) whatsoever, and allowed the extremists and terrorists to try to gain control of the country, and basically wreak havok and run wild unchecked, we felt it was OUR responsibility to stay and help them to establish their OWN government (free from extremism, and one that would work with and for their people), and to help them fight off the insurgents that felt the country was 'free reign' after Sadam was removed, while building and training their own army so that in the future they could handle these things by themselves...We stayed...And I believe that our soldiers WILL remain there, until Iraq can 'take care' of itself...

Originally posted by HappyCamper
There has even been proof that Iraq has never had the capability to attack us, he was just a ruthless dicator over his own people!!That's just silly...Sadam had FAR more capability, money, and power to attack us, than Bin Laden did...If Bin Laden attacked us, so could anyone else...That's why they ALL have to be stopped...

Originally posted by AUSTIN316426808
People keep saying the war is about oil and there's no weapons but what nobody seems to think about is that they literally found Saddam in a hole in the ground, I obviously can't be sure about this but I'd put my money on it that there's more than just that one. Who knows maybe there's weapons in those holes, hell maybe Bin Laden is in one of those holes. The weapons WERE there...Sadam used them on his own people...There's no denying that...

BUT...I doubt that they would be there NOW when Sadam's allies included MANY countries that harbor terrorists and owe Sadam tons of money, as well as many favors...If you think that shit hasn't been passed through Syria...You have to be completely uninformed...

HappyCamper

07-10-2005, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by bloodrayne
It has been proven that Sadam was helping to finance Al-Queda as well as other terrorist organizations...There's your link...

If you want to kill a snake, you have to cut off its head...

And...BECAUSE we removed Sadam from power, which left Iraq with no ruler (no control) whatsoever, and allowed the extremists and terrorists to try to gain control of the country, and basically wreak havok and run wild unchecked, we felt it was OUR responsibility to stay and help them to establish their OWN government (free from extremism, and one that would work with and for their people), and to help them fight off the insurgents that felt the country was 'free reign' after Sadam was removed, while building and training their own army so that in the future they could handle these things by themselves...We stayed...And I believe that our soldiers WILL remain there, until Iraq can 'take care' of itself...

That's just silly...Sadam had FAR more capability, money, and power to attack us, than Bin Laden did...If Bin Laden attacked us, so could anyone else...That's why they ALL have to be stopped...

The weapons WERE there...Sadam used them on his own people...There's no denying that...

BUT...I doubt that they would be there NOW when Sadam's allies included MANY countries that harbor terrorists and owe Sadam tons of money, as well as many favors...If you think that shit hasn't been passed through Syria...You have to be completely uninformed...

First off Osama Bin Laden is a Billionare, he wouldn't need financial backing in order to carry out acts of terror. Also as far as WMD, we haven't found any! We have found that he has killed his own people, that is true. I'm glad that we got him out of power, but connecting him to 9/11 , that's the lie that Bush has gotten people to believe.

AUSTIN316426808

07-10-2005, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by bloodrayne

The weapons WERE there...Sadam used them on his own people...There's no denying that...

BUT...I doubt that they would be there NOW when Sadam's allies included MANY countries that harbor terrorists and owe Sadam tons of money, as well as many favors...If you think that shit hasn't been passed through Syria...You have to be completely uninformed...

That's basically what I was trying to say....that everybody is just stuck on this oil theory when there are all sorts of way Sadam coulda got 'em out of there. I don't understand why so many people jumped to a negative conclusion, I remember just months after they'd went into Iraq people were asking questions about and doubting that there were weapons.

You can believe whatever you want to believe the reason for the war in Iraq to be but I don't see what's so bad about getting rid of a terrorist/violent dictator,liberating a country and helping them set up their own government and army.

bloodrayne

07-10-2005, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by HappyCamper
First off Osama Bin Laden is a Billionare, he wouldn't need financial backing in order to carry out acts of terror. Also as far as WMD, we haven't found any! We have found that he has killed his own people, that is true. I'm glad that we got him out of power, but connecting him to 9/11 , that's the lie that Bush has gotten people to believe. Whether Bin Laden NEEDED Sadam's support or not, he still had it...Also, immediately following the 9/11 attacks...ALL of Bin Laden's financial resources were cut off (and still are)...That's where Sadam's support helped him the most...Terrorism and weapons are VERY expensive ;)...

And by the way...I don't believe ANYONE...I form my OWN opinions, based solely on facts...

AUSTIN316426808

07-10-2005, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by HappyCamper
Also as far as WMD, we haven't found any!

So what's your point?

He coulda moved 'em, they might be hidden.

Why do so many people want to jump to the negative conclusion, like I just said in my previous post I remember just months after the invasion people were saying the same thing you have to give stuff time. The soldiers aren't just over there looking 24/7 they also have to worry about bombs,bullets going by their heads ect. ect.

bloodrayne

07-10-2005, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by AUSTIN316426808
So what's your point?

He coulda moved 'em, they might be hidden.

Why do so many people want to jump to the negative conclusion, like I just said in my previous post I remember just months after the invasion people were saying the same thing you have to give stuff time. The soldiers aren't just over there looking 24/7 they also have to worry about bombs,bullets going by their heads ect. ect. Oh...But we HAVE found (and destroyed) very small caches of chemical weapons, and components that can be used to make WMDs...And these very small caches, have been found in some very LARGE places (many underground)...There's no way that there wasn't much more that had been removed before we got there...You don't build an entire candy store to sell one candy bar ;)

bloodrayne

07-10-2005, 09:08 PM

BTW...I just wanted to say that I love the fact that we can have this discussion (debate) in a civil and intelligent manner...Perhaps things are changing at Horror.com...

Nah...I seriously doubt it...:p :D

HappyCamper

07-10-2005, 09:17 PM

There will always be terrorism/terrorists, even now that Sadam is out of power, even as Al-Qaeda begins to crumble apart. Terrorism is a war that has to be fought, but it's a war with no end. Terrorism has been around forever. The Romans slaughetered Christians, the Nazi's slaughtered the Jews, Whites put blacks into slavery, the KKK burn crosses, the IRA set off car bombs. These are all forms of terrorism. There will always be hatred, and that hatred will always breed forms of terrorism and terrorist.

AUSTIN316426808

07-10-2005, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by bloodrayne
Oh...But we HAVE found (and destroyed) very small caches of chemical weapons, and components that can be used to make WMDs...And these very small caches, have been found in some very LARGE places (many underground)...There's no way that there wasn't much more that had been removed before we got there...You don't build an entire candy store to sell one candy bar ;)

Now that I didn't hear(I admit..I don't watch the news as much as I should) but until they pull a nuc out in front of the CNN cameras everybody's going to be stuck on the ''oil'' thing.

AUSTIN316426808

07-10-2005, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by HappyCamper
There will always be terrorism/terrorists, even now that Sadam is out of power, even as Al-Qaeda begins to crumble apart. Terrorism is a war that has to be fought, but it's a war with no end. Terrorism has been around forever. The Romans slaughetered Christians, the Nazi's slaughtered the Jews, Whites put blacks into slavery, the KKK burn crosses, the IRA set off car bombs. These are all forms of terrorism. There will always be hatred, and that hatred will always breed forms of terrorism and terrorist.

This maybe true but when Iraq has it's government in place and ready to take over with a military then it will be much easier to ex-spell terrorist from their country whenever they arise.

HappyCamper

07-10-2005, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by AUSTIN316426808
This maybe true but when Iraq has it's government in place and ready to take over with a military then it will be much easier to ex-spell terrorist from their country whenever they arise.

I definitely agree with you on that, unfortunately it is still going to be a long time before Iraq is going to be capable of that, on their own. And I do agree, it would be bad to just leave the country as it is currently. I just pray and hope that our troops will be safe and be able to come home as soon as possible.

bloodrayne

07-10-2005, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by AUSTIN316426808
Now that I didn't hear(I admit..I don't watch the news as much as I should) but until they pull a nuc out in front of the CNN cameras everybody's going to be stuck on the ''oil'' thing. Like I said...Only very SMALL caches, we blew up a few barrels, stuff like that...Apparently not very worthy or worth talking about much...Especially if you're trying to hold onto the rhetoric that 'There's NOTHING there' :rolleyes:

As for the 'oil' thing...I don't wanna even go INTO that...Let's just say that it has to do with the 'Oil For Food' program, that was SUPPOSED to be monitored by the UN (in which they failed MISERABLY), most of the profits were being funneled to Sadam (as well as others) and NOT to the people for whom it was intended, so we suggested that WE control the program, since the UN obviously couldn't handle it...And, that caused us to look like we were trying to 'take over the oil'...I KNOW I'm gonna get called out on that one, because there's a WHOLE lot more to it, that's just my quick rundown on it in a nutshell....So, for those who wish to FULLY enlighten me on the finer aspects of this subject, I already know, I just don't wanna drag it all out here...There are MANY facets to this particular debate...

zwoti

07-10-2005, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by bloodrayne
BTW...I just wanted to say that I love the fact that we can have this discussion (debate) in a civil and intelligent manner...Perhaps things are changing at Horror.com...

hmm politics....

*walks out of the thread forever

bloodrayne

07-10-2005, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by zwoti
hmm politics....

*walks out of the thread forever Nope...Nothing's changed...lol

EXTR3MIST

07-11-2005, 02:55 PM

I do agree that what THAT GROUP of soldiers did was wrong, but you don't see US soldiers putting beheadings on the internet for everyone to see. One of the rules of war is to not torture your POWs, but Al Queda, or whoever just randomly takes a US citiczen or a citizen of another nation and beheads them on the internet. Now that is breaking the rules of war and that is so fucking wrong to begin with

Since the notorious beheading videos were faked, could this move not be interpreted as simple propaganda for the Iraqi militants?

Granted, the victims were still killed, but not in the footage available on the internet - the casual sawing off of live heads with kitchen knives is so ridiculous it takes only a casual glance to realise the hostages have been killed under different (probably more "humane") circumstances.

One must conclude the makers of the videos - most of them appeared to have the same production team - wanted to convey a more barbaric and fearsome militia to the rest of the world.

Gren the cake

07-11-2005, 02:58 PM

its probably been said... but whether or not you think we shuold be there, we are and we cant just pull em out

theres gona be troops ther that are all about fightin, and then theres gonna be those ones that are against it but guess what.. are stuck.

support em, pray, whatever.. stay informed.. all we can do.

and yeh.. what those few soldiers did to the prisoners was BAD, extremely poor judgment.. but gues what? thats a FEW people. in this case, a few bad eggs DONT spoil the bunch. also, uve got to think about what thes epeopel r going through. cuz id hafto say yeh, id probably try and fuck around a bit with some people who want to kill me simply for being me...

meetthecreeper

07-11-2005, 07:09 PM

Saddam attacked and murdered his own peeps. His bastard sons did unspeakable things to women and so on.

The United Nations sat there, yucked it up with their backroom deals in the oil for food program and sat around while Saddam was committing genocide.

Terrorists have been coming from all over the middle east now since the mid 70s.

Where the FUCK would you like us to begin???

And some people want to sit around and say that the whole reason we went over to Iraq was for OIL???? Are people really that stupid??

I am no big fan of Bush, he is really starting to piss me off, but not for reasons that you would think. I think we really need to stop with this kinder gentler war ethic and just start kickin ass.

Sorry folks but these FUCKERS dont understand anything else. You cant reason with them, or appease them or buy them a fucking milkshake.

What you have to do is KILL KILL KILL. All of them. It is really sad that I have to say some thing like this but there is no other option.