Rage Against the Machine rips off Carpenter???

[NirvanaNole]

I'll start by explaining my feelings to Rage. I had their second CD years ago. When I saw their politics hanging the American flag upside down with crap on it, and I read some of the utter bullshit and lies Zach wrote and said, I told myself I'd never buy anything from them again. Well, once Zach's pussy ass quit, the remaining members formed Audioslave with Chris Cornell (Soundgarden singer). I bought Audioslave's cd since I was a HUGE Tom Morello fan (Rage and Audioslave guitarist) fan. I got into his guitar play so much, I decided to put my feelings to Zack aside and bought Rage's first album.

The guitar work was amazing. I absolutely loved it and was mad at myself for never buying it. After that I looked for "The Battle of Los Angeles" album. Well, I live in Tuscaloosa, Alabama (suckssss!), and I couldn't find a copy for months. I finally found it Tuesday night when I went to buy LOTR box set, Primus, and some other cds. I put it in, and I was BLOWN away by Tom's guitar playing on this album. However, one song stuck in my head from the moment I heard it. Track 11, "Ashes in the Fall," made me think of the music from past Halloween movies. I haven't put in my dvds to see if it is the same, but I swear Tom's guitar is playing a funky version lifted from the Halloween series.

Is anyone a fan of Rage and Halloween and thought of this? I don't know if I'm nuts or not, but I SWEAR it could pass for an updated version of Halloween! All you have to do is hear the intro to the song. Outside of that riff, the rest is nothing like Halloween; however, the song KICKS ASS!

I was seeing if anyone else has noticed this.

On another note, anyone that loves guitar will love all of Rage's albums if you don't have them. My God Morello is a God!!!!!!

[mudsliptones]

morello isn't a god, he's just pure originality
his style is so weird that he's like the only person that plays like that
but to call him a god, mmmmm, I can name better ones, like most obvious, jimmy hendrix

bute rage is really good, but audioslave isn't my thing

[NirvanaNole]

Mud,

It is possible to have more than just one guitar God IMO. Originality is what establishes one's place in that category. Tom can play virtually any guitar riff ever written, and he has invented guitar sounds no one else has come close to playing. He is easily the most original guitarist since Stevie Ray/Van Halen, although I still prefer Slash's solos over his any day.




Damn, since no one else has replied, I guess I'm the only one that noticed the similarity between "Ashes in the Fall" and Halloween. :confused:

[Arioch]

Original?yes i gotta give that to tom. God? hmmm, sorry. Hes good, dont get me wrong but i dont think 10 years from now there is gonna be anyone claiming "Tom Morello changed guitar playing forever". Guitar gods, are musicians that can not only make an original sound, but can make music that stands the test of time. Jimmy Page, Jimmy Hindrix, Eric Clapton, these are guitar gods in my opinion. Don't get me wrong Tom IS a great musician and no one really sounds like him, but he didnt really change rock, or guitar playing all that much.

Audioslave is a bitt overrated too i think, i do really like rage tho.
My $0.02.

Oh yeah, ill download that song. I know the halloween theme note for note, even the bassline. Ill listen for it and get back to ya.

[Arioch]

Hey Nirvana, i got it and listened to it. The first 2 notes he pivits to are the exact same. But after that, he goes up to a different note, sustains it, then goes higher, and sustains that. Thats much different. The thing that i did notice is that riff is almost the EXACT same rhythm. Thats whats makes it sound like halloween's theme so much. When you put the first 2 notes of halloween with the exact same rhythm, lol, it does kinda sound like a rippoff. But the rest of the song is totally different and since its really just the begining of that riff that sounds like it i gotta so no, he probably didnt rip it off, and if he did he was pretty classy about it.

Kickass song tho, nice thread too.

[NirvanaNole]

Thanks Arioch. I knew it sounded really familiar. I haven't watched any of the Halloween movies in a while so I wasn't sure. I wonder if he was inspired by the Halloween theme when he came up with the song, though. I guess only he knows.

I'm curious. What do yall to define a guitar God as?

Arioch, the test of time requirement you stated seems misplaced IMO. What is the test of time? How long does one have to last to reach that level? The artists you stated all started in their the 60s or early 70s. It has been over 30 years since each of those guitarist first recorded an album.

And with your comment about not changing rock, Tom Pettey has been quoted saying Cobain/Nirvana was the most influential music since the Beatles. Assuming that is true (you probably don't agree, obviously), would that make Cobain a great guitarist? How about Lennon/Harrison from the Beatles?

I'm sure you can see where I am leading this questioning to. I probably gave up my sinister plan by using examples before you defined what a guitar God is in your opinion. :D

[Arioch]

Ok, well for the record lets make sure that this is all opinion and ill state that i can like a guitarist, and often do, without thinking they are great. I like Nirvana, as you mentioned, we can all state, and its pretty much fact, that nirvana changed music. They took us from 80s pop and duran duran to grundge. They changed everything, but Kurt really isnt that great of a guitarist. Original ya sure, but hes just not in the league of the greats, IMO.Same with John Lennon one of the great musicians of our time?? without a doubt! Guitar God??hmmm not really. Just an incredibly talented songwriter.

Same with tom, dont get me wrong i like his style alot. Its totally different making it sound like a turn table etc. But to be a guitar GOD, to me, you have to have more than that.

But i guess if you boil it down the question of who's a guitar god is just as person and opinion oriented as what kind of music do you like, and everyones gonna have they're own.

[NirvanaNole]

Originally posted by Arioch
But i guess if you boil it down the question of who's a guitar god is just as person and opinion oriented as what kind of music do you like, and everyones gonna have they're own.

You're a politician, aren't ya? :D

What is your definition? I'm curious. Obviously everyone has their own opinion on it, but I'm curious to know how you define it to include those you mentioned, but not Tom. Jeff Beck, who you mentioned, isn't exactly the most influential guitarist of all time, nor is he particularly prolific in pure playing ability.

I guarantee you Morello could play Beck under the table with a clean electric guitar and no effects. Morello was a speed metal nut back in the day in LA with many other guys. He got tired of it since it had been done and decided to create a new sound. That does more for me than Steve Vai, Eric Johnson (more bluesy, I admit), etc.

But I digress. Who since '78 (believe that was Van Halen's first album, Eddie's a gimmie on any guitar player's list) would you consider in your own guitar God category? Not a flame or anything, but I'm curious.

[Arioch]

You're a politician, aren't ya?

Lol, ya that was a total politician last line wasnt it. You got me.

Well, the one thing i really think makes a good guitarist(and honestly i cant claim this theory on my own, my classical guitar teacher told me this and i kinda suscribe to the concept) is not Maximum Notes Per Second (thus Eddie isnt on my list at ALL) but their ability to make a solo exactly fit into a song. Like the solo has to be there or the song is right ya know. Tom is pretty good at this, in fact, I dont think any of the Rage songs would be half as good with any other guitarist. For example: Bulls On Parade, now we both know that the intro to that song is 2 notes (1 actually its an octave up) but he makes those notes kick so much ass your instantly hooked on the song from the start. THEN, he breaks out that wah pedal and with 1 chord makes they'r most famous riff. Classic hit. Thats what i really look for in a good guitarist.

Thats funny this starting off as a argument against Tom being a guitar GOD and now its turning around.:confused:

Anyway, a great example of this is David Gilmour of Pink Floyd fame. He knows how to write a solo so every note feals exactly right in the song where he can take you through highs and lows just by his guitar playing (listen to the outro solo to Comfortably Numb) Not comparing him to Tom or anything, way too different styles, just using him as an example to demonstrate my criteria for guitar divinity.

My own personal list? Thats tougher, most of the guitarist ive called masters i dont even like. Most of the guitarist i really enjoy are classical ones but im pretty sure we're sticking to the Rock genre. Im with you on Stevie and Eric Johnson, i really cant get into shit that bluesy. Just not my thing. You cant deny their influence tho.So i guess ill just give ya a couple that really inspire me and keep it that vague.;)

Dimebag Darrel (i love his combination of blues and metal riffs, and he does some crazy chord progressions, The Great Southern Trendkill is one of the best metal albums of all time IMO)
David Gilmour (uhhh already talked about him lol)
Scott Putesky( a little known guitarist that worked with Trent Reznor on Manson very first album. What tom does with pickscrapes and slides Scott does with harmonics and feedback. Hes truly spastic integrating insane blues riffs with full frett board harmonics. Checkout the "cake and sodomy", "wrapped in plastic", "dopehat", and "lunchbox", if you can get past manson's gimmick lyrics, just listen to the guitar on that album. Youll be amazed.) Thats pretty much what gets me going, damn this post is long. Better quit now.

[Arioch]

OMG cant believe i forgot one of my favorite guitarist of all time!:eek:

Jerry Cantrell of alice in chains. Listen to his solos to "over now", "Down in a hole", "rotten apple", "NUTSHELL" (i absolutely love this one), "Got me wrong" and "stay away" Goddamn they were so badass. I really miss those guys.

[NirvanaNole]

Okay. I'll come up with a better reply tomorrow or Sunday since I'm wasted, but I couldn't resist this. How in the WORLD is Dimebag in there with what you've stated in this thread???????? I'm not a huge Pantera guy, but I at least own their greatest hits and like many of those songs. Dimebag doesn't have a tenth of Tom's originality, hasn't played any riff Tom can't, hasn't sold anywhere NEAR the records (counting sales per record) that Tom's bands have, didn't inspire that much in the metal scene while Rage basically created the current "hip-hop rock scene," and many other categories I could break down Dimebag can't touch Tom in.

How in the world does any Pantera music stand the "test of time," my friend? ;)

Rage's music will be remember by critics, fans, and everyone else LONG AFTER Pantera is gone. That one threw me for a loop, I must admit.



I'm a HUGE AIC and Cantrell fan. The only problem I have with him, and this applies with Dimebag/Panetra as well, is the fact many of their songs have some of the most basic and generic guitar recording sound I've ever heard. That is one thing that always bothered me with AIC. Pearl Jam/Corigan (both of his bands) seemed to move from distinct sounds to that generic, cheap sound in the latter part of their careers. I always hated that. I like guitars to have a distinct sound (Hendrix, Van Halen, Nirvana, AC/DC, Creed, etc.). I LOVE hearing every note of the guitar. I hate that cheap recording sound that AIC/Pantera used on some of their songs, and later in their careers Pearl Jam/Coragen/STP/etc. also used.


By the way, I was classically trained in HS as well. I've forgotten most of that, but wish I still had a classic guitar. I always loved playing those nylon strings. I do hate how much wider the guitar neck is, though. I haven't played my guitar much the past couple of years (hand and finger problems), but I may pick it back up and start a band after graduation. I hate the law, and any normal job for that matter, to make a long career at being a lawyer lol.


P.S. I'm still surprised of who you included and who you didn't (Tom/Eddie). Both of those guys could play most of the other guys you mentioned under the table on pure ability. And if you mean influence, EVH blows away everyone you listed. And as far as orginality, EVH and Tom both were more original in their times than anyone you listed. :p ;)

[Arioch]

Man come ON!!!! Eddie can play fast...........and thats about it. If thats your criteria for a great musician list to randy rhoads NOT van halen im sorry but that is the most 80s unoriginal sound ive ever heard!! everyone of their songs sounds EXACTLY the same, horrible chords (JUMP lol oh god) then enter eddies obnoxious playing. Man i just cant stand guitarist like that.

Now on to dimebag, he uses unusuall chords if you own the greats hits you can see what im talking about. Listen to the middle solo in "cemetary gates" when i walks it up further and further untill he pinch harmonics it down, gets that airplaine effect, to the main hardcore riff. Thats 1000x more original than say Hot for teacher. Granted were not going to see eye to eye on this and your obviously more into who can play faster and technique when i see the song as a whole and guitarist using solos to advertise themselves (i.e. eddie) than the song as a whole.

I think thats y your seeing them as better musicians, and technically they maybe, eddie may very well be able to play 3x as fast as dimebag or jerry but i think i good soloist is one that can fit their solo into the song rather than play uber fast saying look at me!! Im more refering to eddie here.

And i think you took that last post wrong, lol, i didnt claim those guys were guitar GODS like you think tom is. I just said the "inspired me". i left it vague so i wouldnt get flamed but oh well.:rolleyes:

Im not trying to say dime is a better musician or compare who to what, i just said they inspire me. And original sounds?? ya im with you about Tom on this one, he truly does some original work. But NOTHING about Eddie is original. True there are some diehard fans and their music will live on, probably for a while but original sorry. Tom on the other hand, ya the kinda did start the rap rock thing, too bad it was killed by Limp Bizkit, linkin park and the shit we're inondated with today. But ya Rage will be remembered, Audioslave??? probably not, their music is mundane and a pale shadow of what rage was and what rage stood for.

Rage's music will be remember by critics, fans, and everyone else LONG AFTER Pantera is gone.

Man this is total hersay, you have no idea who'll be remembered for what, you predicting the future here?? come on man, you forget that rage got ALOT of radio play and MTV coverage.
Pantera got shit, you'll never see a pantera video on mtv (except once on a beavis and butthead episode lol) and they get basically no radio play at all and they still sell albums. Bulls on Parade and People of the Sun, along with hits like Testify got round the clock airplay on mtv2 and mtv. I sure hope they sell a bit more than pantera because their being marketed quite differently. Pantera had to do it on their own and i respect that.

Now i didnt want this to turn into a pissing match man, in fact this thread is starting to degrade quite rapidly, i respected your opinion on guitarist alot more when you just refered to Tom as a guitar god but Eddie??? Im sorry but your never gonna convience me that someone who wrote Jump, Hot for teacher, and other 80s hits (someone who should be in say Montley Crues league) belongs next to true legends like Hindrix, Beck, Clapton, Vahn, and Page.

[mudsliptones]

dimebag darrell......he rules

[Arioch]

dimebag darrell......he rules

THANK YOU!, finally someone backs me up.

[avenger00soul]

Dimebag does kick a fair amount of ass--he plays on the last several Anthrax records.:D

By the way, Audioslave and Queens of the Stone Age are the best thing going in mainstream rock right now. I love both of those bands.

[NirvanaNole]

Arioch,

Sorry it took so long to reply. I was out of town and now getting caught up for my finals. Now on to my reply...

Well, I didn't think it was a pissing match. I think you must have taken things a tad too seriously. ;)

You still haven't defined the criteria for a guitar God. Read your initial post. You dismissed Morello because he didn't change guitar playing around the world, and then you ignore the most influential guitarist, Eddie Van Halen, to the masses since Jimmy Page. All the two handing tapping that has gone on since him is directly influenced by him. Eddie can do things on guitar that no one else can. "Eruption" alone puts him in the guitar God category.

I do like how you listen only certain singles Van Halen released. If you heard his acoustic guitar playing on VH III (the album with that Cherone as the singer), you'd shit. I have no idea if you can find these songs to DLed, but try to find "Neworld" and "Year to the Day." If you can find those, and then come back here and tell me he can't play Dimebag under the table, I'd be shocked. And when you listen to "Neworld," remember Eddie is playing the keyboard on that song as well. He is a very good pianist.

And I dare you to listen to "Right Now" and tell me that isn't an incredibly written piece of music. There is great piano and guitar work in that song by Eddie.

Also, I know you probably don't have access to this, but if you do, check out the live version of "316" off Van Halen Live. It is Eddie performing an instrumental solo for about 12 mintues. About the 2:50 minute mark, enjoy. If you can seriously reply that he is not a great guitarist after hearing that, I'm going to question your sanity. ;)

I am a Dimebag fan, but he can't handle Eddie and he has admitted so. Odd he is a VH fan, huh? :b

Go back and listen to Rhodes, Dimebag, etc. When you hear them doing two handed taping during a solo, remember the first person, Eddie, that made it an art form. ;)

I love Randy Rhodes, by the way.

I wouldn't have dissected the guitarists you listed had I known you were meaning only those who influenced you. I thought you were saying you considered them guitar Gods. I could list several guitarist that influenced me, but that are not guitar Gods.

You said, "I think thats y your seeing them as better musicians." I was merely talking about guitar ability, not their overall musical ability. If that was the case, many artists that can't play their instrument at a high level (Lennon, Cobain, etc.) would blow Dimebag, Van Halen, Hendrix, etc., out of the water as far as I'm concerned. Hendrix doesn't exactly write the most complex, as in complexity with texture and feel, songs. The guitar playing is amazing, but many of his songs wouldn't translate very well to other instruments. This would be an entirely new argument, and one that would be much more subjective than just defining what a guitar God is, and then seeing which guitarists fit that criteria.

"Man this is total hersay, you have no idea who'll be remembered for what, you predicting the future here?? come on man, you forget that rage got ALOT of radio play and MTV coverage."

Well, earlier you said, "Hes good, dont get me wrong but i dont think 10 years from now there is gonna be anyone claiming "Tom Morello changed guitar playing forever"."

What makes your opinion on what will be remembered 10 years from now anymore valid than mine regarding which band will be remembered longer? I'm projecting from right now. Rage is credited by most for bringing the rap/rock combo to a new level and helped spawn Korn, Limp, Linkin' Park, etc. Quick, name for me the bands that are multi-platinum selling artists that were spawn from Pantera. Are they on the level with what has come from Rage?

I never said which one was better. I merely said which one will be remembered longer and at a higher level. Rage sold more records and had a much bigger impact on mainstream music than Pantera. Care to disagree? In your next paragraph you started explaining why Rage is more known and sold more records. You are backing up my point that they will likely be remembered long after Pantera.

If you'd like to disagree, tell me why I'm wrong. If you want to say Pantera is better than Rage and Audioslave, that is cool. That is a personal choice. But claiming Pantera will be remembered more than Rage to mainstream music, well, that's just incorrect and your arguments even backed that point up.

"Im sorry but your never gonna convience me that someone who wrote Jump, Hot for teacher, and other 80s hits (someone who should be in say Montley Crues league) belongs next to true legends like Hindrix, Beck, Clapton, Vahn, and Page."

Define what a guitar God is and explain how those guys are above Van Halen. He has as much skill as any of them, and was more influential on general guitarist than Vaughn or Beck with ease. There is a reason he has won so many "best guitarist" votes in magazines and usually comes in second or third behind Hendrix and Page for guitar polls about who is the best guitarist of all time. Those results alone show most guitarists rank him as a guitar God IMO.

I don't mean this as a pissing match argument, just a discussion. I would drop a ton of F-bombs and insults if I was just trying to yell at you and insult you lol.

[NirvanaNole]

Arioch,

I'm bumping this thread back up in case you missed my reply. If you don't want to reply, that is cool; however, I'd hate to have wasted my time typing all of that and have you miss it because those two fucking posters keep posting 800 new threads every day.

For the love of God, some people need to take the horror threads to the modern horror board to leave other non-horror threads on the first page of the general discussion board for more than half a day!