Scream vs. Ringu

[The STE]

ok, this might have been done before, but I found nothing on the search thing (*cough cough*), so I'll do it again

In the mid-late 90's, two movies were released in two different countries that had major short-term effects on the horror movie genres of the respective countries, and long-term effects that, while not as major as the immediate effects, are still palpable.

The United States got a little movie called Scream in '96. It started a trend in horror movies in the US of 'cute', self-refferential dialogue, casting popular actors and actresses in the major roles, and (sometimes successful) tries at being witty. Being scary was replaced with individual "scares" (what was once referred to as a "jump"). This didn't necessarily make the movie bad, but it certainly didn't help. The trend produced movies ranging from pretty good (Scream 2, Wrong Turn a while later, etc) from damn awful (IKWYDLS, Urban Legends). Scream its self was very good (IMO), but was bogged down by the movies that used it as a template.

2 years later, Japan got Ringu. Ringu was nigh the pollar opposite of Scream. Scream went for humor and jumps, whereas Ringu went for drama and long drawn out periods of dread or out-and-out fright. It started a trend in Japan of supernatural-type horror, deliberately creepy children (as opposed to the Haley Joel Osment type where it's unintentional), and scariness built on atmosphere. The last one is a bad idea. Atmosphere is impossible to obtain on purpose, a movie just has it. It's like charisma, either a person has it or not. The trend produced one of the greatest movies of all time, Kaïro, and some other notably good ones (Dark Water, from the same director) but also produced some pretty bad ones (Phone and A Frightful School Horror). Ringu its self is in general thought of as a classic, and usually isn't lumped in with similar movies that have come after it, though those are usually compared to Ringu.

The two movies came out around the same time ('bout two years apart), and, for better or worse, revolutionized the individual countries' horror movie industries. The style of the movies shaped the way horror movies were made, if only for a short period of time. The movies had basically the same effect for their respective countries. But their legacies will probably be very different. Scream is constantly lumped in with similar movies, whereas Ringu, as previoiusly stated, is its own movie, and has more or less become the measuring stick.

But you already know all this. So what's the point? Well, what if it was the other way around? What if Ringu was The Ring first? Not the "The Ring" we got that was a remake, but the original. And don't give me that "well, a movie like that would never be made in the states" or "Hollywood would ruin it" because that's not what I mean. It would obviously have different actors and crews and all that, but if it were exactly the same other than that, and was an American movie? Same with Scream. Change who had written it, change the director and actors and all that, but keep it the same and have it be a Japanese movie. We didn't get Scream, we got Ringu/The Ring. They didn't get Ringu, they got Scream (Screamu?) What kind of long-term effects would they have THEN? Would the US have gotten a horror renaissance? Would Japan's horror industry be in the same kind of slump ours has gotten? Or were there more variables in the respective direction they took?



And even if this idea did suck, it's better than the parade-o-shit this folders been getting lately




EDIT: Yeah, put this in Modern Movies if you want

[urgeok]

its hard to compare oranges to apples ... this is just too topical.
I know you dont like it - but Ringu - would not have been Ringu in north america .. not that Hollywood would have ruined it .. it just wouldnt exist.

if ringu was released in america ans an american production ...it would have the same effect it has now ... only a select few would see it. North Americs (general audiences) arent ready for an atmospheric horror like that ... they want the Screams, and the Urban Legends ..etc.

A good example is the Grudge. Same Director .. same style as the origional ... and people are panning it left right and centre.
Maybe it doesnt seem right to the real fans .. the american actors cant pull it off ... and the joe public cant handle it because it is too
dreamy and non linear. Most people hate that. They need something they can follow.

I think an American Ringu would be a cult favorite with true fans but thats it.

A Scream in Japan .. not sure how that would have affected anything. It wasnt a revelation like Ringu, it was a rejuvination, or ressurection.

It was successful because it payed homage to the slasher films of the 80's - it found its audience and it was the same audience thats always been here. I'm not discounting the film, i thought it was pretty clever (the 1st one) and i can hardly blame the filmmakers that tried to cash in as the demand was there.

I dont know the japanese demographic enough to know how something like that would have been received ... are they traditionally fans of the slasher genre ?
I would suspect not because it certainly doesnt seem to be the kind of film they embrace. They prefer something far more stylish.

i dont know if that answers the questions you posed in your post.

if I did understand it correctly then i think my answer is that if you 'switched movies' neither would have had the impact they did because of the particular cultural tastes of the respective countries.

[The STE]

So, IYO, the cultures of the countries were a major part of the impact that the movies had on the industries?

Yeah, that makes sense. Japanese culture was a major part of the Ringu movie.

Perhaps a direct movie switch wasn't the best example...

[urgeok]

absolutely ....

look at the italian films - similar to the Japanese they really prefer style over substance.
The major directors borrow from each other - work with each other .. have developed a very distinct style.


american horror cinema (with a few exceptions) is almost devoid of style.

its all about playing it safe ... use the formula that appeals to the lowest common denominator. Americans traditionally prefer quantity over quality ..

more kills, more boobs, more this and that ...
they are too impatient to let momentum build (the excorcist 3 is a glaring exception to this rule)

this reflects the cultural differences between america and europe ..

from time to time someone breaks the mold - in both places .. and those always make for a more interesting film ...

[The STE]

Originally posted by urgeok
absolutely ....

look at the italian films - similar to the Japanese they really prefer style over substance.
The major directors borrow from each other - work with each other .. have developed a very distinct style.


american horror cinema (with a few exceptions) is almost devoid of style.

its all about playing it safe ... use the formula that appeals to the lowest common denominator. Americans traditionally prefer quantity over quality ..

more kills, more boobs, more this and that ...
they are too impatient to let momentum build (the excorcist 3 is a glaring exception to this rule)

this reflects the cultural differences between america and europe ..

from time to time someone breaks the mold - in both places .. and those always make for a more interesting film ...

Based on the evidence presented by the effects these movies had, breaking the mold generally just creates a new mold. Not saying molds shouldn't be broken, but the innovation doesn't last long. It's like a camera flash.


As for the style/substance part, one could make an argument that a lot of American horror is devoid of substance as well. But substance over style isn't a bad thing. If the substance works then style might not matter at all, or the style might just come naturally from the quality of the substance.

[newb]

I think its a cultural thing. A good example would be John Woo.His HK movies were masterpieces of style and substance.i.e. The Killer, Hard Boiled, Bullet in the Head, A Better Tomorrow. As soon as he went Hollywood his movies seemed to lose something in translation.

In this MTV age , here in the states, everything has to be bigger,louder and faster.

We still get a few independent gems once in a while, maybe the tide will turn, but I doubt it.

[urgeok]

Originally posted by The STE
Based on the evidence presented by the effects these movies had, breaking the mold generally just creates a new mold. Not saying molds shouldn't be broken, but the innovation doesn't last long. It's like a camera flash.


As for the style/substance part, one could make an argument that a lot of American horror is devoid of substance as well. But substance over style isn't a bad thing. If the substance works then style might not matter at all, or the style might just come naturally from the quality of the substance.

certainly - style over substance isnt a proven winner all the time ..
and it translates poorly in other markets.
Look at John Woo for example .. everything that worked in The Killer failed in Hard Target because he didnt understand the difference between the Chinese and american audience.
Corny doesnt work well here.
He found his balance in Face Off ..

substance over style works when you have a great cast .. you dont need the ultra-atmosphere or the reliance on the music because the performances work - or the great plot ...

Balance is the key ..

but back to the other point ... cultural differences are everything in cinema ... things that are trivial to us will have a greater meaning elsewhere ...
things that are corny to us are deep and meaningful elsewhere ..

When i think of Hong Kong ganster cinema for example .. as recently as the Woo films - they are still approaching the themes of friendship, women, etc from an american 1930's gangster film perspective. They are influenced by the US films but they were helplessly outdated.
The Japanese caught up to the US style and surpassed it - in a measured and methodical way.. sure they are atmospheric but they are very aware of their own formula too.

italian film .. well, they are a gem unto themselves .. they borrow from america but twist everything to suit their own origional (and entheusiastic) sensibilities ... which is probably why I like them the best ...

[urgeok]

Originally posted by newb
I think its a cultural thing. A good example would be John Woo.His HK movies were masterpieces of style and substance.i.e. The Killer, Hard Boiled, Bullet in the Head, A Better Tomorrow. As soon as he went Hollywood his movies seemed to lose something in translation.

In this MTV age , here in the states, everything has to be bigger,louder and faster.

We still get a few independent gems once in a while, maybe the tide will turn, but I doubt it.

strange minds think alike :)

[newb]

Originally posted by urgeok
certainly - style over substance isnt a proven winner all the time ..
and it translates poorly in other markets.
Look at John Woo for example .. everything that worked in The Killer failed in Hard Target because he didnt understand the difference between the Chinese and american audience.
Corny doesnt work well here.
He found his balance in Face Off ..

substance over style works when you have a great cast .. you dont need the ultra-atmosphere or the reliance on the music because the performances work - or the great plot ...

Balance is the key ..

but back to the other point ... cultural differences are everything in cinema ... things that are trivial to us will have a greater meaning elsewhere ...
things that are corny to us are deep and meaningful elsewhere ..

When i think of Hong Kong ganster cinema for example .. as recently as the Woo films - they are still approaching the themes of friendship, women, etc from an american 1930's gangster film perspective. They are influenced by the US films but they were helplessly outdated.
The Japanese caught up to the US style and surpassed it - in a measured and methodical way.. sure they are atmospheric but they are very aware of their own formula too.

italian film .. well, they are a gem unto themselves .. they borrow from america but twist everything to suit their own origional (and entheusiastic) sensibilities ... which is probably why I like them the best ...

We sometimes have the same thought in our heads urge.....that scares me.

[newb]

I'm afraid tomorrow is our turkey day here in the states. So I will be loading up on turkey and beer, waiting for the alcohol and tryptophan to kick in and pass out. Perhaps tomorrow night.










mmmmm...turkey salad sandwiches.