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Old 03-06-2011, 01:58 PM
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Are Snuff Movies real?

I started having a civilisedand intelligent debate about this which was on off topic on another thead. Because I thought it was interesting and the debate was objective etc I thought I'd move it here and get other peoples opinions.

Start of original debate: HERE

The last few bits:

Originally Posted by Fearonsarms View Post
I have been on other sites (not horror ones) where people claim to have seen a snuff because it was disguised as a horror film. I don't know if wheth they say is true but the fact that there is a market for this I find more disturbing rather than point the finger at the makers of Martyrs and I spit on your grave which was the only mistake I made.


FEROX13:
I would say not as 'Real Snuff Movies'* don't exist. No snuff movie had ever been found. There are rumours that '3 Men 1 Hammer' was meant to be made to sell but this was never proven. There have been an other couple of failed attempts at doing them but where these attempts already had a market for their product was never determined.

That childporn ring that was broken up in Russia were siad to be dealing kiddie snuff too according to early media reports but again nothing came of this..

But then again maybe I'm wrong - if I am and those people on that forum are telling the truth then I would advice them to contact Al Goldstein - the editor of SCrew MAgazine. He'll give them $1,000,000 if they can produce the goods.

*I'm, using the FBI definition - That the murder has to be done solely for the purpose of making a film that will be later sold for profit.

siorai:
Do I think snuff exists? Most definitely. I see absolutely no reason for it not to exist. There is a market for anything you can imagine and a multitude of things you cannot. The market may not be big, but it's there. If there are sites dedicated to real gore like ogrish or the long gone murman, there is a market for snuff. If you want to get realistic, there's a good portion of the population who are already quite interested in snuff. They're the people who rabidly watch the news every night for updates on the various wars around the world, they're the people who go to sites and watch videos released of beheadings, they're the people who slow down and rubberneck at accidents on the side of the road. Sure, it's not the true definition of snuff in that people aren't being killed for the sake of being filmed, but it's still real people really dying on film on people are actively searching it out to watch it.
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Old 03-06-2011, 02:01 PM
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Fearonsarms's:
I'll keep this to the discussion. I agree with ferox13 that I don't believe a commercially marketed snuff film exits. Yet anyway. I have no idea whether what people were saying was true I just think it is worrying that they are boasting about it. I reiterate what I said earlier in that it seems to be a dark side to human nature for some people to seek out a snuff film. I hope that they are reffering to the banned film "snuff" on IMDB. I haven't seen this myself but IMDB and others proved this was a hoax Take something like "Hostel" could such a thing really happen? Money does talk its own language. But I do think that the fact anyone who tried to market a snuff film would be instantly prosecuted is a huge factor. But if they could get away with it I think someone would actually do it.

Ferox13 View:
Do you really think so? How do you explain not a single film ever turning up, especially when police and law enforcement agencies have uncovered the most heinous types of child porn but never a commerially made snuff film.



siorai :

I just can't see any reason why it wouldn't. Like I said there is a market for anything and everything. Obviously people are interested in seeing violence. This board is absolute proof of that. Of course most of us prefer to keep the violence fake. But do you really think that there has never been someone who not only wanted to see a real death, but also had the means to make it happen? I fully agree with Fearonsarms in that "Money does talk its own language." With enough money at your disposal, anything is possible.

As for the films not turning up, I'm not sure. It's quite possible that some already have, but they get ignored as fakes. Look at Guinea Pig and Charlie Sheen. It's entirely within the realm of possibility to have the situation reversed. Someone finds a real snuff film, turns it in, and the authorities just think it's fake. It's pretty amazing how realistic films can be nowadays so the line of knowing if it's real or not can definitely get blurry. For example, August Underground's Mordum. There's some pretty damn realistic stuff happening in there. Bits and pieces could very easily be thought of as being real. So what's to say someone couldn't see something real and just determine (probably because they deep down don't want to admit the real possibility) that it's just another Mordum-type flick?

The other reason could very well be the hardcore illegality of them. You couldn't just stumble upon something like this. You would really have to know people who trust you implicitly to find out about this. It's not like you go to a party and happen to meet a coke dealer who's willing to upfront tell you he's a coke dealer and immediately sell you some. So I doubt you would see films just randomly being shown or loaned out to friends. It would be a very tight-knit circle of people involved. Look at child porn. It didn't just start within the last couple decades. It's only recently that it's come to the forefront and people are finding more and more of it mainly due to the internet. It's far too easy for people to screw up online and say something to the wrong person. The illusion of anonymity can make people say things they wouldn't face to face. It wouldn't surprise me if within the next 5-10 years we see real snuff be revealed for the same reasons.

Sure, it would be nice to believe that something as heinous as filming the death of someone for pure profit couldn't exist in this world, but this isn't the land of My Little Pony or the Care Bears unfortunately.
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Old 03-06-2011, 02:02 PM
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siorai :
I just can't see any reason why it wouldn't. Like I said there is a market for anything and everything.


Ferox13:
This seems alot like the 'logical dictates it so' arguement. I would agree that there are an infinate amount of planets out there and common sense is that at least one must have alien life..

Thats how I feel but there isn't a single shred of proof to say otherwise until then I remain sceptical. Thats not to say I know 100% that there is no Alien life but so far but lack of evidence seems to prove otherwise. That is how I feel about snuff films..

siorai:
The other reason could very well be the hardcore illegality of them. You couldn't just stumble upon something like this. You would really have to know people who trust you implicitly to find out about this. It's not like you go to a party and happen to meet a coke dealer who's willing to upfront tell you he's a coke dealer and immediately sell you some.


Ferox13:
Of course not. But you do know that the 2 major ways of the police catching people is 1) In the Act of the Crime and 2) When some one informs on them.

The 2nd is how they catch most drug dealers. They catch some one in possession and they get them to roll over on who gave them the drugs. This is how criminals operate. They rat each other out to save their skins.

I find it hard to believe that if Snuff Movies were being made then there was no one in the circle of production/knowledge who was caught (for any crime - unrelated or otherwise) and was willing to roll over on the fact if they lessened charges...

Keep in mind a snuff movie has never been confiscated by any Law Inforcement agencies EVER...So to get some one inform on knowledge of a real snuff ring would be a Holy Grail of collars...

And theres always that $1,000,000 dollar reward if you can show proof to Mr Goldstein. Do you really think any criminal enterprise would be so air tight..
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Old 03-06-2011, 02:04 PM
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I think its worth repeating as there is good arguements both sides and I didn't want to derail the Worse Movie thread...

I love Urban Legend stuff so I'd love the rest of the people here to give their 2 cents.
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Old 03-06-2011, 02:25 PM
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I really don't think true snuff films exist. If I remember correctly in order to qualify as a true snuff film, the actress/actor has to come in thinking they're starring in a porno or horror film and then find out after the fatal blow that they've been deceived. There has never been a documented case of this happening. Like Siorai said, there's no reason to assume this couldn't happen, but I don't think it has.

As for the argument that making violent films leads to a progression to commit violent acts, that is hogwash. Violent horror films and video games have always made very convenient scapegoats for real life crimes, but the fact of the matter is atrocities have been commited by sick individuals since the dawn of man and they needed no movie as a trigger. I don't think sitting in your room watching Saw or August Underground for days at a time is going to turn you into a violent person (it might give you quite a headache though).
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Old 03-06-2011, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWickerFan View Post
I really don't think true snuff films exist. If I remember correctly in order to qualify as a true snuff film, the actress/actor has to come in thinking they're starring in a porno or horror film and then find out after the fatal blow that they've been deceived.
Well I was using the FBI definition:

That the murder has to be done solely for the purpose of making a film that will be later sold for profit.


As for the 2ns thing you mentioned it's a whole different kettle of fish - and is actually what I did my Degree dissertation on..
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Old 03-06-2011, 02:43 PM
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A decent low budget indie documentary touches on this subject: S&Man. I found it pretty interesting and I believe it may still be on Netflix insta-que.
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Old 03-06-2011, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sistinas666 View Post
A decent low budget indie documentary touches on this subject: S&Man. I found it pretty interesting and I believe it may still be on Netflix insta-que.
I've seen a few Docs on the matter but few with any real insight but I've not seen that. I'll try find it..

So after seeing it what was your opinion?
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Old 03-06-2011, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferox13 View Post
Well I was using the FBI definition:

That the murder has to be done solely for the purpose of making a film that will be later sold for profit.


As for the 2ns thing you mentioned it's a whole different kettle of fish - and is actually what I did my Degree dissertation on..
Okay, that makes sense. It also makes it clear that things like Faces Of Death and videos made by Lake/Ng or Bittaker/Norris don't qualify as snuff films.

Shouldn't have read that entire thread. I saw the issue come up and lost my head.:o
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Old 03-06-2011, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWickerFan View Post
Okay, that makes sense. It also makes it clear that things like Faces Of Death and videos made by Lake/Ng or Bittaker/Norris don't qualify as snuff films.

Shouldn't have read that entire thread. I saw the issue come up and lost my head.:o
Yeah they were serial killers who were killiong anyway..the recording was just a by product..And I don't think Lake/Ng actually recorded the killing..and Bittaker/Norris were just audio but that is not the point any way..
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